Hunter smile / keel movement

May 14, 2023
6
Hunter 336 Venice
1996 Hunter 336 Shoal Draft Wing Keel

Yard Chronicles Day 5:

6 months after our survey haul out we are hauled out again for a bottom job and rudder repair that we knew about when we bought it. This time we noticed movement in the keel when it was on the travel lift the keel moves almost an inch or so left to right. Most of the movement appears to be around the keel joint. No water leaks into bilge. We suspect the boat had been grounded by the previous owner, and twice it has been softly grounded by us, we also dragged a crab pot for a mile or so before realizing recently. Our keel bolts were loose ish when we tested those. Started turning (tightening) at around 70 FT lbs. Mostly friction for the first 20 degrees of turning. We could not find the official specs for our bolts from Hunter but the chart circulating online said 135 ft lbs for 3/4” bolts and we were a bit nervous to do them that much. Since we also don’t know the condition of the bolts I only torqued to 85 ft lbs planning on to torquing to 100 ft lbs after i clean and lube the threads. I believe 124 ish was the max torque for 3/4 inch stainless bolts. Even after torquing the keel bolts we still have movement (torquing to 85 ft lbs didnt seem to reduce any movement). We are considering grinding down the cracks along the keel joint and filling with 5200 or Gflex, the fairing and paint. Also considering laying a few layers of glass around the joint also to add some strength (would fill the crack with something that the glass/epoxy would adhear to instead of 5200 if we chose this route). We know some flex is the nature of the beast for these boats and results in the “Hunter smile” ( however nobody is smiling at the moment). We are trying to figure out what is an acceptable amount of movement/flex and what is not acceptable? Anyone have experience with this issue and could determine the best option forward?


Spiraling here,
Thanks for any advice.
 

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dmax

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Jul 29, 2018
1,088
O'Day 35 Buzzards Bay
The keel really should not be moving a noticeable amount as the joint between the keel and the hull is meant to be pretty solid - an inch is way too much. Your keel bolts should probably be tightened in the 100-120 ft lb range as you say but 85 ft lb should be enough to hold the keel snug to the hull and not allow any (significant) movement. It sounds like the adhesive/filler between the keel and hull is failing and it's possible the keel bolts aren't up to snuff. Sorry to say, but I would recommend lowering the keel from the hull to inspect the joint and the bolts.
 
Jan 4, 2006
6,989
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
Sorry to say but I've got to double down on what @dmax has already said.

When your boat is on the hard, 99.99% of the total weight is on the keel. That's according to Hunter instructions. There should not be a micron of movement or you're going to see a smile. And very rarely do you see one.

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Also, you will come to regret it if you don't lower the keel and clean the joint until it is completely meticulously free from all deteriorated FG and other material. Once it's spotless, be sure to use enough 5200 to completely seal the keel and keel stub joint and still be able to splat a large amount of 5200 on to the boat beside you. It's open to debate, but I believe the joint is then covered with one or two layers of FG and then faired. Final torque is applied when the boat is on the hard. Go for the full torque.

I understand a number of previous Hunter employees are now with SBO and offer a consulting service. I don't think you can go too far wrong if you call them and get the official procedure from the people who used to do it.

One other thing you might consider is to "STOP RUNNING THE BOAT AGROUND".
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,309
-na -NA Anywhere USA
@dmax and @Ralph Johnstone are both correct particularly torqu per pounds and the use of 5200. I also recommend removing the keel too. You were given excellent advice. I am a former now retired Hunter Dealer.

Al Fooks is a former Hunter employee who now owns Sailboat Owners who worked building boats , warranty, sales and then employed by Sailboat Owners.

Joe Kerr also worked at Hunter building boats but he designed many of the electrical systems on board

Mike Thomas also a former Hunter employee ordered all the materials for Hunter Marine.

As for 5200 you have to let that cure before moving the boat for a week. Not sure if two layers of fiberglass was applied over the seal joint or not. That is a good question to ask at Hunterowners customer service. I didn’t add fiberglass but filled in with 5200 to scraping it smooth while still wet

As a backup, you can call Mars Metals in Canada who extruded the keels for Hunter Marine as to their recommendation
 
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May 14, 2023
6
Hunter 336 Venice
Gotcha. That’s definitely what we feared. We will definitely reach out to the Hunter customer service for specifics. Next step is the logistics with the yard. Another dumb question probably but renting the lift can’t be the only way right? With the keel dropped for an extended time can it safely be on the stands?
 
Jan 4, 2006
6,989
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
Dave's going to smack me if I'm wrong, but I think that sitting the hull on the stands without the keel taking all the weight will cause damage to the hull. Again, another question to ask the hunter think tank. Maybe you want to tie one or more of them down and give them the third degree. The logistics here are going to require experience.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,309
-na -NA Anywhere USA
@Ralph Johnstone

Without the keel attached , any boat of that size would buckle the stands. My post reflects after keel reattached to hull. One time I had a 38 footer with keel off with a report of a twister in the area. Dropped boat boat back on keel with straps still supporting hull. Put nuts on bolts and then left.
 
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Likes: JamesG161
Jan 4, 2006
6,989
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
This time we noticed movement in the keel when it was on the travel lift the keel moves almost an inch or so left to right.
Our keel bolts were loose ish when we tested those.
No need to drop the keel.
At one time, I presume the keel bolts were torqued to specs when they came from the factory. Now they're loose. I can only suspect the joint has moved back and forth so many times after the first grounding that it's filled with ground garbage. I don't think a solid fit will be possible until the joint is squeeky clean before the 5200 is applied. But, best left for the Hunter think tank.
 
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Likes: ggrizzard
May 14, 2023
6
Hunter 336 Venice
Thanks all for the input. Just got some different advice from the local keel guy basically saying it was normal. After being sand blasted the “smile crack” at the front of the keel turned out to be less severe then we expected. And revealed a place at the back corner to be drinded out and repaired as well. What continues to baffle us though is how otherwise good it looks. We’re very hesitant to cut into it as all the videos we’ve seen of others doing it are working with fun keels and our bulb keel seems to have a different attachment based on the sounds when knocking on it. We’ve only managed to find 3 keel bolts also and are still looking for the others.
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dmax

.
Jul 29, 2018
1,088
O'Day 35 Buzzards Bay
It does look like it's in good shape. He's saying 1" of movement is normal/ok? Seems like that would cause issues after a while.
 
Sep 24, 2021
386
Beneteau 35s5 Telegraph hrbr Thetis Island
...... We’ve only managed to find 3 keel bolts also and are still looking for the others.
I wouldn't think it should be so difficult to locate ALL your keel bolts! You'd expect to have to lift the sole plates, though....
 
Jan 4, 2006
6,989
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
The local keel guy or the people who used to build the boats ? ? ? ?

I'd want all the expert knowledge available.
 
Jan 4, 2006
6,989
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
I wouldn't think it should be so difficult to locate ALL your keel bolts! You'd expect to have to lift the sole plates, though....
They're usually in the bilge proud as can be :

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We’ve only managed to find 3 keel bolts also and are still looking for the others.
You're keel guy can't find the other bolts .................... and this doesn't worry you just a little bit ? Time to sit down, take a time out, and start asking yourself some serious questions. I can imagine you're under a lot of pressure to do the right thing now, but from my experienced and unpressured point of view, you're starting to make some very poor choices IMHO.

Talk to the experts and see what they say. A guy who's happy with an inch of keel movement, time to move on :facepalm: .
 
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Likes: JamesG161
Jul 26, 2023
5
Hunter 336 ct
Have you found more than three keelboats? I’ve only found three myself, but I believe that the bulb is also bolted through the bottom into the Fin.
 
Jul 26, 2023
5
Hunter 336 ct
Thanks all for the input. Just got some different advice from the local keel guy basically saying it was normal. After being sand blasted the “smile crack” at the front of the keel turned out to be less severe then we expected. And revealed a place at the back corner to be drinded out and repaired as well. What continues to baffle us though is how otherwise good it looks. We’re very hesitant to cut into it as all the videos we’ve seen of others doing it are working with fun keels and our bulb keel seems to have a different attachment based on the sounds when knocking on it. We’ve only managed to find 3 keel bolts also and are still looking for the others. View attachment 215794View attachment 215795View attachment 215796
Have you found more than three keelboats? I’ve only found three myself, but I believe that the bulb is also bolted through the bottom into the Fin.
Hello mystic blue. I’m presently dealing with a hunter 336 Keel repair myself, and I’m shocked that so far I’ve only found three keel bolts in the bilge. I find that shocking
 

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