Labor rates for hired help

Status
Not open for further replies.

MPB

.
Nov 7, 2010
12
Islander 32 Cabrillo Marina, San Pedro
Ross and Bill,

Please excuse me if I ma wrong, but I believe you are getting off track. I never referred to skilled craftsmen - I think I have tried to clear that up that several times.
 
Sep 20, 2006
2,952
Hunter 33 Georgian Bay, Ontario, Canada
The jobs are just the labor side of things - all materials are purchased and selected by me, as well as instruction, if needed
For example -
Installing an automatic bilge pump
Installing a DIY fuel polishing system - fuel/water seperator and fuel transfer pump, plus making a hole in the fuel tank and attach hose fittings.
Installing a switch and solenoid for the windlass
Replacing a bow hatch - already pre-drilled for fitting.
Autopilot - fault check as per raymarine instructions

What happens if the worker that you have hired is injured while employed by you. He is not covered by Workmens Comp since you were not paying the fees. That makes you responsible for his lost time wages, medical costs etc.

What happens if a short occurs from the switch in the windlass and starts a fire on your boat, or burns out completely or takes out a few other boats besides you at the marina. He is not insured for working on boats and your insurance company is not going to cover your boat or the others.

If you don't want to do the work yourself, pay a legitimate company to do the work and potentially save yourself a lot of money.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
I am 54 :) and have this


My wife is and MBA doing MBA work at a big company

My son is and Assistant District Attorney

My daughter is 7 months short of and MSW

With post like this it becomes easy to see why i gave the whole boat thing a big FU in 1976 and started fixing Pharmaceutical machinery

As far as money i think the last time i worked by the hour was about 1978 its x dollars or see ya


 
Jan 22, 2008
1,483
Hunter 37 C sloop Punta Gorda FL
Ross and Bill,

Please excuse me if I ma wrong, but I believe you are getting off track. I never referred to skilled craftsmen - I think I have tried to clear that up that several times.

I knew that. I'm not a skilled marine trades type, just a diy. But you referred to people at marine stores. You want unskilled, ask the help at McDonalds, or the grocery store, go to the local unemployment office.

In these days of $10 minimum wages, even apprentices are expensive.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Supply me with all of the tools and materials and tell me the precise length to cut each piece of tubing. Exactly where to place the bends and the exact angle and radius of each bend. the precise location of the hole in the tank and the diameter of the hole, exactly what fitting to use in each location, exactly where on the bulkheads you want each piece mounted, the location of each tubing support clamp, the size and run of all of the electrical circuits, The location in the breaker panel for the breaker for this system. Detail the terminals for all of the electrical connections. Specify the torque values for all of the threaded connections and fasteners. Then almost anybody that can follow directions can do the job.
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
Hey, we're neighbors! I'm in berth 31, C dock.

My take by the numbers:

1. My general opinion of the caliber of workman you're considering is that of a wharf rat. I lump them in with dock experts, know-it-alls, parolees and escapees. No way they're getting near my boat.

2. You use your boat 1 month a year? Let's see, that's $5K in slip rent, $1K in insurance, $500 in bottom services, plus parts, repairs and maintenance. Roughly $7500 annually? I dunno, seems like I could do some BVI time for that kinda dough. Mmmm, Foxy's, The Baths, BBQ'ed ribs at Rhymers in Cane Garden Bay and Painkillers daily. I'm ready!

3. If Pops is available to supervise like a hawk, maybe pick up a young guy interested in sailing and train him the way you want. He brings no bad habits that way. As his abilities progress he could be rewarded with boat time. Locally we have the Southern California Regional Occupational Center (SCROC) located in Torrance. Maybe they could recommend one or more of their students. Treat it something like an internship.
 
Feb 10, 2004
4,147
Hunter 40.5 Warwick, RI
Yeow, MPB, have you ever pushed a HOT button today!! :eek:

For the record, I am a confirmed DIY person and the day I can't do my own maintenance work will be the day that she goes on the market. I simply can't afford to pay people the money that they demand to work on my boat. And I am way to picky to be 100% satisfied with work effort of others.

I agree with MaineSail that professionals have invested in their education and tools and also have costs of doing business in the way of taxes. They need to charge $70 or more (maybe much more depending upon the cost of living in their particular market) in order to make a reasonable wage.

MPB has the problem that he is physically separated from his boat and simply cannot be there to do the work.

I echo the feeling that when I was working (I'm now a retired bum :D) my off-time was limited and valuable. I used to complain when I had to work "forced" overtime at 1.5x pay. I simply would rather have the time off than more money. Not everyone feels this way.

MPB is frustrated (I think) because he is being quoted a MUCH higher rate than the prospective worker makes at his 40 hour job and he feels this price is unreasonable. I understand that position, but I don't have a solution or suggestion.

I have a friend and his son who help me in the Fall and Spring to cover/uncover/prep and bottom paint my 40' boat. The cover and uncover is a job that one person cannot do alone. They contribute about four long days of effort for me each year. In exchange I provide my sailboat and me to take them on a week's cruise of their choice each year. Now I figure that my boat costs me out of pocket about $150-200 per day of use, so a nine-day cruise is about $1500+ of "cost" to me. True I get to sail with them and they pick up the food and fuel costs, but I think we both get a pretty good deal from the arrangement. My point is that even my "free" labor really does cost money.

The only suggestion that I can offer is this: Somehow find a way to free up two weeks to spend on boat maintenance and DIY. Or sell the boat and charter for your month. I dare say that a month's charter cost might be about the same as your present yearly costs and even if it is a bit more, you just show up, use the boat, and leave.

:soapbox: I have left the box......
 

kenn

.
Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
Alot wrong in the basic premise...

(where I'm coming from: I have 20+ years in electronic systems, I worked 10 weeks this year for a marine diesel mechanic, and I just finished (and hopefully passed) the ABYC Marine Electrical certification course. I'm planning for an early "retirement" career to work as a boat electrical specialist.)

... But when it comes down to labor rates, these people who probably earn 10-15$ per hour before taxes, in their regular job, ask 35-60$ per hour to work on the boat. Just for the sake of argument, I could understand 15-20$ per hour.
First bad assumption - if they're more than just unskilled shop help, they'll be pulling down more than $15/hr. At least up here they would. In Toronto, a skilled marine guy with certifications would command $25+ per hour.

Second bad assumption - you must think they're fools. You're hiring someone, under the table, to avoid paying $75/hr or more to a licenced professional. So is it unreasonable to be splitting the difference? $75 - $15 = $60. Splitting the difference is $30; add their assumed rate of $15. $45 seems a fair rate.

...And I am not even considering mechanics who charge 100-150$ / hour regardless of whether they change oil and filters or have to do something more demanding like rebuild an engine.
Uh, no you certainly aren't.

It's not like a mechanic can, like, leave half his brain and half of his tools at home just because the job's an oil change.

This sort of came up a while back when people where lamenting about how poor they thought most marine service techs were. One person brought up how he expected the tech to put all the crap back in the aft locker, remake the rear berths, wipe and clean-up, etc etc. I am totally OK with that. Just remember that you're still paying my mechanics rate to make your stupid bed. :D

Tangent - while talking to some other techs this week, I heard from many that they mainly do just powerboaters now, because those owners are not afraid to pay. It costs $1k to do an oil change & winterizing in a big 2-engine boat? They pay it. Us sailors (I include myself) are a fussy, stingy lot.;)

If someone knows of a person who they can recommend, I would surely appreciate it.
Thanks
This is key; I'm sure we can agree on that. Ask around, get recommendations... find someone you trust. The final ingredients: pay them fairly, and be a loyal customer.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Don't forget about the liability insurance

We just had a case where a sailor had this guy do an oil change. He sent one of his hired help to do this. The guy installed a fuel filter on the oil side of the engine.

Needless to say the engine fried and the guy that did the work had no liability insurance or many assets. The cost for a new engine installed was around $20k +.

This guy was just trying to save $100 on an oil change and it cost him $20,000! This is not to say that you cannot/will not get qualified help at cheaper rates, but just be careful on what you WISH for!
 

MPB

.
Nov 7, 2010
12
Islander 32 Cabrillo Marina, San Pedro
Old Skool Neil,

Thank you fro your kind suggestion. That is an excellent recommendation. Until you came around, people were only blinded by their eagerness to criticize.
That shouldn't be the spirit.
We are on just in front of the marina office, berth 21 c- dock slip 21.

If you don't mind, I will contact you for more info on SCROC. I had searched for community organizations of the sort, who have young guys anxious to learn, but rarely get the chance, or don't even know how to go about asking for one.
Thanks !
 

MPB

.
Nov 7, 2010
12
Islander 32 Cabrillo Marina, San Pedro
Rich Stidger,

I also agree with you.

Your math is correct, but the boat is part of the family, if you know what I mean, and it is still a part of my parent's life.

Re taking the two weeks to get things done when I'm back - Well that is usually what happens, but takes sometimes three weeks and then vacation is over. This time, I wanted to slowly get things done.

Thanks
 

MPB

.
Nov 7, 2010
12
Islander 32 Cabrillo Marina, San Pedro
Kenn,

I agree with the cost split.
I gave a ball park figure of 15-20$ vs the person's regular salary of 10-15$.

People are getting an impresson that I beleive is wrong.

A few years ago, we had a certified Diesel marine company rebuild our old Volvo Penta MD-7A. The rebuild cost 5,000$ - at the respected 150$ /hour rate. Less than a month later, the engine failed completely due to improper work. The respected company did not accept the responsibility. We paid for a certified surveyor to examine the issue. He concluded in favor of us. The repair company did not budge. Considering legal costs, we decided to reduce the damages and buy a new Betamarine engine (best thing we ever did, but that is not the point).

One month before I arrived for vacation this last summer, my father had a reputable marine battery company, five minutes away from the dock, replace battery with an identical one. Labor was 150$.

So when people suggest I am being cheap, that is not the case. I just don't base value on labor simply because someone hung a shingle out - saying he is a pro and knows what he or she is doing. Of course there is good and bad. But the shingle and the high prices are no guarantee of quality.
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
Yeah MPB, send me a PM off list and we'll chat.

I think the general theme of the responses is you get what you pay for. If you think $15/hr. guys are going to do satisfactory work, the odds are not in your favor. I also think your concern is how can you be sure you're getting your money's worth.

In agreement with you, if I'm paying $50 for $15 worth of work, woe be to whoever charged me the $50. Same goes for paying $200 for $100 worth of work.

I invite you to visit my profile page on this forum and look at my 'Kalina' photo album. The interior cushions were made by the auto upholstery class at SCROC. Professional quotes were in the area of $5K, the finished project cost me $1500 including a monetary gift to the class. Good value for me, real world experience for the students, final exam project for the teacher. Good deal for all parties. When completed I gave a bunch of pictures to the class that they took home to their parents to show what they had done.
 

Rick D

.
Jun 14, 2008
7,186
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Dock Guys

I know that there are dock guys who do general labor. However, in Long Beach, they all have to be insured and have a city business license, so their overhead is up there. I do most of my own work, except for standing rigging. It's been a long time since I hired it out except for the jobs that have to be done at haul out. I think the best referral is to check around the docks and see who the other folks use.
 

higgs

.
Aug 24, 2005
3,712
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
The bottom line:

If you cannot find someone who will do the work for $15 -20 per hour - you will have to pay more or do it yourself.

If you can't do it yourself then your stuck paying the going rate. Too bad for you if you think it is too much.

Whatever you think "should be" is irrelevant. As the saying goes, "It is what it is".
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,711
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
So when people suggest I am being cheap, that is not the case. I just don't base value on labor simply because someone hung a shingle out - saying he is a pro and knows what he or she is doing. Of course there is good and bad. But the shingle and the high prices are no guarantee of quality.
Precisely, this why one should always try and find out as much as they can about whom is working on their boat and why earlier I said it should be about "skill". Seek references and ask lots of questions.
 

kenn

.
Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
I agree with the cost split.
I gave a ball park figure of 15-20$ vs the person's regular salary of 10-15$.
That ain't exactly a fair split, if you're saving $30 or more an hour.

People often put up with $10 or $15/hr because the job is full-time or at least steady, it's not always a grind, and there's benefits.

To go work a short cash job, where you know there's no slack time, and you're probably under someone's nose the whole time... $20/hr wouldn't cut it.

A few years ago, we had a certified Diesel marine company rebuild our old Volvo Penta MD-7A. The rebuild cost 5,000$ - at the respected 150$ /hour rate. Less than a month later, the engine failed completely due to improper work. The respected company did not accept the responsibility. We paid for a certified surveyor to examine the issue. He concluded in favor of us. The repair company did not budge. Considering legal costs, we decided to reduce the damages and buy a new Betamarine engine (best thing we ever did, but that is not the point).

One month before I arrived for vacation this last summer, my father had a reputable marine battery company, five minutes away from the dock, replace battery with an identical one. Labor was 150$.
From what you've said, the Volvo story sounds like a horrorshow. If it was me, I'd have pursued a settlement.

I got to see the other side of this this spring. I can recall a couple situations where people asked my boss to nurse along some ancient, clapped-out engine. If the thing was not rebuildable, or too iffy to be able to guarantee a rebuild, my boss would flat-out refuse, and suggest a repower. Even then, some owners still preferred to have my boss put in time (with NO guarantee it would last, stated upfront) to coax whatever improvement we could out of the old anchor. People are funny...

Re your battery change and $150 charge: if someone's gotta load a battery onto a truck, drive to a marina, unload the battery onto a cart, go to the boat, haul out the old battery, install the new, test new, confirm it's charging from both the alternator and shorepower, haul old battery back to truck, load truck, drive back... that's easily over half an hour. Maybe even more than an hour.

That's also not taking into account: wait for owner with key... always fun ;), replace a lug cos it's shot, maybe diagnose why the old battery went (if it wasn't age). Some boats are utter backbreakers when it comes to battery position.

I just don't base value on labor simply because someone hung a shingle out - saying he is a pro and knows what he or she is doing. Of course there is good and bad. But the shingle and the high prices are no guarantee of quality.
Low-balling, on the other hand, is as near a guarantee as you can find for unsatisfactory results.

I do hear your frustration, and I am sympathetic... to a point. Most people need to have made more then $10 or $15 an hour, in order to keep a boat. How do you justify your high rate?
 

higgs

.
Aug 24, 2005
3,712
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Kenn makes an excellent point. I am friends with a guy who does the sort of work MB talks about. Often, my friends clients don't take into account the time he spends driving to get new batteries, or to a machine shop, etc. How hard is it to get in the car and drive and how much is that worth is not the point. If these guys are providing a service that not just anyone will provide, they can demand a higher wage. If the market won't underbid them, then that is the way of our free market system. Those who can't do their own work gotta pay if they want to play.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.