Hull Cracked / Deck Damaged - Beneteau 311

Captn TJ · Feb 16, 2013

Raul

Having had 4 Beneteaus over the past 30 years - never heard of a situation like this.

The typical chainplate arrangement for Beneteau is to have the shrouds terminate on deck into a plate. This plate is bolted to a similar plate underneath the deck with a large stainless rod carrying the load/tension to a u bolt glassed to the lower hull.

Last year I had the shroud plate rebedded on my 423 because of a leak. The factory advised the dealer on the tension for the connecting rod under the deck (which has a turnbuckle) as over tensioning would compress the deck around the shroud and ultimately crack it. Simple hand tightening was all that was required.

I bring that up because if these stainless rods were overtensioned that might contribute to your problem. Since you have the problem around the hull deck joint you should probably check both the deck and hull around the compression post since downward pressure on the mast may have caused a problem there as well.

Also curious: was the mast down when you bought it? If so who rigged the boat. Was a prepurchase survey done?

Lee Hadjiosif · Feb 17, 2013

raul bandas said:
TJ,

I have attached three pictures which illustrate the extent of the damage caused to the deck and hull. The damaged chainplates for the upper and lower shrouds are attached to bulkheads. Also, I don't have the rigging history on this boat yet, but I will certainly ask the previous owner. With respect to the mast, it wasn't down when I purchased the boat. Lastly, I did commission a survey inspection prior to the purchase, which BTW passed with flying colors. Thank you for the kind advice.

RB

If I were you, I would hire a good lawyer and sue the seller, the surveyor, and the manufacturer. It looks like a structural defect and this boat will never be worth anywhere near what you paid. Your insurance may cover this and may also help you with the lawsuit. If you have a loan, you should also let the bank know since they will be interested in helping you out. Good luck.
Lee

finding41 · Feb 17, 2013

Captn TJ said:
Raul

Having had 4 Beneteaus over the past 30 years - never heard of a situation like this.

The typical chainplate arrangement for Beneteau is to have the shrouds terminate on deck into a plate. This plate is bolted to a similar plate underneath the deck with a large stainless rod carrying the load/tension to a u bolt glassed to the lower hull.

Last year I had the shroud plate rebedded on my 423 because of a leak. The factory advised the dealer on the tension for the connecting rod under the deck (which has a turnbuckle) as over tensioning would compress the deck around the shroud and ultimately crack it. Simple hand tightening was all that was required.

I bring that up because if these stainless rods were overtensioned that might contribute to your problem. Since you have the problem around the hull deck joint you should probably check both the deck and hull around the compression post since downward pressure on the mast may have caused a problem there as well.

Also curious: was the mast down when you bought it? If so who rigged the boat. Was a prepurchase survey done?

I responded to the other thread in add all sailors already but I think the description above and your interior picture posted above demonstrates my thought that the boat wasn't built to Beneaeau standards.
Note: Get a lawyer involved and get some advice as to posting online. ( You don't want this turned into something it should be. It will help your claim.)
Good luck. Sorry about the boat.

Ron20324 · Feb 17, 2013

Re: Hull cracked / Deck damaged

I have a B323, and at 20 to 25, I would have had the main reefed. Not having been there with you, it's impossible to speculate if the rigging was over-canvased and undue pressure on the rigging and mast. Perhaps the bow smacked down into a awave? Since you had a survey done and other possible causes, I'd think it is hard to point blame.

Captn TJ · Feb 18, 2013

Raul

This should not have happened in 20-25 kts of wind regardless of how much sail was up. If you were over canvassed you would have been knocked down.

The chainplate arrangement is quite a departure from what I'm use to seeing on Beneteau's. is there another 311 that you can look at to see if the same arrangement exists? What is also interesting is that this is a 10 yr old boat. At some point it should have been through some high winds and manufacturing problems would have been visible.

My armchair analysis is that the rigging was way over tensioned on both sides with the high winds/full sails contributing to the damage.

sandpiper10471 · Feb 18, 2013

Re: Hull cracked / Deck damaged

My armchair tells me someone removed the structural struts in order to renovate the interior and failed to reinstall them. Go after the surveyor who should have caught this.

peoples1234 · Feb 18, 2013

Re: Hull cracked / Deck damaged

The chain plate attachment on the 311 appears to be different from the 321 I have, from the pictures on the internet there is no strut.

This is the 321

This is the 311

Also you can see that the chainplates terminate on the toe rail instead of the deck like most of the other beneteau's I have seen.

Perhaps the 311 does not have the strut?

Jim21895 · Feb 18, 2013

Re: Hull cracked / Deck damaged

What's the rest of the story about your sailing conditions. Do you think it is possible that you hit something underwater? Did you stuff the bow into a wave while sailing off the wind on port tack? Did you gybe hard at any time, allowing the main to slam into the port side rigging? You don't tell us how well you were handling the winds and seas.

I agree that these things should not normally happen when properly sailing a properly rigged boat in 25 mph winds.

anchorclanker · Feb 18, 2013

Not only does there not appear to be a bulkhead, there does not appear to be any stay/chainplate ties to the hull.

I get the feeling this is not as it came from the factory? Beneteau has a good reputation as much as I have read, just cant imagine this is how it was made. Also cant imagine a surveyor wouldnt have seen this, but they cant see everything?

Ron20324 · Feb 18, 2013

same as a B323

People's last picture on deck is a good example also of my 323. The stanchions are angled out, and they always hit the pilings when moving in/out of the slip and other boats when rafting up. One lifeline was between the shrouds, and the other was outside of both shrouds. Not a "squared ship", to say the least! Also, you can see that if you are leaning on the lifelines, you are already outboard of the toerail, and "off" the boat. I took my stanchions to the local shop and had them bent inward at the base and all is well. The lifelines now are between the shrouds, giving the LLs additional support.

And yes, my shrouds are anchored at the toerail, no doubt to get them as far outboard as possible..

ph034495 · Feb 19, 2013

311 deck damaged

sorry about this event to your boat. I must say i was amazed at the damage from such a small gust. I sail in Hawaii were we routinely get gusts in excess if 35 knots! Knock downs are not uncommon and I could not believe that your hull did not have chain plates continuing the shrouds to a more rigid attachment. I went to the beneteau web site to look at the 311 spare parts and compare the 311 with the 321(middle picture) and 323 (right picture), it appears as discussed that the 311 (left picture) terminates at the deck joint.. Hope insurance covers this one. i will follow thread good luck..
don

DJBrookster · Feb 21, 2013

Ron20324 said:
People's last picture on deck is a good example also of my 323. The stanchions are angled out, and they always hit the pilings when moving in/out of the slip and other boats when rafting up. One lifeline was between the shrouds, and the other was outside of both shrouds. Not a "squared ship", to say the least! Also, you can see that if you are leaning on the lifelines, you are already outboard of the toerail, and "off" the boat. I took my stanchions to the local shop and had them bent inward at the base and all is well. The lifelines now are between the shrouds, giving the LLs additional support.

And yes, my shrouds are anchored at the toerail, no doubt to get them as far outboard as possible..

Ron, with all due respect, I totally agree with your first post, a 323 is very tender and needs to be reefed early. However, your second post makes little sense in relation to the OP.

Ron20324 · Feb 21, 2013

DJBrookster said:
However, your second post makes little sense in relation to the OP.

Sorry if you wasted precious time reading it, never the less the time to take me to task on helpng my fellow Beneteau owners. Do you do that to every post you don't like? If I did, I'd never get off the compouter-so I let them slide. Your only post offering to this thread has even less to do with the OP. My two cents.

Otherwise, the deck picture was just right, as the picture showed what I referred to about the lifelines. Something maybe people don't think about untill someone else mentions it. Also, I don't recall anyone pointing out the shrouds were on the towrail to give the mast better support.

Jackdaw · Feb 22, 2013

Ouch. Very sorry to see this.

This type of rigging is becoming more and more popular; shrouds out to the gunwales. Wider rig base hence less tension. When this is done, typically there is a structure on the HULL to take the rigging load, or transfer it to the structural grid.

Thie only thing I can think of is that the mast was re-rigged and way too much tension was put on. Typically you load the rig with 20% or breaking strength and expect maybe 50%. I'd take a very close look at who did the rigging and how. Maybe metallurgy can be examined to understand how much tension the rig was under.

Good luck with the boat. Hope it can be saved. But if your insurance gives you a good out, take it.

Maine Sail · Feb 22, 2013

This is what I see from the images posted. If you have more images with better detail please post them.

INSIDE:

OUTSIDE:

It appears to me that the inward flange on the hull is potentially thin when compared to the washer holding the stanchion (probably a thick washer for the loads). Part of the flange is stuck to the deck and part of it stuck to the hull, so it split in two/delaminated. It is a little tough to get a feel for thickness from the images..

Still, from the pictures, I can't see any signs of reinforcement of that area, as in a thicker glass layup or ways to "distribute" the loads imparted by the chain plates to the hull flange & hull..

The actual chain plate backing plates are also VERY, VERY small to hold up a spar on a 31 footer without any "struts" helping to take the loads off the deck. I would expect to see that chain plate design on a small day sailor but not on larger cruising boat?

I can't imagine this is the way it left the factory? Someone please tell me it did not leave that way....

Perhaps another Beneteau 311 owner, who is concerned about these images, will open up access to his chain plates and post some photos??

Here's a 36' fin keel sloop for the sake of comparison..

Not saying the Beneteau needs to be built to this level, but it is how some builders/designers deal with these loads... In the past I have been very impressed with the Beneteau chain plate designs, especially on the First series of boats.

watercayman · Feb 22, 2013

I'm really sorry to hear about this, especially as you just got the boat.

My 311 has the same basic system, though it is nearly impossible to see very much without completely taking out the cabinetry. I suspect the 323 is the same, as my boat (a 2005 model) was so late off the line it had many of the 323 parts and schematics stuck into it. It does feel like the glass around this area is reinforced. How much, I can't tell.

I spoke to an engineer friend who noted that the stress would also be taken up and spread out via the toe rail, which the chain goes through and is attached to the deck at ~3 inch intervals. He thought there was plenty of support by this design. I'm no engineer.

I did a lot of research on this model before purchase. Between this and the 323 there were over 500 boats produced. The 311 model was dominant in Europe and the 323 more so in the USA. This is the first time I've ever seen anything like this. The 311 was a very popular charter boat for a good 5 years in the Mediterranean. If that doesn't stress test the boat, I'm not sure what will. I typically sail the boat in 16-20kts of wind, with various amounts of sail, and have been out in 20+ for short periods before reefing. The boat rounds up when significantly over-canvassed, and to me this seems like a built-in stress relief on the chain plates. This being said, I have never jibed the boat in that force of wind... but I'm guessing those charter boats likely have.

It is also interesting to note that the big-brother 331 does have the strut, but the chain plate does not go through the toe-rail, but rather it is about 1 foot inwards.

The comments below about the rigging potentially being over-tightened or a poor quality control issue seem to make the most sense to me given the complete lack of previously reported failure.

I wish you the best and hope you are able to resolve it and enjoy the boat again.

Mike

Jackdaw · Feb 23, 2013

That construction is unlike any I've seen in a Beneteau.. Our 3 Firsts have had SS rods that tie the deck fitting to the structural grid. Our first 260 (with 400 sqr ft of sail) has outboard shrouds like yours and they terminate with this fitting on the hull. Inside the hull is double thickness down to the grid. I hope you get this sorted, keep us informed.

Fly_H23 · Feb 23, 2013

I'm amazed to see so little backing and no hull attached chain plates. Even my O'day 26 and Hunter 23 had stronger attachments.

What is the tension like after the damage? If they are both still very tight, it's clear they were over tensioned.

Hopefully she can be repaired and reinforced. Have you contacted Beneteau?

Hull Cracked / Deck Damaged - Beneteau 311

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