Hunter 260 close hauled trouble

[SV Orion H260]

I've been able to sail my recently purchased hunter 260 about 8-10 times now and can't get any performance into the wind (15 knots) with anything over 3' waves. Is this a common problem with this boat or am I doing something wrong. New sails may help, but I'm no expert on this boat, and may be trimming them all wrong. I've sailed an older model Macgregor 24 that was probably half the weight but it easily outperformed the pointing ability of the 260 in the same conditions. I'm not really into racing, I just have enjoyed beating into the wind...until now. If I fall off I can gain some speed, but with the boat's large leeway, the minimal speed gain was not helping get me to the upwind destination any faster. In lighter winds and 1-2 foot waves, it performed better, but I enjoy sailing on lake Superior and there are often bigger wind driven waves

 

[DrJudyB]

I’d suggest the following basic items for a start.

Confirm that the hull is floating level when the crew are sitting in the cockpit. If it is floating in a bow up altitude, it will bet slapped around by waves, and the bow will get blown downwind by wind. Remove unnecessary weight from the stern. Relocate it to near the centerboard if possible, rather than the bow.

Confirm that the mast has about one degree of rake. Down load the manual and read page 19B for instructions on how to tune the mast.

Confirm that both the centerboard is Lowered completely.

Confirm that the bottom is reasonably clean.

If there’s no improvement after fixing the items above, it’s probably your steering and trimming techniques. Maybe you need sails, but I suspect to more than just that one problem.

 

[bdc1]

I own a 1999 260 and she goes in a close haul into the wind, her (The Doghouse, cause if you lookin for us... were out in the doghouse) performance into the wind is much better than when i run with the wind. A thing to consider is your angle of attack on those waves maybe a point or 2 of the wind and angling up across and over the waves rather than just through

 

[rgranger]

I have a 26 and not a 260 so maybe different but, I was surprised at how well my boat points. I'm less impressed with the performance on a run. One thing the 26 and 260 could benefit from is a traveler system. When pointing I use a sail tie to haul the sheet to windward. This small adjustments greatly improves the upwind performance a lot for my boat. YMMV

 

[SV Orion H260]

Thanks for all of your suggestions. The hull is very clean (only fresh water and stays on the trailer when we aren't sailing) and we just recently replace the centerboard line, so I don't think that either of those are the problem. I am assuming that my steering was too much into the waves and not tracking as bdc1 suggests. I also really like the idea of the sail-tie as a traveler replacement.

 

[jssailem]

I also really like the idea of the sail-tie as a traveler replacement.

I would not think of it as a replacement, more of a quick way to "Tweak" your boat trim. We sailors have used tweakers (lines that grab other lines to alter trim) for eons. They serve to test an adjustment and discover if such an adjustment can be used to improve our experience. Once we find something that works and repeating the tweak becomes common we find a more permanent solution. Thus the traveler was invented. Then the adjustable traveler was introduced. And it goes on.

Try the tweak and see if you like it. You may find a traveler in your future as you discover the advantages in your sailing.

 

[bdc1]

I have been thinking of a traveler right at the hatch opening. moving the sheet forward to make room for more bimini and well its a traveler

 

[rgranger]

I would not think of it as a replacement, more of a quick way to "Tweak"

I have been looking into this traveler for my boat...

But it is pricey... so I have been thinking about designing my own. Something like this....

 

[SV Orion H260]

I like the removable traveler idea except for my family of five moving about the cockpit. I'm certainly going to try the tweek line and may add a traveler in the future.

 

[rgranger]

You said in your original post that "new sails might help".

If you are having a lot of weather helm then your draft is definitely further aft than you want and it could be due to a blown out main. If your sail is blown, your draft is now too far behind your keel and the effect makes the boat want to turn into the wind. When I first got my boat, I had this problem and a new main helped a lot. But there are other reasons for weather helm. If your mast looks raked backwards, try loosening the shroud turn-buckles and tightening the forestay buckle. This will lean your mast forward. And that will move your draft forward. If that does not help ...Is your keel all the way down? If so, try raising it just a little bit. Because we have swing keels, raising the keel a little bit (a few inches) will move the center of lateral resistance aft without actually removing much of the keel from the flow of water and moving the CLR aft will help off-set the effect of a blown out main.

 

[SV Orion H260]

I had the mast tuned part way through this summer and that seemed to help a little. I have never heard of raising the keel a little - I'l definitely try that. The sails are original - not sure i have the funds to spring for new ones yet. Should I get both at the same time? If not which is more helpful first. Any sail companies to look into/stay way from? Also, what is the recommended max degree of heel on the 26/260 for performance? Thanks for all of the suggestions - this forum has been a great help.

 

[cb32863]

With your lazarette there, it will be difficult to put any kind of traveller in. All boats are a compromise "they" say. You can't really have it all. Need to decide what is most important for they type of sailing you are going to do. Maybe you just have to crack off a bit and so be it. As for heel, over 15 degrees is diminishing returns. Flat is fast.

 

[rgranger]

I had the mast tuned part way through this summer and that seemed to help a little. I have never heard of raising the keel a little - I'l definitely try that. The sails are original - not sure i have the funds to spring for new ones yet. Should I get both at the same time? If not which is more helpful first. Any sail companies to look into/stay way from? Also, what is the recommended max degree of heel on the 26/260 for performance? Thanks for all of the suggestions - this forum has been a great help.

When I got my boat, I purchased a new main first. That helped a lot. Two seasons later and the stitching on the genoa started to fail so I got that one next. My boat is very fast in light air... I can get to 5 kts in a 6 kts breeze but she tends to top out at about 5.8kts regardless of the wind speed.. If I get to about 5.8 kts and the wind picks up, I reef.

I got my sails from Bacon Sails out of Annapolis. They also sell them here on the SBO site. Bacon was a little cheaper but you could always ask SBO if they will price match.

Regarding heel... on water ballast boats you want to heel less than on traditional boats so, try to sail flatter.

 

[Meriachee]

@Sailavie1 may chime into the traveler discussion

 

[JimInPB]

Thanks for all of your suggestions. The hull is very clean (only fresh water and stays on the trailer when we aren't sailing) and we just recently replace the centerboard line, so I don't think that either of those are the problem....

Since you just replaced the centerboard line, I would look there first, to be sure that the line is long enough & the board is able to get fully down.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

There are things you should know from the standpoint of a dealer who introduced and sold nearly 1/4 of the of the Hunter 260's.
First with any boat, you cannot sail direct into the wind and there are some over the years who said I was wrong. Generally 15 degrees off point of wind is as far I would go into the wind. This of course was a water ballast boat designed for trailering. The hull itself is flatter than most other boats; therefore, I suggested never heeling over 12-14 degrees controlling the boat by sail inventory. It is best the jib which is a 110 should have a furling system. The main since there is no backstay was designed to be bigger than standard as the thought the power should be in the main. That said, the total area of the 110 jib and the main equaled to that of a standard main and a 135-140 genoa. Usually when the winds are in excess of 14 knots or more, I suggested reefing and practice. If for example the winds are blowing heavily say 19 knots, reef the main when going out and then the furling jib. You can always add a second mainsail reef if you want to sail in 20 plus knots but folks with you might not be comfortable so think of others who are with you.

Never sail direct into waves but rather at angles. You can raise the centerboard going downwind but at any other point of sail, leave the centerboard down. There will be disagreement from others, but the above information is based on experience and knowledge.

As for travelers, I never felt one was necessary and thus never suggested them. With practice and time you will learn. Sails that are old can as Rgranger said, can affect some performance. As for installation of any travelers say attachment to the back seat rest in the cockpit wall, forget about it. Access is hard plus there is positive foam floatation in that area. The ceiling liner in the cabin particularly in the rear berth is a liner only and not structural. Therefore, never secure the bolts holding down the traveler via the ceiling liner as it is not structural. You will need to cut a 2 inch holes in the liner to access the underneath of the protruding bolts to secure under the deck itself. As for the holes in the ceiling liner, you can purchase plastic caps either in white, black or beige at Ace or Home Depot. Probably at Lowes as well. That will cover the holes with a cover but suggest buying the caps first so you know what to cut in the ceiling as they come in various sizes.

Let the suth sayers begin

 

[Sailavie1]

I make a point of never contradicting @Crazy Dave Condon when it comes to his knowledge and background with Hunter boats. However, adding a main sheet traveler did improved the pointing ability on my 2007 Hunter 25. A traveler allows for much more control in all points of sail and especially in pointing. As for proper mounting, the center of the traveler is attached to the original main sheet bracket and is split out to spread the load over a wider area. The ends are bolted to the seat back rests with backing plates. Access to the inside was gained by cutting hand size rectangular openings in the liner. The liner cut-outs were reinstalled and secured with mahogany trim frames.
As mentioned earlier, new sails also helped but if I had to choose only one addition, I would go with a traveler.

 

[DrJudyB]

First with any boat, you cannot sail direct into the wind and there are some over the years who said I was wrong. Generally 15 degrees off point of wind is as far I would go into the wind. This of course was a water ballast boat designed for trailering.

Oops. I think there’s a typo in what dave wrote. Sailboats don’t sail 15 degrees off the wind.

Most cruisers can sail about 45 degrees off the true wind angle-for a tacking angle of about 90 degree angle to the true wind of about 25-30 depress into the apparent wind.

If you’re looking at a windex at the masthead, it’s showing you apparent wind angles. If you set the windex arms to 55 or 60 degrees apart, and you can keep the arrow inside the arms when you’re hard on the wind, then you’re doing okay.

Judy B

 

[rgranger]

I make a point of never contradicting @Crazy Dave Condon when it comes to his knowledge and background with Hunter boats. However, adding a main sheet traveler did improved the pointing ability on my 2007 Hunter 25. A traveler allows for much more control in all points of sail and especially in pointing. As for proper mounting, the center of the traveler is attached to the original main sheet bracket and is split out to spread the load over a wider area. The ends are bolted to the seat back rests with backing plates. Access to the inside was gained by cutting hand size rectangular openings in the liner. The liner cut-outs were reinstalled and secured with mahogany trim frames.
As mentioned earlier, new sails also helped but if I had to choose only one addition, I would go with a traveler.

That looks perfect!!!!

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

A wise old sailor well known in this industry once told me learning from the experienced and knowledgable wise old sailors was suggested. I learned a lot to include selling, sailing and repairing besides other things most of you never experienced. Therefore here we go.

This thread is on the Hunter 260 which replaced the 26 but both boats are the same hull, sail plan, same weights and widths, etc.... Therefore, I will stick with this boat and I respect those who actually own them. Sometimes we disagree but have learned from each other and one fellow is Rob Granger or Rgranger.
Each different model or manufactured boat is different in sailing and handling characteristics. The Hunter 25, 2007 model, is a shallow draft keel boat which is different than the water ballasted 260; thus there are differences. Thus a traveler might work but never installed one on the ones sold although we can agree to disagree but do value Sailavie 1 experience and handling. As for the Hunter 260, it was designed as a trailerable pleasure cruising sailboat and sold with the necessary equipmnet to meet the guidelines for that intent. It is up to the owner who wants to install equipment and not for me to say no. I only spoke my preference and felt challenged on ocassion but will stick to my belief based on experience. The only reason I even mentioned it was to let sailors who want to install one what to expect in way of construction and suggestions for the travelers I did install.....By the way, I appreciate the experience of installing one on a Hunter 25 by Sailavie 1. Thanks.

A good friend of mine sailed the Hunter 260 prototype with me before manufacture began near St. Augustine, Florida who helped me rig it. It was a nice day with 10 knots of wind with very little waves; thus it was a pleasurable day for sailing. He was at the helm sailing off the wind by 15 degrees but performance greater if off the wind further. We both were surprised. He felt a traveler when asked by me was not needed but the decision which I concurred with is a decision for the buyer. My friend was a well known for boat building and racing just like others I knew in this industry. His name was Warren Lurs, CEO and owner of Hunter Marine. He had more experience than most and I appreciated the time spent. OOPS, I mispelled Lurs which should be Luhrs Judy B.