Labor rates for hired help

[MPB]

Hello All,

I am new to this forum and from what I see, there is quite a bit of knowledge out there which I have already benefited from.

I have never read anything in any forum that addresses this issue - Maybe someone could enlighten me, please.

I have my sailboat in San Pedro Ca.

Just like all of you, I handled the bulk of the projects on the boat, myself.

But now, I have to find a mechanically inclined person to do basic projects - not the kind that needs an engineering degree or Masters degree in basic boat work. I have found people who work in the local marine stores, and could actually do the work.

But when it comes down to labor rates, these people who probably earn 10-15$ per hour before taxes, in their regular job, ask 35-60$ per hour to work on the boat. Just for the sake of argument, I could understand 15-20$ per hour.
Most projects will take 5 hours at a time, between thinking and executing. And most often, I am the one who has to think-out the complete details and lead them by the nose.

And I am not even considering mechanics who charge 100-150$ / hour regardless of whether they change oil and filters or have to do something more demanding like rebuild an engine.

Sure, it's a free market society, and maybe I am undervaluing there services, but if they have jobs that pay 10-15$ /hour, why do they set such high rates ?

If someone knows of a person who they can recommend, I would surely appreciate it.
Thanks

 

[higgs]

What jobs are you talking about?

 

[MPB]

The jobs are just the labor side of things - all materials are purchased and selected by me, as well as instruction, if needed
For example -
Installing an automatic bilge pump
Installing a DIY fuel polishing system - fuel/water seperator and fuel transfer pump, plus making a hole in the fuel tank and attach hose fittings.
Installing a switch and solenoid for the windlass
Replacing a bow hatch - already pre-drilled for fitting.
Autopilot - fault check as per raymarine instructions

 

[Ross]

Labor is charged on a basis of what the market will bear. If you ask me how much and I have plenty of work and am not hungry I will tell you a price, but if I am hungry I will tell you a much lower price. If you make a counter offer that is reasonable I may agree on something in between.

Sometimes I give prices based on the flinch method of bidding. It goes like this: how much to paint this room? 200 dollars. No flinch. Each coat. no flinch. the trim is extra. no flinch. plus the cost of the paint.

 

[Stu Jackson]

All of the work you listed requires one other thing: tools. You have already done the planning, and have the materials. You didn't say if you have a physical handicap, in which case all bets are off.

For the $$ you are discussing, it would much more worth your while to purchase the right tools and do the work yourself.

Why: It WILL got done RIGHT. The two times I've had "others" work on my boat, including specs, designs and materials, they have both failed. I simply don't trust the safety of my boat and crew to work done by others.

And the stuff you are discussing are things YOU need to be intimately aware of, including the details, like where the wire run physically go, because, you know, it's a boat, and what happens on boats.

If you are sensitive as you seem to be about price, and are having issues in finding quality installers (they are few and far between), then DIY.

It's safer and it'll get done right.

 

[Mike B1026]

Labor

Those jobs aren't like mowing the grass or walking your dog. They require some level of knowledge and skill (which I assume you don't feel comfortable doing)

Although it's not like rebuilding an engine, to do it right, they do need a certain amount of knowledge. Saying that, I would find $60.00 a bit high but I don't live in Ca. $$$

The jobs are just the labor side of things - all materials are purchased and selected by me, as well as instruction, if needed
For example -
Installing an automatic bilge pump
Installing a DIY fuel polishing system - fuel/water seperator and fuel transfer pump, plus making a hole in the fuel tank and attach hose fittings.
Installing a switch and solenoid for the windlass
Replacing a bow hatch - already pre-drilled for fitting.
Autopilot - fault check as per raymarine instructions

 

[Ed Schenck]

So Stu, what can those of us without the time or the skills do? With me it is time, limited to a few hours a week after a round trip drive of three hours. No way can I get my boat ready for the next launch by myself. Simple things like painting the bootstripe, then the bottom, and finally washing and waxing a 37' boat. I have always done all the work myself. Now without the time I face a dilemma.

 

[CharlieCobra]

Those of us in the business have overhead that's calculated into every job. There's insurance, taxes, employees and their benefits etc. We have to spend money to make any.

 

[Ross]

Re: Labor

You posted the list as I was posting my answer. I would not trust those jobs to an unknown worker. The list of tools needed for that to do list would fill a very nice tool box. I will fire any person I see using pliers on fuel fittings or using any but the proper tools for crimping an electrical terminal or for not drilling proper pilot holes for threaded fasteners.
A bad hair cut or lawming job will be okay in a couple of weeks but a bad installation on a boat is going to remain bad until it is re-done.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Ed, maybe I should have said "inside my boat." Whether I have the time or not is an interesting question. It's all too easy to say "I make the time 'cuz it's my baby!" There are a few things that come around every there or four years that I leave to the yard: a haul and bottom paint. Oh, once I had my standing rigging redone (and the rigger was one of those two bozos who f*ed up, too). So, yeah, I hear ya, I don't do EVERYTHING, but this list is ALL I let anyone else touch on my boat - the scope of a haul and bottom job are beyond me, although I know many do their own bottom jobs.

I was particularly addressing the list of items the OP put up.

 

[MPB]

I agree 150% with you.
I think the majority of us DIY people feel the same way.

In fact, as I said, I always did everything myself, from varnishing to electrical/electronics/engine/hardware and plumbing - never found anything to be complicated as long as I took my time.

OK - just to clarify : I am not disabled. But I am 5,000 miles away from the boat. I use it one month per year when I return for vacation. My parents still sail it. My father is 80 years old but can't do what he used to - at least in terms of projects which require some sort of contortionist ability !

And yes, a whole inventory of tools are available, and I make detailed diagrams, including wiring runs, etc.


Maybe I didn't raise my question properly, or maybe it is a moot point.
It had to do with a marine store person's value while at their regular job and their inflated value just because they are asked if they want to make extra money when they are off work.

I guess it would be simpler to ask - How much are people paying, when they have to, for hired help on the boat ?

 

[Ross]

I presume that your Dad can do quality control checks for you. And may even be able to supervise the work. I have a customer that lives half way across the country that trusts me to do repair work in his absence but we have known each other for twenty years or more.
If you only hire labor and not the brains and business behind it then you have no recourse if the work isn't up to your standards.

 

[Maine Sail]

Sure, it's a free market society, and maybe I am undervaluing there services, but if they have jobs that pay 10-15$ /hour, why do they set such high rates ?


Thanks

Let's see, for a legitimate business you have;

Payroll Taxes
Income Taxes
Social Security Taxes
Workmans Comp Insurance
Unemployment Taxes (UI)
Electric bills
Water Bills
EPA compliance
Health Insurance
Business Insurance
Cost of Capitol (interest on business loans)
Inventory Costs
Cost of Tools
Maintenance Costs on Equipment
Equipment Costs
Marketing Costs
Legal Costs
401k



on, and on, and on........

If you want to pay $15-20 per hour I wish you luck. You'll usually get exactly what you paid for. Heck my car dealer is $100.00 per hour and that is on book rate and their guys work way faster than book making the actual hourly rate they earn MUCH higher than $100.00 per hour and more like $200-400 per hour, per mechanic. Those guys make between 40&60K per year on charges of $200.00-400 per hour. There is NO BOOK rate in the marine business even if you could beat it. I can't touch any job for less than $70.00 per hour as it is not even worth wasting my time on to lose money. Out of that $70.00 I am lucky to net $20-25.00 per hour after expenses/taxes.

 

[Rick2413]

I understand the frustration of MPB. As CharlieCobra has stated, he has overhead(tools,personnel, transportation,insurance etc) plus the true tradesman has to stand behind their work. I have a complete understanding of these wages. However, I get really cranked and paying a backyard handyman with average skills and none of the afore mentioned reponsiblities the same wage as the true tradesman. As most, time factor is usually an issue and I'll gladly pay above the individuals daytime wage(say $20) and if I am pleased a tip

 

[MPB]

Ross,

Exactly !

First, it is good to see that people are getting involved in this post. It is an issue for which there probably is no right answer. But it should make us think. We are all price sensitive.

My issue is seconded by Ed Schenk.

Re what you and others wrote - I am not referring those professionals who make a living from boat maintenance and repairs - They have overhead, taxes, insurance, etc.
I am talking about a guy who works at a marine store for 10-15$ /hour and wants double or triple to work on the boat. He has no more knowledge than he did in the store.
Basically I usually do planning and the monkey work. Now I want to pay for the monkey work. Supervision and quality will be done by my father.

 

[MPB]

Rick,

You hit the nail on the head !!

 

[Maine Sail]

I am talking about a guy who works at a marine store for 10-15$ /hour and wants double or triple to work on the boat. He has no more knowledge than he did in the store.
Basically I usually do planning and the monkey work. Now I want to pay for the monkey work. Supervision and quality will be done by my father.

Sorry but this would be the last guy I would be hiring to work on my boat if he is not truly qualified. Also if he is legitimately doing this on the side he is paying similar overhead, taxes and insurance as one doing this professionally. You really need to find the time to DIY cause at $15.00 $20.00 per hour you will almost certainly get $15.00 - $20.00 per hour quality work which can be a big disappointment.

Reputable boat yards, the key here is reputable, generally employ qualified and properly trained workers who often have industry certifications or attended a school like Westlawn, the Landing School or others to learn their trade. They can also employ some untrained monkeys to sand bottoms and slap on bottom paint but they are not paid like the systems tech, mechanic, electrician, rigger, or fiberglass/paint guys. It is often the yard monkeys looking for side work, who don't understand systems, so please be careful...

You would be best served to go into this on a "skills" basis, not a price basis, if you want to hire this out. Make sure the guy has the SKILLS. Adding a fuel polishing system requires some level of knowledge of marine fuel systems that a guy willing to work for $15.00 hr will likely not have. Replacing a hatch is easy work but work that is often botched and done incorrectly. An incorrect hatch installation could lead to a future re-core of the deck potentially costing you 10 times what you saved in "labor" and a poor bilge pump install could cost you your whole vessel. It is important to save money but also important to see that the work is done properly, regardless of cost.

If these are the projects you are hiring out sailing can get very expensive very fast. Perhaps your dad could wire a bilge pump?

 

[Ross]

I would ask a retorical question. Counting all of the benefits, paid sick leave, vacation, health care insurance, retirement contributions, bonuses, what is the annual income of those that hire their boat maintanance work done by others. Would any of them work for the money they are willing to pay for work that they either can't or won't do.
What value do they give the learned skills and experience pocessed by those who can do the work.
A university education costs money and takes four years or more, the skills of a craftsman are acquired over a lifetime and are learned while working for low wages in many different places.

 

[Bill1565]

In the bad old days when I got paid for my efforts, my time off was precious. Also I always lived in the north where summer was 12-13 weeks long. No reasonalble amount of money was enuff to entice me to work on someone else's boat.

People looking for $15/ hour mechanics or electricians are living in the wrong century. Hair dressers and lawn maintenance people make more than that today. Hell welfare mothers pull down better than $10 per kid per hour on a 40 hour week basis.

 

[MPB]

Maine Sail,

Your issues are valid, but you are taking this to heart. I am in no way questioning the value of a true professional.

My question, as raised in my first post is basic.
Re. the fuel polishing system - In this case, the degree there when you have to plan it out and adhere to safety, and reliability issues . In this case that is not the issue.