high water?

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,768
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
To be fair, the current basilica was started in 1063, roughly a thousand years ago. That was long before the industrial revolution and the use of fossil fuels.

It really makes the case for thinking about the long term consequences of what and where build and the unintended consequences of other actions, such as the burning of fossil fuels and increased CO2 levels.

The Sirocco winds are the same dynamics that flooded the Annapolis Boat Show, water goes up, can't drain out.
I'm glad not to live on the 'front line' these days (Venice, Annapolis, Manhattan, etc).

Still, the dynamics of weather during high water events are pretty universal along all the coasts. We have the same wild card; tidal range. We also share the added effect of sea level rise to contend with and that rise has accelerated in the last several decades.

Locally, most communities along our tidal shoreline here in Maine - even those a bit inland but on tidal rivers and estuaries - are taking steps to combat the effects of climate change that will play a large part in the speed of sea level rise.

Typical town planning deals with coastal erosion; an ongoing process from day one on the coast. Today that coastal erosion is accelerating and thankfully, most of our local communities confer.

A major cost factor to consider is preventive action vs. waiting for the damage to be done. There are savings opportunities in taking action now,...but $$ is always tight.

I was glad to see in our towns latest infrastructure bond that $$ were allocated for pier work. We're getting high tide events that are cresting the seawall in our harbor, more regularly.

It's amazing how much damage occurs once wave action is over the top of a stone wall - jetty. The seas wash out between the fragile top layer of the stones loosening their bond. Movement begins rapidly. The sea is relentless.

Our local town works have been drilling pins into the large stone top layer of our sea wall and running heavy cables to try to stabilize the stone cribbing. I can see from the washed out stonework, that it's not working. The wall is collapsing in places.

Fortunately, our harbor is low with few buildings so we can in time (and large expense), raise it to a safer level.

We're lucky, we can stay ahead of it.

Just down the coast, the Rockland breakwater was awash with an astronomical high tide a week or two ago. These are not uncommon to see. This is an East wind, Rockland Harbor's worst wind if it were not for the mile long sea wall.
Rockland breakwater astronomical high tide 11.9'.jpg


You can imagine what damage the water can do to the large loose stone layer on top. Do you raise it now? Do you let it go under? Tough call.

rockland-maine-lighthouse low tide.jpg
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,828
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
I have discovered in reading about Indian names that it just is.
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,745
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
breakwater was awash with an astronomical high tide
But all tides are Astronomical ;)

Using FEMA engineering designs for near coast or wave action that can undermine a foundation...
Reference
https://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/20130726-1510-20490-1088/fema55_voli_frontmatter.pdf

You need a Wave Shield.

But wait, that Jetty is a WAVE SHIELD.:thumbup:

Sounds like it is working.

So...
Let me get this straight
1) you need a shield to protect the shield
And/Or
2) you need to reinforce the shield.

Simple solutions...
1) Build another Jetty [shield] higher than the first one.
or
2) Add more "wave breaks" [concrete chucks] to extend the diameter of the Light house building point.
or
3) Do nothing to the rare event of wind combined with Tides.
or
4) Extend to first shield further out

No cost for my engineering...:cool:
Jim...
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,768
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
No cost for my engineering...:cool:
Jim...
Your engineering is worth your charge. :biggrin:

Rockland breakwater, like many sea walls, has important public uses beyond breaking seas. Thousands - local and visitors alike - take the long walk out to the lighthouse, year after year.

It's a place to picnic, take photos, watch races, exercise you name it. I'll bet it's worth $$ to raise it and save the public space.

Rockland-Breakwater-Lighthouse pedestrians.jpg
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,828
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
I think you nailed it Tom. The jetty/wave break is a valuable resource for the community. Like when it was originally conceived, the $$’s are probably worth the expenditure to adapt to the changing climate.

While we discuss the different views about cause, it makes no sense to ignore the symptoms. If we want to enjoy the past experiences, we will need to expend $$’s to keep the aging experiences. I say this as I am throwing out items in the garage that I have kept because I might reuse them.
 

DArcy

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,767
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
Humans come up with all kinds of ways to solve problems we mostly created for ourselves. We like to be around water but that puts us at risk when the environment throws things at us we didn't see coming.
In spring 2017 we had "100 year flood" which flooded the lower bar at my club.
20170507_150719.jpg

Efforts were taken to avoid flooding, the break water wall was rebuilt and a plan was developed to make plywood splash boards above the wall.
Spring 2019 saw water a foot and a half HIGHER than the 100 year event in 2017. There were a lot of sand bags placed by a lot of volunteers. The splash boards were put in place, backed up with sand bags and several pumps were brought in. We managed to keep water out of the building but it took a lot of manpower and shut down the bar for a couple of weeks :yikes:
20190520_174551.jpg

A very keen and knowledgeable member drew up plans for a new barrier wall, with integrated mounting for rigid splash boards, that would not require sand bagging. He also came up with a plan to allow the water to drain off into the harbour so pumps would not be required inside the house and the bar could stay open! :D The new wall is almost complete.
20191115_130137.jpg
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,828
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Humans come up with all kinds of ways to solve problems we mostly created for ourselves.
I recently read "Rising Tide: The Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and How it Changed America". It is a review of what wise men thought about and did in an effort to tame the Mississippi River to their will.
  • Between 1718-27 a levee was built around New Orleans modeling those in France. It was 5400 ft long ,18 ft wide at the crown with a roadway 4 ft high, and had a slope of 1:2
  • According to information from the Army Corps of Engineers: New Orleans District office shows levee elevations in the Lower 9th Ward at “between 20 and 21 feet.”
  • And according to these same engineers this is not high enough.

I you just want to explore the cliff notes version, here is a presentation by:
J. David Rogers, Ph.D., P.E., R.G.Natural Hazards Mitigation Institute, Department of Geological Engineering University of Missouri-Rolla​
Perhaps Mark Twains thoughts state it best...

Ten thousand River Commissions...
cannot tame that lawless stream...
cannot say to it,
"Go here," or "Go there,"
and make it obey.
- Mark Twain
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,745
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
I'll bet it's worth $$ to raise it and save the public space.
Great idea!

1) Build another Jetty [shield] higher than the first one.
I have always said in many of my Science, Math, Weather, Lightning, Chemistry and Engineering comments...

My advice is worth what you paid for it.:pimp:

Jim...

PS: I don't give advice unless I am fairly dang sure I am right or close to it.
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,536
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
FYI, here are 80 pages of sea level science from the IPCC. https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/WG1AR5_Chapter13_FINAL.pdf

I will just highlight a few snips from this document. First is sea level rise to around now. You will have to dig into that document to see why there are multiple plots and how rising or setting land can affect tidal measurements but from 1700 to around 1900, there was relatively little change. After around 1900, there has been minor rise and then only maybe .25 to .3 meter rise (say 8 to 11 inches).

IPCC2.jpg


All the science and complications of predictions is somewhere in these 80 pages..but here is one snip. These all have ranges of predictions for what will change by 2100 (80 years from now) but lets say an average is .5 meter or 1.6 feet. Maybe not as bad as you "heard" somewhere?

IPCC1.jpg


A final bit of sea level reality is from satellite data. There are some places that have taken tidal measurements that are either sinking or rising but since 1993, satellites have been measuring sea level rise so there is no influence from land rising or settling Sea Level | NASA Global Climate Change

Between 1993 and present, (26 years) the sea level rise has been measured by satellite and is 95 mm or 3.7 inches. Is that a "its only risen 3.7 inches in 26 years" or "holy cow, sea level is rising 3.7 inches every 26 years and that rate is increasing".. dont know.
 
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JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,745
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
single events or data points
Darn it.

My trend analysis is great with just one point.:clap:

But...

like most tends I see, it does take at least TWO points to draw a straight line.:cowbell:
Jim...

PS: Follow the Polar Ice data. So far Antarctica is way up. Now wait until Jan 2020 for the Rest of the Story.
 
  • Like
Likes: jssailem
Jan 11, 2014
12,756
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Darn it.

My trend analysis is great with just one point.:clap:

But...

like most tends I see, it does take at least TWO points to draw a straight line.:cowbell:
Jim...

PS: Follow the Polar Ice data. So far Antarctica is way up. Now wait until Jan 2020 for the Rest of the Story.
I was going to mention the quality of your data. Is it possible the recording of the 1825 event might have been enhanced? Perhaps some artistic license? :poke:
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,828
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Artistic License is possible. Yet even then it usually has some basis in reality. If it was totally inaccurate it would have been destroyed or denounced as fraudulent and not preserved all these years..

Isn't that also true of scientific discovery. We have theory and data used too explain the unexplained.

Sometimes the data is used or discarded if it does not support the theory. That is until the data can be understood and then the theory is questioned or altered to recognize the data. The problem arises that sometimes it takes time and new insight to understand the data.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,947
O'Day Mariner 19 Littleton, NH
@JamesG161 you know better, it is not scientific to rely on single events or data points to make statements about larger trends and theories.:)
You can't point to a single event and use it as an example of one trend or another. That is, unless that single event can only happen if 'X', then if that event, 'X' is true.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Aug 2, 2010
528
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
You can't point to a single event and use it as an example of one trend or another. That is, unless that single event can only happen if 'X', then if that event, 'X' is true.

-Will (Dragonfly)
This behaviour makes the whole process of understanding and prioritizing almost impossible for the layman. I am the furthest thing from a climate change denier, but I vividly remember some supposedly reliable entity braying about how the low water levels in Lake Ontario in 2016 were climate change related and how the Great Lakes would never recover. Usher in 2017 with record high water levels and again people claiming it is global warming.
Kind of like trying to figure out the truth by listening to the facts as stated by CNN or Fox....they cannot both be right!
 
May 25, 2012
4,338
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
here comes another big water maker for the michigan/huron area this week.