Main Trimming (new) hijack avoidance...

weinie · Dec 21, 2015

To continue my point....
OP is not in a hot rod pogo, he's in a hunter 26. Whether it is a good investment to install a traveler system in his current boat should really depend on boat itself as well as how he intends to sail it.

Jackdaw · Dec 21, 2015

weinie said:
As a single/short hand sailor, I am okay with this compromise.

All good. There's a 349 a few slips down from Kestrel and I love it. State of the art rig, and lots of dyneema and low friction rings in the latest French go-fast style. I get the trade-offs and Jeanneau probably called it right for their target markets. But I'd love to see one with a big long traveler at boom end. Oh yea, maybe tillers too.

Jackdaw · Dec 21, 2015

weinie said:
To continue my point....
OP is not in a hot rod pogo, he's in a hunter 26. Whether it is a good investment to install a traveler system in his current boat should really depend on boat itself as well as how he intends to sail it.

For sure. I'd don't really expect rgranger to go crazy with go-fast mods on his H26. But it's cool that he's thinking about them, and what the trade-offs are. Knowledge is power.

Stu Jackson · Dec 22, 2015

weinie said:
As a single/short hand sailor, I am okay with this compromise. Having a traveler mounted on the coach roof is nice to have....except you must leave the helm every time you need to use it! A bit of a pain on gusty days, especially on a larger boat!

weinie, you know we've had this discussion on this forum before, right?

This is where i say: "Don't be a slave behind the wheel."

I have a rather large boat, and only stand behind the wheel when leaving or returning to the dock or running downwind in heavy air and quartering seas. The rest of the time the ap is driving and I'm in front of the wheel, easy to reach my traveler control lines.

Sure, everybody's different. One of our skippers simply made his traveler control lines a lot longer and he uses them behind his wheel.

Your boat, your choice.

Point simply being that cabintop traveler locations do not necessarily limit sail controls.

weinie · Dec 22, 2015

I gotcha Stu!
But I personally aim to minimize my AP use as much as possible and frankly, having all the controls that you need by the helm is great if it is well designed. Why run around if you don't have to? If I wanted to go to the gym I'd go to the gym! Besides, would you really want me to risk spilling my martini on my sperrys, my good man? (typed while twirling my handlebar mustache).

Here's what I remember from sailing my catalina solo:

1. Tack the boat through the wind and trim the new jib sheet.
2. Get the boat on proper course to build speed...Main is now luffing as traveler car is to leeward... boat is slowing.
3. Go forward and move traveler windward.
4. Boat points up from change in center of effort.. possibly too far into wind and stalling.
5. Go back and adjust course. Try to regain lost boat speed.
6. Traveler is too far to windward to build speed... must drop traveler down a bit.
7. Go back to helm, get speed, point higher
8. Go forward move traveler car up.
9. Go helm and steer.

(ok...maybe I exaggerate a little... but my point stands).

Now, with a dedicated main trimmer this is not an issue! And, really, there's no really good, clean way to run the traveler lines aft.

Now picture a boat with no traveler. The main is will have the same trim on the next tack as it did on the last. It's self tacking!!!! heheheh

On my boat, I simply tack the jib and steer! The primary winches are quite close to the wheels. No need to let go of the helm. The boat is always pointed where I want it to be and doesn't waver. It's fast and it's easy and I'm not running around or fapootzing with the AP. My tacks are clean and fast and I don't have to move my lazy ass too much!

jwing · Dec 22, 2015

I wrote to Barton Marine, inquiring about a removable traveler system dealer in the USA. Here is the quick reply. I'm impressed with their service:

Hello Mr Wing

This is a relatively new product and not a regular stocking item. We have all the components in our warehouse in Connecticut and I will list them here for you. Wade Dale is our area representative, he can advise on the best Dealer to approach.

The standard length beam track is 1m and maximum unsupported span is 600mm for a 19ft boat. If over this span, then you will need to consider adding a pelican hook arrangement as attached.

Parts in stock are as follows, with retail pricing:
20 101 traveller car $194.95

20 110 pair end fittings $129.45

20 003 1m track length $93.45

20 112 pair sheave cages for end fittings $47.45

20 117 complete traveller cleat plate assembly $172.45
I can ship the pair of end plates 20 090 with our next shipment, retail price $290.45, also let me know if you are going to require a longer length of beam track.

Kind regards
Christian Brewer

The system that Mr. Brewer quoted is for a small boat; mine is 19'. Wade Dales email: wdale@oceanmark.com
I wrote back to Mr. Brewer and explained that the prices he quoted totaled more than I paid for my boat, trailer, and motor.

Stu Jackson · Dec 22, 2015

weinie, good one! Running back and forth? Hmmm, all of a few feet, but I get your drift.

I always drop the traveler before I tack. 1) less work 2) no pulling it up after the tack 3) less work See a theme here?

I love to sail, too, but don't consider the ap taking anything away. Most of the time ours is off, too, since the boat sails itself so well.

weinie · Dec 22, 2015

Dr

Stu Jackson said:
weinie, good one! Running back and forth? Hmmm, all of a few feet, but I get your drift.

I always drop the traveler before I tack. 1) less work 2) no pulling it up after the tack 3) less work See a theme here?

I love to sail, too, but don't consider the ap taking anything away. Most of the time ours is off, too, since the boat sails itself so well.

Dropping the traveler before tacking is a great way to kill speed. Right when you need it the most! Plus you're pushing your bow the wrong way by doing that! (assuming the AP takes a few seconds to correct)

Don't get me wrong... I'm not a purist... I use my AP. Martinis don't shake themselves ya know!

Stu Jackson · Dec 22, 2015

nope, my jib is my driver, I lose very little and it all happens quite quickly. Your boat, your choice. Just suggesting other ideas for readers.

Jackdaw · Dec 22, 2015

rgranger said:
My other sail control issue with the hunter 26 is the genoa block. I have a fixed block system. It is very far inboard compared to other boats I've sailed. I think I understand the reasons Hunter made that trade-off... the sail controls on the H26 are all very easy to work.... even reefing single hand on the H26 is easy...but... I was thinking something like this would allow me to keep the advantage of an inboard sheet block when working to windward and get a more open slot when on a reach.

Well I suppose they would. But there is a better reason to have angled tracks like the middle image, even on a boat with a fixed sized headsail like yours. Moving the jib car forward and back allows you to change the twist of the headsail. This is just as important as setting twist on the main. Its amazing how few sailors do it. I assume its because 98% of boats do not have remotely adjustable Genoa cars on their tracks. That makes adjusting for twist a royal pain. I cannot image sailing a boat without them. The slight angle of the track keeps the sail at the optimal sheeting angle (9-10 degrees - depending on the boat and designer) no matter where the car is.

For what you are looking for, best use an outhauler system, or reaching sheets. PS - if in theory you DID want to use tracks for reaching angles, the track would be straight across the boat, not angled.

normofthenorth · Jan 4, 2016

Jackdaw said:
Vang sheeting is an alternative to exactly HALF of the job a traveler does. Yes, Hardening the vang to current twist and then easing the sheet lowers the AOA of the main while not letting the boom rise and mess up twist. Traveler function #1 covered.

But. without a traveler there is NO WAY to move the boom to up the centerline (or above) without taking most or all of the twist out of the main. Ouch.

This is SO KEY for effective upwind work. Boom on the centerline is the default starting position for upwind work in most breezes. You can then set the twist independently with the boom in place. No way to do this without a traveler.

Two identical boats, one with traveler one without. Both sailed as optimally as possible, the traveler boat will crush the non-traveler boat upwind.

Jackdaw, I agree completely EXCEPT that there's a trick that reverses your answer - from NO WAY to WAY!
I race 15' Albacore-class dinghies with some success, and believe me, my competitors and I REALLY care about sail shape and trim, including mainsail twist. AND I mostly race in Toronto, so we race a lot in moderate and light winds. BUT, many decades ago, all the serious Albacore racers threw away their mainsheet travelers, and I've only seen them on antiques and orphan boats.
Sure, we've got powerful mainsheets and super powerful vangs. And you're right, that arrangement cannot give you tight trim with loose twist (high centered boom) WITH A STANDARD MAINSHEET! But we've all replaced our simple centered mainsheet with one that's BRIDLED, and that solves the problem! The line from the mainsheet block goes to mid-boom, and has only moderate effect on boom position on either axis (and we usually skip the block and sheet straight from the boom when sailing off the wind). But the heavy lifting is done by the opposite end of the mainsheet, which is split into two tails, each attached far outboard. (Ours are aft, coming out of the boom end.)
With any breeze at all, the windward tail is tight, and the leeward tail hangs limp. The effect is identical to having a self-tacking traveler that automatically shifts to the windward rail.
That would create excessive twist most of the time, but that's where the super strong vang comes in. (Most of us use 16:1, even strong guys - on a 15' dinghy!)
Within a huge trim range, the mainsheet ONLY controls TRIM, and the vang is purely for twist (and mast bend, actually - no backstay!).
If the mainsheet is overtightened, the leeward tail comes tight and the sheet pulls straight down, killing the main's twist. But until that point (which we generally avoid once we get good at this), the two controls are pure and distinct, each doing a different job.
I haven't designed a keelboat version of this arrangement - yet! (We're shopping for a keelboat now!) And I've got nothing against travelers. But with the right hardware and geometry, it IS possible to get a twisted main sheeted at the centerline without one.
Even with this arrangement, when the wind really fades, the weight of the boom alone can over-flatten a main. But you've all got topping lifts or boom-kickers - and engines! ;-)

Jackdaw · Jan 4, 2016

normofthenorth said:
Jackdaw, I agree completely EXCEPT that there's a trick that reverses your answer - from NO WAY to WAY!
I race 15' Albacore-class dinghies with some success, and believe me, my competitors and I REALLY care about sail shape and trim, including mainsail twist. AND I mostly race in Toronto, so we race a lot in moderate and light winds. BUT, many decades ago, all the serious Albacore racers threw away their mainsheet travelers, and I've only seen them on antiques and orphan boats.
Sure, we've got powerful mainsheets and super powerful vangs. And you're right, that arrangement cannot give you tight trim with loose twist (high centered boom) WITH A STANDARD MAINSHEET! But we've all replaced our simple centered mainsheet with one that's BRIDLED, and that solves the problem! The line from the mainsheet block goes to mid-boom, and has only moderate effect on boom position on either axis (and we usually skip the block and sheet straight from the boom when sailing off the wind). But the heavy lifting is done by the opposite end of the mainsheet, which is split into two tails, each attached far outboard. (Ours are aft, coming out of the boom end.)
With any breeze at all, the windward tail is tight, and the leeward tail hangs limp. The effect is identical to having a self-tacking traveler that automatically shifts to the windward rail.
That would create excessive twist most of the time, but that's where the super strong vang comes in. (Most of us use 16:1, even strong guys - on a 15' dinghy!)
Within a huge trim range, the mainsheet ONLY controls TRIM, and the vang is purely for twist (and mast bend, actually - no backstay!).
If the mainsheet is overtightened, the leeward tail comes tight and the sheet pulls straight down, killing the main's twist. But until that point (which we generally avoid once we get good at this), the two controls are pure and distinct, each doing a different job.
I haven't designed a keelboat version of this arrangement - yet! (We're shopping for a keelboat now!) And I've got nothing against travelers. But with the right hardware and geometry, it IS possible to get a twisted main sheeted at the centerline without one.
Even with this arrangement, when the wind really fades, the weight of the boom alone can over-flatten a main. But you've all got topping lifts or boom-kickers - and engines! ;-)

Nice. And nice description. I agree with that for smaller boats. The j70 rolls like that, and the super-tasty Seascape 24 does as well. You're right you need a wicked vang. Some resort to a GNAV to help. The Seascape.

normofthenorth · Jan 4, 2016

Thanks. Our bridle is wider than the one in your diagram - as far outboard as possible. And we have the bridle's Y hitting or even entering the aft boom block. Both changes make the sheet-tail angle more horizontal. As long as the block is big enough (and swivel blocks work better, don't ask me why!), the lazy leeward tail doesn't cause tangles.
I wouldn't think it'd be hard to rig 2:1 tails, which should accommodate some good-sized boats. Don't forget that the sheet doesn't have to handle very high loads when the pull is horizontal, and the vang does the hard job!

HEINZIR · Jan 20, 2016

My apologies if I have missed any reference to this arrangement in previous posts. I would like to get your comments on another way to rig the main without the inconveniences of a traveler: Dual Mainsheets. This has worked well for me for the last dozen or so years on my 1974 23' Venture of Newport cutter. Like many 70s trailer sailors, my boat came with end boom sheeting and the notoriously inefficient Crosby rig. I wanted the performance advantages of a traveler but could find no convenient/acceptable place to mount one, at least not one that was affordable for me. The dual main sheet arrangement lets me position the boom in virtually any position. It adds just one additional line to the main sheet arrangement as opposed to two for a conventional traveler. Yes, I do have a powerful vang; in fact, I bent the boom with it and had to decrease its power somewhat.

I did not originate the attached drawing; I borrowed it from another forum a long time ago. This is where I got the idea and decided to try the dual main sheets. So far, so good.

Comments please?

HEINZIR · Jan 20, 2016

rgranger said:
Sure... why not. I can see the utility of something like that. From your personal experience, did it improve the performance of your rig?

Absolutely! I think.
I generally don't race and so do not have any long term results to verify. I did trailer the boat from Minneapolis down to the Havasu Pocket Cruisers Convention in Arizona several winters ago. I didn't win but came in about 46th out of a fleet of around 150 boats. Not too shabby for the first formal race I have ever participated in in over 40 years of sailing. The second race I entered was a "Manufacturers' Cup" and I sailed against only other Macgregor/Ventures: 22, 25, 26d, 26s, 26x, 26m and (wait for it)

I WON!!!

In only the second race I had ever entered.