Marine Head Update Time

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Re: Poop system alternatives

Oh dear, Diana...we need to talk!
I have it from Ms Hall that the best (and only) thing to put into the holding tank is nitrate, which effectively turns it all into dried dog poop on the lawn, which doesn't stink because it's dried-out in the air.

I have never said that nitrates are the "best and only" thing to put in holding tanks. My own company introduced the tank product that's now Raritan K.O., which is a live aerobic bacteria product...and then there's aeration, can elliminate the need for ANY product in the tank. I've recommended all of them.

And you don't have this quite right either:
I provided them (vent lines) with rigid PVC tubes to the top corners of the tank, one on each side. The PVC prevents them from sagging, which would create a low spot that will collect water and sludge and therefore stink. Ms Hall says sailboats can benefit from this most of all because the wind is usually to one side of you-- thus blowing into the vent on that side, through the tank and off to leeward where you couldn't smell it if it stunk.
Not even close to anything I've ever said, Diana...<sigh>.... The purpose of double venting is NOT to push odor out the lee side of the boat, it's to improve the supply of oxygen to the tank to prevent any odor from occurring. And the wind isn't coming from the side of most sailboats when they're underway or on a mooring or an anchor...not only sailboats but ALL boats have their HEADS into the wind...which is why I love running the tank vent forward to thru-hull near the bow whenever possible.

But this is the worst of all:
I am plumbing my toilet with a line from the freshwater tank, through a one-way valve, up to the loop and down to a valve that lets it into the seawater-flush line. By opening this valve and shutting off the seacock I can use my (copious) freshwater supply for the head. Best of all I can still flush the toilet when the boat is out of the water-- which is a great benefit to liveaboards!

Don't even THINK of doing that! NO toilet designed to use sea water should ever be connected to the onboard fresh water system because it cannot be done without risk of contaminating the fresh water supply with e-coli, damage to the toilet or both...and EVERY toilet mfr warns against it in all toilet installation instructions. Your plumbing plan does nothing to prevent the migration of bacteria from the toilet bowl into the fresh water supply.

I don't get Peggy Hall's idea of stopping up the sink when the seawater line is open.
A plug in the sink may be needed to prevent the toilet from pulling in air through the sink that prevents the pump from priming.

I'm not trying to beat you up, Diana...but I can't let bad advice attributed to me pass without correcting it. I'll be glad to help you set a system that, with minimal maintenance, will be trouble and odor free.

 

[Genkigary]

Into year two with our Air Head composting head on our H-34. We love it! No odor. No pump out. No more holding tank. No more valves, levers and expensive tubing. If we ever get another boat the first thing we'll do is to install another composter.
The holding tank was the source of most of the odor. It sat outside for a few weeks before I put it out with the recycling 'cause the odor was so bad.

 

[Fireball505]

I may be wrong but if you are discharging overboard you cannot put your boat in a No Discharge Zone. I am told that the Florida Keys are totally NDZ and many more popular areas are working hard to get the same classification. So while those areas are still few and far between, they are becoming less so and they already comprise some of the most beautiful boating areas that exist.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I may be wrong but if you are discharging overboard you cannot put your boat in a No Discharge Zone. I am told that the Florida Keys are totally NDZ and many more popular areas are working hard to get the same classification. So while those areas are still few and far between, they are becoming less so and they already comprise some of the most beautiful boating areas that exist.

You're half right. The FL Keys are all NDZ, but that doesn't mean you can't take your boat there unless you have a holding tank...it just means you can't use the toilet on your boat unless it flushes into a holding tank. FL law requires all boats that are permanently moored in NDZ waters be equipped with tanks, but transients can put a portapotty aboard for use while in an NDZ.

 

[Fireball505]

Hi Peggy, According to the USCG

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5213/msd.asp

Portable toilets.
"Use of portable toilets in combination with a direct discharge toilet is not permitted. Vessel owners may elect to remove installed toilets and use instead portable toilets. For vessels having a portable toilet, all non-compliant fixed toilets should be removed unless impractical or unsafe in which case such devices should be rendered permanently inoperable."

This may have changed or maybe I am reading it wrong, but it sounds like you can't use a porta potty with an electra-san unless it has a holding tank. I may be misreading this and it would be helpful to get a clarification. I am not one who is in favor of many these laws. My understanding from the horses mouth is that the USCG wants to see a secured holding tank or no thru hulls at all. Local law enforcement on the other hand is pretty much left to their own devices as to what is legal and what isn't.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

That reg is only half the story... 33 CFR 159.7 "requirements for vessel operators" which lists the acceptable methods of "securing"a system is the other half:
_______
§ 159.7 Requirements for vessel operators. (a) No person may operate any vessel equipped with installed toilet facilities unless it is equipped with:
(1) An operable Type II or III device that has a label on it under § 159.16 or that is certified under § 159.12 or § 159.12a; or
(2) An operable Type I device that has a label on it under § 159.16 or that is certified under § 159.12, if the vessel is 19.7 meters (65 feet) or less in length.

(b) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3 or 140.4, the operator must secure each Type I or Type II device in a manner which prevents discharge of treated or untreated sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include—
(1) Closing the seacock and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking the seacock in the closed position;
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the closed position; or
(4) Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock or door handle key lock.



(c) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device in a manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include—
(1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position; or
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position.
___________

Nothing in that prohibits the use of a portapotty as long as the installed system--whatever it does or doesn't include--has been "secured"...which, on boats equipped with treatment devices can even include just locking the head door.

99.999% of water cops and USCG inspectors are fine with anything you do that demonstrates intent to comply...it's only if you should run into one that has an advanced case of Barney Fife Syndrome that you're like to have a problem.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I should have included...we're talking about TRANSIENT vessels who only need to hold waste temporarily. That's a different situation from a permanent setup. Canadian law on the Great Lakes is a good example...it prohibits portable toilets. "MSD" versions (permanently installed, fitted for pumpout) are acceptable, but not anything with a portable tank that could be dumped over the side. However, in 25 years, I've never heard of single US flagged boat with a portable potty that was denied entry into a Canadian port or cited for non-compliance.

That USCG bulletin really takes you way into the weeds, 'cuz a lot of it only applies to INSPECTED (commercial) vessels--not recreational--and requirements for equipment mfrs.

 

[Phil P]

Fresh Water Flush?

I've taken to heart the advice to flush with fresh water since replacing hoses and tank 2 years ago. I simply fill a bowl with fresh water and use that to flush and it's been working great. I just noticed someone's earlier post that it's somehow harmful to not run the fresh water through the pump (I have a Jabsco manual head). Been fine for a few years now as far as I can tell so wondering why this might be.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

It makes no difference in the tank whether the toilet is flushed with fresh or raw water...nor in the discharge line as long as it's rinsed out before the boat will sit. The only difference that flushing with fresh water can make is in the intake, pump and channel in the rim of the bowl, and because nothing that's added directly to the bowl is recirculated through the intake, just pouring clean fresh water into the bowl can't rinse out the pump, intake line and channel in the rim of the bowl.

None of which means that there aren't plenty of other good reasons to flush with fresh water, but you need a toilet that's designed to use pressurized fresh water to take advantage of any of 'em.

I just noticed someone's earlier post that it's somehow harmful to not run the fresh water through the pump (I have a Jabsco manual head). Been fine for a few years now as far as I can tell so wondering why this might be.

What's in the bowl only goes through the bottom part of the pump, so never bringing any water into it via the intake-which brings water into the top of the pump--means the the top part of the pump is always dry. Unless you're downright fanatical about keeping the toilet lubricated, that wears out seals, valves and o-rings...and I'd bet money that your toilet isn't nearly as efficient now as it was when the pump was new. It's just deteriorated so gradually that you haven't noticed it.

 

[Phil P]

Thanks much Peggy!