Labor rates for hired help
- Thread starter MPB
- Start date
- Status
I think there's more to the negotiation than the demands of the contractor. A factor of equal importance is the value of the work to he who holds the checkbook. If an agreement cannot be reached, it's trouble for all concerned.
Like many of us, I do most of the work on Kalina. If I didn't, I couldn't afford ownership. It's a simple fact. If I were unable to do the work, I'd better find a way to get it done affordably. And that may mean thinking outside the box.
For example, my new standing rigging a few years ago was acquired in trade for electrical installations I performed for the rigger. Same thing for my relationships with my sailmaker, canvas supplier and stainless fabricator. As mentioned in a previous post, rather than cough up $5K for new cushions, I approached an upholstery school. The only way these deals work is when it's good for all parties.
For those with boating related repair businesses who might think I took work away from them, they weren't going to get the work in the first place so they suffered no loss. Many time's the case where the cost of professional services exceed the value of my aged boat.
I remember one of the cushion shops responded when I balked at their quote that I had no choice.
Wanna bet?
Like many of us, I do most of the work on Kalina. If I didn't, I couldn't afford ownership. It's a simple fact. If I were unable to do the work, I'd better find a way to get it done affordably. And that may mean thinking outside the box.
For example, my new standing rigging a few years ago was acquired in trade for electrical installations I performed for the rigger. Same thing for my relationships with my sailmaker, canvas supplier and stainless fabricator. As mentioned in a previous post, rather than cough up $5K for new cushions, I approached an upholstery school. The only way these deals work is when it's good for all parties.
For those with boating related repair businesses who might think I took work away from them, they weren't going to get the work in the first place so they suffered no loss. Many time's the case where the cost of professional services exceed the value of my aged boat.
I remember one of the cushion shops responded when I balked at their quote that I had no choice.
Wanna bet?
I work for hire and have for more than thirty years there are others who work for much less and they know what their labor is worth. If you want nice clean fresh oats they are 8 dollars per bushel. If you dn't mind that they have been through the horse once they are somewhat cheaper.
MPB After reading this entire thread I have to step in here on the side of the "hired hand".
Bilge pump. fairly easy. Is the wire lead already inplace? Do you want crimped ends, tinned wire and is the exact location you want it in marked?
Fuel polish system. Again, are the wire leads in place, tinned, crimped, locations clearly marked?
Windless. Minor wiring with all the above questions or is the wire that is in place undersized? Who trouble shot this system?
Autopilot. Hell, on this one you will find that better than 50% of the pro's aren't worth a damn in this field and you want someone for 15 to 20 bucks an hour?
None of your jobs are really simple. They all require a good basic knowledge of marine systems, a better than basic knowledge of electrical systems and a good bit of skill in fluid routing and plumbing.
I understand your desire to find a reasonable priced workman but you can't even start to find those skills for under $30.
I have all the skills you need and know what it took to learn them. I also wrote job sked's long enough to learn that the customer was usually the worst trouble shooter you could find. Usually customer supplied parts were wrong for the job or not thourough enough to do the entire job. Now you are paying the same hourly rate while the workman drives to get the right parts. etc. etc.
I wish I could offer a solution but I can't. Your best bet is to walk the docks and ask opinions from as many fellow boat owners as possible to find the one right workman that best fits your needs and budget. The best bet is with powerboat owners. They require more services in the area of your needs.
Good luck. Ray
Bilge pump. fairly easy. Is the wire lead already inplace? Do you want crimped ends, tinned wire and is the exact location you want it in marked?
Fuel polish system. Again, are the wire leads in place, tinned, crimped, locations clearly marked?
Windless. Minor wiring with all the above questions or is the wire that is in place undersized? Who trouble shot this system?
Autopilot. Hell, on this one you will find that better than 50% of the pro's aren't worth a damn in this field and you want someone for 15 to 20 bucks an hour?
None of your jobs are really simple. They all require a good basic knowledge of marine systems, a better than basic knowledge of electrical systems and a good bit of skill in fluid routing and plumbing.
I understand your desire to find a reasonable priced workman but you can't even start to find those skills for under $30.
I have all the skills you need and know what it took to learn them. I also wrote job sked's long enough to learn that the customer was usually the worst trouble shooter you could find. Usually customer supplied parts were wrong for the job or not thourough enough to do the entire job. Now you are paying the same hourly rate while the workman drives to get the right parts. etc. etc.
I wish I could offer a solution but I can't. Your best bet is to walk the docks and ask opinions from as many fellow boat owners as possible to find the one right workman that best fits your needs and budget. The best bet is with powerboat owners. They require more services in the area of your needs.
Good luck. Ray
I have realized that after being burned MBP just wants the alleged professional people he hires to do the work correctly
i just wonder if you are willing to assume all the responceabilitys of tax,supplies,insurance,car expense,ect and pay cash for that twenty dollars an hour pay..... as well being prepaired to have the job last 50% to 75% longer than normal...because any one with the ability to do the work and knows what they are doing.... that might take on the work..... will work at a very slow pace....and only if they are lofeing at the time.....
just MHO......
regards
woody
just MHO......
regards
woody
to answer your question
Ok, Imagine I'm sitting inside a marine store making 10-15 per hour, getting benefits of some kind and probably looking forward to my days off. I'm somewhat boat savvy and understand basic systems. Why on earth would I want to crawl around in a bilge and do work that I know the yard guys that come into my shop get a whole lot more $$ for. On top of that, I'm going to have somebody hanging over my shoulder, have to deal with owners tools that may or may not be adequate, pray the owner bought all the right parts and thought things through well. Not doing this for a living I'm probably not nearly as fast as a professional so it's going to take me more hours than the penny pinching owner thinks is fair (more headache arguing) and if something isn't perfect or the boat sinks or catches fire (regardless of who oversaw the work)...guess who's going to court?
All this for an extra $5-10 an hour? You have to be kidding!
Ok, Imagine I'm sitting inside a marine store making 10-15 per hour, getting benefits of some kind and probably looking forward to my days off. I'm somewhat boat savvy and understand basic systems. Why on earth would I want to crawl around in a bilge and do work that I know the yard guys that come into my shop get a whole lot more $$ for. On top of that, I'm going to have somebody hanging over my shoulder, have to deal with owners tools that may or may not be adequate, pray the owner bought all the right parts and thought things through well. Not doing this for a living I'm probably not nearly as fast as a professional so it's going to take me more hours than the penny pinching owner thinks is fair (more headache arguing) and if something isn't perfect or the boat sinks or catches fire (regardless of who oversaw the work)...guess who's going to court?
All this for an extra $5-10 an hour? You have to be kidding!
Cost of Hiring Repair People
I once had some repair work done to the sprinkler system in my yard. The guy that did the work charged quite a bit but did an excellent job. He gave me a small screw driver with some advertising on it. The message read "Do it yourself and screw it up, or call me".
Most of this type of work is done "under the table" which makes that $20.00 an hour more like $32.50. I hired a $50.00 an hour electrician and $350 later he was worth every penny. All the electrics on my boat work, the batterys charge fine and don't boil dry. My buddys boat has a host of electrical problems similar to what i had and he's still messing around with cheap help and bad advice. His bilge pumps don't work and the batteries won't hold a charge. Guess who's boat we take sailing...
Very good question and he still hasn't answered my question...
Are you willing to risk your boat and even your house to save some money. This is the same scenario as hiring someone cash under the table to do the roof of your house. That person falls off the roof, goes to the hospital and is layed up from real work for x no. of days. You become the emloyer and thus responsible for all costs associated. Same as work at your house, it is your responsibility to make sure the contractor you hire is covered by insurance and Workmans Comp., otherwise you are the employer and resposible for costs.
This isn't an issue of doing the work yourself, this is hiring someone under the table for cash.
Shop Rate.
"If you dn't mind that they have been through the horse once they are somewhat cheaper"
That's an awsome line Ross!
I have been employed as a Marine Mechanic for the last fifteen years. I always have people wanting me to take on side jobs. When I work for the Marina tools are provided and they are responsilbe for warrenty and my benifits. When I work for my self its all on me and i get the shop rate. I never undercut the Marina labor rate. If transporting the boat to the Marina is a problem I'll come out and do the job but if you only want me to take the job because you think it will be cheaper you should get someone else. I'd rather be sailing.
Regards,
Larry
"If you dn't mind that they have been through the horse once they are somewhat cheaper"
That's an awsome line Ross!
I have been employed as a Marine Mechanic for the last fifteen years. I always have people wanting me to take on side jobs. When I work for the Marina tools are provided and they are responsilbe for warrenty and my benifits. When I work for my self its all on me and i get the shop rate. I never undercut the Marina labor rate. If transporting the boat to the Marina is a problem I'll come out and do the job but if you only want me to take the job because you think it will be cheaper you should get someone else. I'd rather be sailing.
Regards,
Larry
Cup's Law- everything is negotiable...
While i agree with your premise, you're comparing apples and oranges. That low-paying job has intangibles- benefits, steady pay and climate control to name a few....
YOU WANT TO NEGOTIATE A RATE LOWER THAN THAN THE MARKET; WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT GUY NEGOTIATING FOR HIGHER THAN HIS REGULAR PAY??
Perhaps this will help.... I posted on craigs list for a marine mechanic to replace the starter on my Sea Ray stinkpot, simply because no matter how i tried, I couldn't reach it! I specified I wanted a trained mechanic, not a "shadetree' type. I described the boat, and the work. I GOT LIT UP by marine professionals for being unwilling to pay marina prices, but a couple of guys responded. The guy I chose gave me a price and i accepted. The boat has a Chevy 350 inboard, so I was just gonna buy a automotive starter, but he said he wouldn't install it, because the marine version had some kind of spark protection, and it was the only safe way to do it. I paid him for the starter and the install.
The guy did a great job, and we were both happy.
Just because someone is selling lower priced oats doesn't mean they've been through the horse.
And the cringe test disgusts me.
There are alot of good technicians that need more work than their job can provide. I, too, have no desire to pay for a boat dealer's overhead. If the yard is charging 80/hr., the tech is getting less than half. You can give that tech a raise and STILL save over the yard's price!
Maybe if you provide unemployment insurance, discounted health insurance, 401k opportunity, and steady work you can get it done for 20/hr from those unskilled guys at the marine store, but I doubt it...
cup
Maine,Let's see, for a legitimate business you have;
Payroll Taxes
Income Taxes
Social Security Taxes
Workmans Comp Insurance
Unemployment Taxes (UI)
Electric bills
Water Bills
EPA compliance
Health Insurance
Business Insurance
Cost of Capitol (interest on business loans)
Inventory Costs
Cost of Tools
Maintenance Costs on Equipment
Equipment Costs
Marketing Costs
Legal Costs
401k
on, and on, and on........
If you want to pay $15-20 per hour I wish you luck. You'll usually get exactly what you paid for. Heck my car dealer is $100.00 per hour and that is on book rate and their guys work way faster than book making the actual hourly rate they earn MUCH higher than $100.00 per hour and more like $200-400 per hour, per mechanic. Those guys make between 40&60K per year on charges of $200.00-400 per hour. There is NO BOOK rate in the marine business even if you could beat it. I can't touch any job for less than $70.00 per hour as it is not even worth wasting my time on to lose money. Out of that $70.00 I am lucky to net $20-25.00 per hour after expenses/taxes.
After seeing the work you do on your projects, I'll be happy to pay you a rate of $70/hr. Compared to Chicago yard prices, I think I'll come out better (both on price and workmanship) even if I paid your travel expenses too.
Keep up the great project website - it's a great reference!
EXS
My 2C
Obviously this is a topic near and dear to most of our hearts. After my first and only experience paying for work on my boat...$600 for having a twenty something year old "mechanic" at a full service marina overfill my oil and transmission fluid and tell me he didn't know what the noise was either...I concluded that DIY was the only way to fly.
Part of the issue is that, in my limited experience, it seems that few yards really service sailboats often and therefore don't have much experience.
There is no way I would let anyone do the type of work discussed in the original post. To be frank, I'd hire someone to do things they would be less likely to screw up, like buffing the hull or painting the bottom, and then dedicate my time to the more important repairs.
I can appreciate the thought though. The older I get and the more money I make, the less it makes sense to rake my leaves / clean my house / mow my lawn when I could be sailing during my limited time off. The trick is to find someone who is professional and reasonable. Word of mouth is the best.
I got quotes of $35K+ to redo two bathrooms but eventually word of mouth led me to a great guy who allowed me to do it for $25K and he did it to my exact specifications. I paid him an extra $1000 over what he asked initially. There was an unexpected problem with the shower pan install...cost me another $800 in material and him four additional days of labor...he didn't want any more money...I insisted he take another $750. I could have kept my $1750...but he does good work...does what I want...and most importantly...I still saved money and will continue to do so when he comes back for the next job. I also made sure to pass his name on to my friends.
Obviously this is a topic near and dear to most of our hearts. After my first and only experience paying for work on my boat...$600 for having a twenty something year old "mechanic" at a full service marina overfill my oil and transmission fluid and tell me he didn't know what the noise was either...I concluded that DIY was the only way to fly.
Part of the issue is that, in my limited experience, it seems that few yards really service sailboats often and therefore don't have much experience.
There is no way I would let anyone do the type of work discussed in the original post. To be frank, I'd hire someone to do things they would be less likely to screw up, like buffing the hull or painting the bottom, and then dedicate my time to the more important repairs.
I can appreciate the thought though. The older I get and the more money I make, the less it makes sense to rake my leaves / clean my house / mow my lawn when I could be sailing during my limited time off. The trick is to find someone who is professional and reasonable. Word of mouth is the best.
I got quotes of $35K+ to redo two bathrooms but eventually word of mouth led me to a great guy who allowed me to do it for $25K and he did it to my exact specifications. I paid him an extra $1000 over what he asked initially. There was an unexpected problem with the shower pan install...cost me another $800 in material and him four additional days of labor...he didn't want any more money...I insisted he take another $750. I could have kept my $1750...but he does good work...does what I want...and most importantly...I still saved money and will continue to do so when he comes back for the next job. I also made sure to pass his name on to my friends.
The guy at the marine store may be working there so he can hit you up for work that pays better.
Maybe he's just using that job to get cheaper benefits than he could pay for out of pocket.
I would be glad to do the work for you, but It would cost me 10 times more to live there than here, I don't see how anyone survives the high cost and low pay on the west coast.
just my opinion.
Maybe he's just using that job to get cheaper benefits than he could pay for out of pocket.
I would be glad to do the work for you, but It would cost me 10 times more to live there than here, I don't see how anyone survives the high cost and low pay on the west coast.
just my opinion.
- Status