Keel Envy

Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
Jackdaw, your knowledge about hydrodynamics has always impressed me, though I fail to show it at times. In this case theory dictates how hydrodynamics should work and I think you have spelled that out. But theory does not always hold true. There might be something to the design that negates the theory and he just might get his point and maintain his speed without compromising anything. What do they say in English? The pudding is proof?
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Hull speed is expressed as 1.34 X the square root of LWL, or length of waterline.
That is not a value that will change by dragging or changing shape. It's just an optimum value that is determined by an effort over speed where the curve of the graph has been shown to change dramatically for displacement boats in a consistent way.
How hard it wool be to push the boat to hull speed is a different issue.
- Will (Dragonfly)
That formula doesn't really apply to modern sailboat design. It is more applicable to matching up a full displacement vessel with it's optimally sized power supply. Think...... steam power... where increases in HP required an exponential supply of fuel. The theoretical hull speed formula helped designers fit the most efficient power plant to the boat.
When you modify a below waterline foil, the hull design and thus, it's performance, is altered.
 

Johann

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Jun 3, 2004
424
Leopard 39 Pensacola
2) It breaks us the hulls laminar flow in the the absolute worst place imaginable. From the bow to at least the mid-point of the boat, the waterflow over an unadulterated hull is laminar, and low drag. The attachment will break the flow right at the bow, and create drag-inducing swirls that will not reattach for some time.
What about some tiny vortex generators on the thick trailing edge of the foil? Are these used to solve boundary layer separation issues in hydrodynamics?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Jackdaw, your knowledge about hydrodynamics has always impressed me, though I fail to show it at times. In this case theory dictates how hydrodynamics should work and I think you have spelled that out. But theory does not always hold true. There might be something to the design that negates the theory and he just might get his point and maintain his speed without compromising anything. What do they say in English? The pudding is proof?
You're absolutely totally right thats possible. That's why I asked him what the results are! ;^)

I figure that there are 4 variables that could be affected here:

Boat speed
Pointing angle
Side slip
Maneuverability

Some might get better, some worse, some will stay that same. That will happen with ANY modification. I'm guessing based on what I think I know that:

Boat speed : slowed in moderate breeze to to extra drag and loss of laminar flow
Pointing angle : Perhaps slightly better due to increase in lifting surface
Side slip : No measurable change - sadly because THIS is the reason for 'lack of point'
Maneuverability: worse due to non-steerable appendage at the bow.
 

Bosman

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Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
The boat was modified to cutter rig. Addition of Code 0 moved centre of effort way ahead of centre of lateral resistance making the boat wanting to turn away from the wind. To counter this, deflection of the rudder is required = water drag. With this in mind, Andre's approach seems very much justified. The bow centreboard helped to move the centre of lateral resistance forward, possibly making the boat feel more neutral = less rudder deflection required to maintain course = more speed. At least in theory.
 
Jun 11, 2011
1,243
Hunter 41 Lewes
In theory then, you should have lengthened the hull by a footish or so, wow get ready to go faster too!
I'm glad it works for you, it was a great project.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,752
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
That formula doesn't really apply to modern sailboat design.
I don't mean to sound abrupt or come across as a know it all. When I read Jackdaw's reply, I was standing at the register at Lowes waiting for them to track down an item number. The bold test was a hast cut and paste job from Google, not some expression of feeling, if that was even considered by anyone. Jackdaw seems like someone who gives it straight and likes it given straight in return.
My point was that the term hull speed had a very specific meaning and no appendage or change of shape will change that. The number or ratio expressed in the formula actually misses the whole point of the concept because it sanitised it to math without context. Hull speed is still very much important in modern yacht design because of what it really represented, an expression of fluid dynamics and the application of Bernoulli equation to sailing. I'm sure most of you know this but I'll type it out loud for posterity.
As a body begins to move through the water it displaces and carries a volume of water forward with it. Fluids being what they are, try to return to their closest original state so, after plowing up on the bow it RACES to get back to where it was before. The racing water falls down the bow wave. The water moves against the boat faster in the resulting trough until it slows back down as the pressure caused by the bow's movement equalises to normal this causes the second peak in a wave and a wake is the result. When a boat is moving slowly, there are multiple waves that form along the waterline of the hull. The faster the boat moves, the more water is carried forward and displaced by the boat. The water in front is forced to change its inertia by the hull moving into it and then again by the hull moving out of it, the stern leaves a hole and the water races to fill it. Another way to see it is a movement from high to low pressure systems.
When the vessel increases speed the waves of the wake lengthen because more water is being moved aside faster and it takes more distance for the return to normal. Hull speed, conceptually, results when the length of a vessel's wake equals the length of her waterline. It is not nor was it ever a limit. It just means, after that point, any increase in force to increase speed has to also lift the boat upwards onto the bow wave. If there is enough force to drive the boat up that wave you get a planning boat.
The shape of a hull and the trim as well as amount of wetted surface are factors in determining the ease with which these various states are achieved.
When I was a boy, my father taught me all this and said it's all about wetted surface. A round bottom had less wetted surface than any other shape. About my high school years I heard that a sailboard held the world's speed record for mono-hull under sail. The speed was amazingly fast compared to the 3-9 knots I was use to. This and my college physics classes lead me to believe that flat bottoms with no rocker would actually be better because even though there was theoretically more wetted surface to cause drag, they could actually be lighter and a lot shallower meaning the distance the displaced water had to move to get out of the way was a lot less. That equates to less force, a shallower wake, less incline to climb. Wide flat hulls would be inherently more more stable so less weight in the keel translating to less displacement. This all means an easier boat to push through the water. Couple that with a natural stiffness from both wide and flat hulls and you get more power to push an easier to push hull.
As I've said, I'm not a racer, you all will know much better than I will but, I understand that a lot of races occur when the wind is less than optimal for a planing hull. Understanding the concept of hull speed might make a difference to winning those races.
As for the application of hull speed in modern yachting, there are a lot of threads here that discuss older, refurbished boats that both cruise and race.

I am happy to read and try to understand any points, objections or corrections any of you might have with my explanation of my understanding of hydrodynamic. I think I know what I think I know and I know I don't know most of it.

- Will (Dragonfly)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
When I read Jackdaw's reply, I was standing at the register at Lowes waiting for them to track down an item number. The bold test was a hast cut and paste job from Google, not some expression of feeling, if that was even considered by anyone. Jackdaw seems like someone who gives it straight and likes it given straight in return.
All true. Just to be clear. I repeatedly said BOAT SPEED. It was the OP (and you) who was using the term 'Hull Speed'.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,752
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Yes, I understand. Boat speed is much much more complicated. I am also very interested in hearing about the results of Sailavie1's bow mounted center board.
I always wanted to be a naval architect when I grew up. Now I'm a chicken farming mountain man with a sailboat under a tarp in my driveway.
I fear this project is the closest I'll ever get to my dream. BUT, I have BIG plans.
- Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Yes, I understand. Boat speed is much much more complicated. I am also very interested in hearing about the results of Sailavie1's bow mounted center board.
Great story!

Max hull speed is a funny thing. Until you get there, everything about the boat (LOA, keel, beam, etc) conspire to keep you away from it.

Boat speed at any particular time is key. The Delta between what you have and what you might have is the key. 10ths of a knot matter.
 
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Ted

.
Jan 26, 2005
1,256
C&C 110 Bay Shore, Long Island, NY
In addition to improving the pointing ability, this added frontal appendage reduces weather helm when flying my Code 0 and Jib simultaneously.
By adding the "frontal appendage" you have moved the combined center of lateral resistance forward which would increase weather helm or reduce lee helm. I don't see how it would help you reduce weather helm while flying your Code 0? I would have expected that you would have more lee helm especially if it was tacked to your bow sprit. Great project by the way!
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
This is where mooring neighbours and an abundance of toys, long winters and the inept ability to rationalize our way through things that we shouldn't even consider sometimes turn out well. Beer usually helps too.
(and the constant blah blah about catch me if you can) :)
 
Oct 31, 2012
464
Hunter 2008 H25 Lake Wabamun
I would have expected that you would have more lee helm especially if it was tacked to your bow sprit.
You are correct! I had my terminology backwards. Not the first time this has happened and surly not the last.
 
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Jun 8, 2004
10,067
-na -NA Anywhere USA
I have been reading this thread with interest but many of us are not engineers but in some manner we do understand and in my case I am an old hick from them thar mountains of Virginny.

I know that boat having introduced it, sold them, worked on them and so on. My instructor who use to be a pilot taught by turning the boat into the wind with a side wind on the boat going from point a to point b as if crabbing like a plane thru sail control, the same speed was maintained and that sometimes required some additional sail. Can someone explain then why all the fuss if this helped to maintain speed on the Hunter 25 shallow draft.
 
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
Wonder what would happen if a small rudder was added to the bow. :yikes:
 
Apr 27, 2010
1,240
Hunter 23 Lake Wallenpaupack
If a small rudder were added, this thread would at least double in number of posts :)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Wonder what would happen if a small rudder was added to the bow. :yikes:
Well its been done. And on an America's Cup boat to boot. The Gary Mull designed US-61, skippered by Tom Blackaller. The front canard-rudder was added mostly to add 'stearability', partially because AC designs of the time (12M) were pigs when it came to steering, and Blackaller loved to mix it up in the start. It didn't help enough, as he lost a well-fought match with DC 4-0.
19776.jpg


Every time I look at an image of 12M I'm struck by how stuck in an old rule there were. The tiny draft, short waterline, 3/4 fractional rig with jumper stays! Classic leadmine.
 
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Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
Hmmmm. It would suggest some changes to Sailavie over the winter. :)
 
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
I was thinking in terms of steerage into a slip in tight quarters.