Low-Stretch Halyards actually worth it for cruising?

[PaulDaniel]

For those of you who have switched between polyester and dyneema halyards on the same boat, what kind of performance increase/decrease did you see (measured in % of speed or boat speed in knots at a certain windspeed)? I just replaced my halyards recently and spent a bunch of money on dyneema halyards. I'm considering perhaps just getting polyester halyards next time. But I'd love to hear feedback from those who have tried both (preferably on the same boat).

And some sail-theory:
The elasticity difference between polyester and dyneema seems to come into play when sailing upwind and the sail is dynamically loaded (gusts). If the loads were completely static, there would not be a benefit from low stretch lines. And it matter mores when sailing upwind because of how halyard tension affects draft. To the extent you would want halyard tension to change in a puff, you would probably want to increase halyard tension in order to maintain draft amount and position. A stretchy halyard does the opposite, potentially causing the draft to increase, move aft, and increase heel. But how pronounced is this effect? It seems like low stretch halyard is an expensive solution to a niche problem.

 

[PaulDaniel]

And to put the price into perspective: I spent $500 on 8mm Marlow D2 SK78 Racing halyards for my Catalina 270. Polyester halyards would have been $125. Those prices include tax. So the cost of going with dyneema over polyester was $375 (or $187.50 per sail). So not the end of the world. But that's almost $400. I would say the boat and trailer together are worth around $25k. The cost of maintenance and wetslip might be $2.5k per year (I have a good deal on the wetslip). If you capitalize that annual expense to a present value expense at 10% annual return, it would be a $25k present value expense. So that is a total present value expense of $50k. A $375 halyard upgrade is about 0.75% of that. So you could ask the question, "Does dyneema halyards represent a 0.75% or greater increase in joy of boat ownership?".

 

[BarryL]

Hello,

I don't think you'll be able to gather any data regarding performance improvements, the difference is probably too small to accurately measure.

A few thoughts from me
Halyards should last a long time, like 10+ years
How are your sails? If you have older dacron sails, low stretch halyards are a waste of money because the sail will stretch during a gust.
As you wrote, the only time the low stretch line makes a difference is when the wind is puffy / gusty. Assuming good quality low stretch sails and low stretch halyards when the gust hits, the boat should accelerate. With dacron sails and polyester halyards when a gust hits the draft increases and moves aft and the boat will heel more and accelerate less. When racing this is super important. When cruising it's not that important.

Good luck,
Barry

 

[colemj]

And to put the price into perspective: I spent $500 on 8mm Marlow D2 SK78 Racing halyards for my Catalina 270. Polyester halyards would have been $125.

That cost difference is likely only because you needed a certain size dyneema line to fit existing clutches, or at least be comfortable to handle.

Otherwise, there is almost no price difference between high modulus and dacron double braid lines when bought based on working load. Marlow's D2 Racing is a top-of-the-line rope. Here is a lower level 8mm dyneema core rope for $1.20/ft that will out-perform any polyester double braid and likely be cheaper to boot: Departments - NEW ENGLAND ROPES VIPER LINE HANKS

The other benefit dyneema lines have is that none of the strength is carried by the cover, and the dyneema core is highly chafe resistant. Polyester double braid carries half of its strength in the cover, and both cover and core are susceptible to chafing - setting up a failure spiral.

The reasons to go dyneema over polyester for halyards go beyond just sail shape. With the caveat that dyneema needs to fit clutches or be able to be handled, there isn't any reason or advantage at all to use polyester double braid for any line on a boat.

Mark

 

[PaulK]

BarryL has hit nail on the head. On your boat Dyneema halyards might increase your speed by .00003 seconds per mile in flat seas and 10 Knots of wind using new North 3Di carbon sails. You will be able to apply this to every race over the next ten or more years until the Dyneema needs to be replaced. The time to ask this question was before you bought and installed the new halyards, not after. On the other hand, competitors seeing that you just added Dyneema halyards might decide to be less aggressive than before, seeing that you're obviously focused on improving your performance, so you might beat them more often. What's that worth?

 

[PaulDaniel]

Thanks for the responses. My sails are in “fair”condition. I’m not sure exactly how old they are. I think the jib was probably bought when the new mast and furler were installed 13 years ago. The main is in similar shape. The boat did come with laminated racing sails but I never use them.

It seems like if Dyneema halyards are deemed appropriate, and you are using polyester sails, then the sails at least should have a Dyneema luff. Having a very rigid halyard and very stretchy luff seems odd.

 

[Caboteur]

I cruise extensively: my 16 year old boat has over 18,000 nm, about half sailing. I changed the genny six or seven years ago, the main is original. Most cruising is done with dodger and bimini up. I mostly don’t bother rolling up the lazy bag!
My halyards came with the boat…
Could performance be enhanced? Yes! Would it make a difference? Yes! Would I care? No!
A heavy anchor and 125ft of chain and 200ft of rode along with another smaller anchor and 50ft of chain and 100ft of rode would annihilate any gain done with fancy halyards.
Cruising is another ball game. Different priorities.

 

[Foswick]

I will say without much reservation that there is no point in Dyneema halyards unless you have high performance sails in good shape. Even then you will not be able to notice or measure the difference.

The difference only matters if you care about small fractions of knots. I'm not even personally convinced it makes any difference except in a few edge cases.

So, no, I would say Dyneema halyards are not a sensible choice for a cruising boat ... unless they make you happy.

Dyneema brings a set of problems. You can downsize the diameter, but then need to modify your hardware accordingly. And, even once this is done, you still end up with a line that is less convenient to handle.

All problems that can be solved, but for what purpose? I think you addressed the calculation appropriately by asking if it will increase your enjoyment. It almost most certainly will not noticeably increase your speed in any way you can perceive. Still, for some, there is enjoyment from knowing/believing that your equipment is more optimally performance. That's not my disposition, but there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[FastOlson]

Life expectancy is important, also. And very low stretch halyards can simply make your boat better/faster/easier to sail, whether "cruising" or "racing".... remember that it's all about "Sailing".

Buy good quality low stretch lines, *clean 'em up every couple years, and enjoy a very long life out of them. Our **New England Ropes T-900 halyards are over 25 years old and still perform like new. 5/16 inch, and they fit our 1988 OEM clutches, and also the new Lewmar clutches that replaced them in 2018. (Handles started breaking from UV damage on the original ones - different brand),
These halyards probably have another 10 or 20 years of life in them. In the long run they will likely be one of the cheaper upgrades on the boat.

* Replace with temporary tag lines, cold wash with mild soap, and rack-dry. Reverse them, while you have them out.
** https://www.neropes.com/product/t-900/

 

[PaulDaniel]

FastOlson, what do you mean “reverse them”? Do you mean reverse the ends so that the end that was attached to the sail becomes the end that you pull to raise the sail?

Do you ever replace your covers or just clean them off and reuse?

 

[kappykaplan]

Do you mean reverse the ends so that the end that was attached to the sail becomes the end that you pull to raise the sail?

Yes. I've done the same with my reefing lines and jib sheets.

 

[FastOlson]

FastOlson, what do you mean “reverse them”? Do you mean reverse the ends so that the end that was attached to the sail becomes the end that you pull to raise the sail?

Do you ever replace your covers or just clean them off and reuse?

I have never done anything with the covers, but do reverse or "end for end' the halyards every few years to reduce wear at key sheave points. So, yes the end I pull on, i.e. the tail, then will be attached to the shackle.

Here is a thread with a nice illustration of a great knot for securing the halyard to the shackle. Halyard Shackle Knot questions

 

[colemj]

Most seem to be focused on the performance angle of different halyard materials, but that is inconsequential for many. The reasons to go with dyneema for all running rigging on a boat are for all other aspects besides performance.

There just isn't any reason anymore to use polyester double braid for running rigging. The cost of dyneema, particularly blended dyneema cores on the low end of the market, is no more than that for polyester double braid. There is no disadvantage to dyneema rope compared to double braid. It is the most sensible choice one can make in terms of price/chafe resistance/strength retention/longevity/splicing, and yes, performance. While one could downsize to almost absurdity, just being able to downsize a bit to the lower range of your existing clutches gives you the advantage of a rope that runs through blocks and sheaves faster, and takes up less space in the cockpit, or is easier to coil and hang.

For something mostly fixed like a halyard, one can even downsize outside their clutch range and insert a thickening line in the core for those places that will be in the clutch. Takes a minute to do this, it's reversible, and there is no downside. For the ultimate in price saving and low friction, one can use bare dyneema and just put cover over those places it will be in a clutch. Or strip the cover off the length that will never see a clutch. Polyester offers none of this adaptability.

You want to be a splicing ninja? Dyneema is so stupid easy to splice (and unsplice) that you will never tie another knot with it.

It is similar to the past when polyester arrived in a manila world. Nobody today argues for manila - and manila is way cheaper than polyester.

So forget about the performance aspect. Dyneema advantages are far more than that. Few here, myself included, will see a performance increase from a halyard that isn't dwarfed by just a bit more practice and attention on the water.

Mark

 

[colemj]

Our **New England Ropes T-900 halyards are over 25 years old and still perform like new.

We had T-900 halyards on our previous boat, and as far as I'm aware they are still on it. They would be 27yrs old now. I recovered them once because the covers were getting sunburned and starting to have chafe spots. For sure, this is a forever line.

However, it is a really stiff line that twists easily. The stiffness and twisting was always a hassle, but I didn't understand just how bad it was until I moved to dyneema double braid (Endurabraid) on our current boat.

I just looked at T-900 and see that it is now a technora (aramid) and SK78 dyneema blend core. In the past, it was a pure technora core, so maybe the new blend helps with stiffness and twisting. Looking at pictures of the core, it looks like 60-75% dyneema now based on the mix of white and tan colors. On ours, it was all tan aramid color.

Mark

 

[shemandr]

To me the decision to upgrade to low stretch halyards isn't about straight line speed. It's about the sailing behavior of the boat. When there is a gust and the halyard submits by stretching the draft of the sail moves aft. The draft becomes more deep which causes the boat to heel more and the helmsman to apply more helm thus slowing the boat. With the low stretch halyards the boat will heal, accelerate and come back up going faster. Huge difference! If you own a sailboat because you enjoy sailing the former is frustrating and the latter is pleasurable.

 

[jssailem]

For me first there was Braided Nylon, then Polyester Double Braid.

As the boat increased in size the blend of PolyDB and wire was introduced. I Lost chunks of skin with the wire halyards, but the stretch was low. I replaced the PolyDB/Wire halyards with PolyDB (Stay-Set) in 2016.

The properties that were motivating.

Polyester Double Braid Polyester Double Braid provides an excellent combination of high strength, low stretch, excellent weathering and easy handling. Of all the popular fibers polyester has the best weathering characteristics and the best wet abrasion resistance.​

​

PolyBD line stretch is low 5% or less. As my lines are aging I will likely swap out to a Dyneema line for the halyards. Sail handling and dock lines likely will stay with PolyDB.

I am cruising not racing. A little stretch in the sail handling lines is not noticeable.

I do like the fact that Dyneema does not absorb water like PolyDB.

 

[colemj]

Sail handling and dock lines likely will stay with PolyDB.

Dock lines should probably be nylonDB or stranded.

That quote on polyester must be old, as it is not the best at weathering or wet abrasion anymore.

Why stay with polyDB for sail handling, or any other running rigging? Just looking at Defender prices for an arbitrary 7,000 tensile strength, the prices for covered dyneema (Viper) and polyDB (Sta-Set) are the same. And the tensile strength of polyDB starts decreasing from the first deployment as the cover experiences the elements and any chafe, while the dyneema retains full strength for years regardless of the cover seeing the elements and chafe.

Mark