Main Trimming (new) hijack avoidance...

[rgranger]

I didn't want to hijack the other ongoing thread on trimming the main in heavy air.

Thanks Jackdaw.... I thought your illustration really help clarify things.

I was out in my new-2-me Hunter 26 last Sunday. It is a water ballast boat and water ballast is also new to me.... the first 10 degrees of heal come fast and easy.... so keeping her flatter is something I'm figuring out. I don't have a traveler. The mainsheet is mid-boom and terminates on the floor of the cockpit. We were healed over a fair amount at one point and I grabbed the sheet lines running from the boom to the cockpit sole and pulled them to windward manually (heft). The boat immediately picked up speed and flattended out. Of course I can't sail for very long hefting the sheet like that... I don't really want a traveler across my cockpit but maybe I can figure another way to get more twist in my sail.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I don't really want a traveler across my cockpit but maybe I can figure another way to get more twist in my sail.

We hear it all the time: "I don't want a traveler." Except for the fact that a traveler is one of the four elements of sail trim, sure, continue to think that way. Really. Nothing personal.

What you physically did was what a traveler actually does. You've already proven that not getting a traveler is an OPTION you have but at least now you know what you're missing.

As suggested in the other post, have you read Don Guillette's Sail Trim book? One of the best investments anyone can make to learn how to sail properly.

Your only other option is continue without one, but now you know what you're missing, but it may NOT be TWIST in your sail, since what you did was to flatten it out and depower it. The last thread discussed the two options.

I've seen boats like your arrangement. They are nice boats. But they have limitations.

Good luck.

 

[Gudenuph]

Would a traveler on the cockpit sole do the job with acceptable inconvenience? If tripping is a concern, elevate the surface of the cockpit sole to the top of the track with removable gratings.
Perhaps that would be Gudenuph, snicker.

 

[weinie]

Do you have a vang?
If so, you can keep the twist in check as you ease out the mainsheet in lieu of a traveler.

 

[markwbird]

Tightening the vang and easing the sheet would do the exact opposite of what we have been describing which is to center the boom while keeping the leech loose.

 

[markwbird]

Not having a traveler is a big disadvantage. I understand why you don't want one. In the way. One compromise might be to locate it at the seat level just aft of the companionway. That way you still get the full cockpit. This is how it is on a Hunter 25.5. Not sure how or what you would anchor it to but I will say that a traveler is a big help.

 

[weinie]

Tightening the vang and easing the sheet would do the exact opposite of what we have been describing which is to center the boom while keeping the leech loose.

I was just making the claim that vang sheeting is an alternative to using a traveler. (Note to avoid another battle here: I said alternative...not replacement for). And yes, not having a traveler would make the discussed method of depowering the main impossible. However, I just wanted to respectfully counter Stu; a traveler is useful but not necessary as long as you can adequately use the vang to control twist. Would I build a dedicated racing boat without one? No. Do I race my boat (somewhat) successfully without a traveler? Yes.

 

[Kermit]

I have a traveler that the previous owner installed. Uncle Crazy Dave has seen it and is not thrilled with the installation. He is not a fan of installing a traveler in the 26 or 260. Personally, I'm glad to have it but would have heeded his advice given the option. I don't see the hardware so much as a toe stumper as a trap for debris between the traveler and the companionway. I suggest contacting Dave. As you know, he's da man.

 

[Joe]

... I don't really want a traveler across my cockpit but maybe I can figure another way to get more twist in my sail.

The inconvenience of the traveler in the cockpit will be quickly forgiven as you relish the increased sailing performance it provides. If you run it across at seat level... you'll find yourself sitting on the windward coaming, leaning against the lifelines, watching the jib telltales, steering with a tiller extension in one hand and the traveler line in the other..... much, much more fun ....

 

[rgranger]

Do you have a vang?
If so, you can keep the twist in check as you ease out the mainsheet in lieu of a traveler.

Yes I have a vang..... and when I do as you suggested, the sail gets baggy and losses its shape. A traveler across the sole of the cockpit might be a good compromise. The traveler would be restricted some in its movement but would allow for some extra crontrol without mucking up the cockpit. It is a really wide cockpit so I'd have some room to play.

 

[Don Guillette]

I don't really want a traveler across my cockpit but maybe I can figure another way to get more twist in my sail.[/QUOTE]

I'm probably not telling you anything you don't know but the traveler has nothing to do with twist. The travelers only function is to control angle of attack. The boom vang is the primary control for twist. The secondary twist control is the mainsheet.

During a gust, I prefer to use the traveler to get the boat back on it's feet because the traveler does not change the shape of the sail. After the gust passes I merely place the traveler back in it's original position and sail merrily on my way. When you use the mainsheet to change the angle of attack you're also adjusting twist and to an extent draft position. If you don't have a traveler you're stuck with the mainsheet but a mate has to realize what else is happening while using the mainsheet.

Personally, I think the traveler is an essential sail trim control along with adjustable fairleads. Next in the essential line of sail trim controls is a functioning outhaul and a boom vang.

 

[njlarry]

On most boats, the vang is most effective downwind while the traveler is most effective upwind. Your wide cockpit would extend the traveler's useful range a lot.

 

[rgranger]

On most boats, the vang is most effective downwind ...

I've owned 8 different sailboats in my life and I still get surprised at how different the sailing characteristics can be... This Hunter 26 that I'm now figuring out seems to really suffer a lot if I forget to loosen the vang on a reach or when pointing. The sail pocket completely collapses and the boat heels over a lot.... loosen the vang and proper sail shape returns very noticeably... ... other boats I've had the vang's effect on sail shape was not as drastic.

The H26 also has fixed blocks for the genoa and they are rather inboard for my taste. The H26 has the genoa block inside the shrouds by almost a foot. I think the designer made that trade-off because the main is a bit larger than usual vs. the genoa for a sloop...so the H26 can afford to have the slot pinched a bit... and having the genoa inboard helps point a bit higher. So every decision is a trade-off I guess.

I do find the H26 points better than I would have expected and definitely better than my Balboa 26 would point and on a reach I have that big main to help me along, so the fixed genoa block was a comprimise on simplicity w/good pointing ability at the expense of a little speed on a reach... made up for a bit by the big main.

My avitar photo is my Balboa and you can see my genoa is sheeted nicely outboard.

 

[shemandr]

I'm not an anti-traveler-ite. But, I could argue that not every boat needs a traveler. I had a Mark 25, a C&C with a bendy fractional rig, that had a ridiculous traveler. It was on the cabin top (On a 25' boat), and had a range of about two feet. It was hard to access from the helm. I think I remember that the main sheet went to the cabin top or some other awkward arrangement. Finally I just removed all the lines and went with a double block on the end 1/3 of the boom. I believe the boat sailed much better from that point on. There are lots of dingy's without travelers that sail very well. Yes, a traveler has certain advantages in sail shaping but it's not essential to enjoy a good sail. We also were somewhat competitive in club level racing except for my incompetence.

 

[jwing]

My boat does not have a traveller and I understand anybody's reluctance to add a traveller to a boat. There are times that I just want to hang out on the lake with my gal without having a set of block and tackle getting in the way of a good lounge-day.

I started thinking that what I want is a removable mainsheet traveller. And if I thought of it, somebody is probably already making it. A simple DuckDuckGo search and voila: http://www.bartonmarine.com/products-removable-mainsheet-systems.asp

I haven't yet found somebody to sell one to me.

 

[Jackdaw]

However, I just wanted to respectfully counter Stu; a traveler is useful but not necessary as long as you can adequately use the vang to control twist. Would I build a dedicated racing boat without one? No. Do I race my boat (somewhat) successfully without a traveler? Yes.

Vang sheeting is an alternative to exactly HALF of the job a traveler does. Yes, Hardening the vang to current twist and then easing the sheet lowers the AOA of the main while not letting the boom rise and mess up twist. Traveler function #1 covered.

But. without a traveler there is NO WAY to move the boom to up the centerline (or above) without taking most or all of the twist out of the main. Ouch.

This is SO KEY for effective upwind work. Boom on the centerline is the default starting position for upwind work in most breezes. You can then set the twist independently with the boom in place. No way to do this without a traveler.

Two identical boats, one with traveler one without. Both sailed as optimally as possible, the traveler boat will crush the non-traveler boat upwind.

 

[BayMan]

I'm probably not telling you anything you don't know but the traveler has nothing to do with twist.

Uh oh. I thought I understood until I read this. I hate to question the guru but is it more accurate to say that the main sheet controls twist but you really need the traveler working with the main sheet to control twist while keeping the boom where you want it. Otherwise, yes you can impart twist with just the main sheet but you will also move the boom out at the same time.

Edit- that is until the boom is set beyond the limits of the traveler and then twist is controlled with the vang.

 

[Jackdaw]

is it more accurate to say that the main sheet controls twist but you really need the traveler working with the main sheet to control twist while keeping the boom where you want it.

YES

 

[weinie]

----
But. without a traveler there is NO WAY to move the boom to up the centerline (or above) without taking most or all of the twist out of the main. Ouch.

------

Two identical boats, one with traveler one without. Both sailed as optimally as possible, the traveler boat will crush the non-traveler boat upwind.

You will not have an argument from me on these points. On my current boat, with a german mainsheet and dyneema rigged bridal arrangement, I can get the boom pretty much on the centerline, albeit with all the twist pulled out as you stated. Of course, in lighter winds, when more twist is desirable, you do not want to strap in the main all the way. In that situation, I might point a bit lower to build up speed and apparent wind.

As a single/short hand sailor, I am okay with this compromise. Having a traveler mounted on the coach roof is nice to have....except you must leave the helm every time you need to use it! A bit of a pain on gusty days, especially on a larger boat!

Until they make an affordable "performance cruiser" with end boom sheeting and a accompanying traveler, I gotta stick with whats out there.

I crew on a J105 and my Jeanneau 349 has almost the same LWL. The J105 will blow my boat out of the water (though I put up a good fight when I see my skipper on the water without me) because of its much bigger sail area, less weight, and better controls such as a traveler, backstay, fine tuning mainsheet, etc. But sans crew, my boat is a lot more fun. On the J105, it takes five or six guys to work the boat to its potential. I can race spinnaker easily with just 1 other guy without wishing I had more crew on board (other than for rail meat).

 

[Wind River R41]

I have an end boom main sheet, and a vang on my Santana 22, along with adjusting back stay. Sailing solo most of the time, I've found that by tightening the rigging as the wind increases at all three points, the boat will point as high as 20 degrees off the apparent wind. With out all three, I fall off to about 35 degrees apparent. I don't race and never put winch handle on the winch. I often sail in 25 knots of wind with full main and 110 head sail using the main sheet to control heel when it gusts above that.