high water?

Jan 1, 2006
7,069
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
A friend who used to be a town trustee (In this juristriction Trustee's oversee the waterways and shore) responded to my query. Water temperatures hovered in the 80 - 83 degree for a lot of the summer. What was unusual was that the warm temps began in June which is significantly earlier than usual. The actual high temp is not unusual. There was a welcome absence of "Algae" blooms. The scallop die off will be the subject of investigation. Prolly Stony Brook. There is a Dr. Dobler there who has published work on nitrogen loading of the South Shore estuaries.
Interestingly, most of the scallops were found in Flanders Bay which is the most shallow and smallest of the bays. It is also the one you might expect the most nitrogen loading since it is the outflow of the Riverhead sewer system (Which is pretty good.) The scallop decline has occurred over the last 30 years and is usually pegged to the die off of Eel Grass which suffered a major decline in the 30's. It hasn't really recovered.
I can point out that oyster mariculture has increased in recent years. Reports of good water clarity may mean that the oysters are eating the scallops lunch. I was skeptical about what difference the oysters would make but you have to at least consider that. As far as I know the oysters didn't suffer from the high water temps. Orient Harbor is loaded with oyster floats.
For those that don't know bay scallops are arguably the best thing you may ever taste. They only live three years and according to the experts the limits on size, and season, insure that breeding scallops aren't taken. So, it isn't thought to be overfishing - but I take that with a grain of salt because there is significant economic interest in scalloping. I personally don't think anyone should get a scallop license unless their family has lived on the East End for 300 years or so.
Yes, water temps could indeed be the problem. But don't forget the problem was not the inability to spawn. It was a die off of maturing scallops mid summer.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,401
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
A friend who used to be a town trustee (In this juristriction Trustee's oversee the waterways and shore) responded to my query. Water temperatures hovered in the 80 - 83 degree for a lot of the summer. What was unusual was that the warm temps began in June which is significantly earlier than usual. The actual high temp is not unusual. There was a welcome absence of "Algae" blooms. The scallop die off will be the subject of investigation. Prolly Stony Brook. There is a Dr. Dobler there who has published work on nitrogen loading of the South Shore estuaries.
Interestingly, most of the scallops were found in Flanders Bay which is the most shallow and smallest of the bays. It is also the one you might expect the most nitrogen loading since it is the outflow of the Riverhead sewer system (Which is pretty good.) The scallop decline has occurred over the last 30 years and is usually pegged to the die off of Eel Grass which suffered a major decline in the 30's. It hasn't really recovered.
I can point out that oyster mariculture has increased in recent years. Reports of good water clarity may mean that the oysters are eating the scallops lunch. I was skeptical about what difference the oysters would make but you have to at least consider that. As far as I know the oysters didn't suffer from the high water temps. Orient Harbor is loaded with oyster floats.
For those that don't know bay scallops are arguably the best thing you may ever taste. They only live three years and according to the experts the limits on size, and season, insure that breeding scallops aren't taken. So, it isn't thought to be overfishing - but I take that with a grain of salt because there is significant economic interest in scalloping. I personally don't think anyone should get a scallop license unless their family has lived on the East End for 300 years or so.
Yes, water temps could indeed be the problem. But don't forget the problem was not the inability to spawn. It was a die off of maturing scallops mid summer.
Thank you for the insights. Yes, bay scallops are delicious. :)
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,401
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
This article is in today's NY Times. It highlights some of the political, social, environmental, and economic issues facing power generation. Thought it was interesting and relevant to this thread.

 
Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
The big debate around climate change is centered around CO2 in the atmosphere, and, I assume, that is measurable, but all this talk about ocean temperatures rising coupled with the revelation about the existence of a giant floating trash island in the middle of the Pacific, leads me to wonder if there is any effort to determine if the ocean's composition has any significant effect on its retention of solar energy.
There is an effort to clean up the oceans, but is it because we are worried about poisoning a habitat or is there anyone suggesting that our oceans may be part of the climate change problem?

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
The big debate around climate change is centered around CO2 in the atmosphere, and, I assume, that is measurable, but all this talk about ocean temperatures rising coupled with the revelation about the existence of a giant floating trash island in the middle of the Pacific, leads me to wonder if there is any effort to determine if the ocean's composition has any significant effect on its retention of solar energy.
There is an effort to clean up the oceans, but is it because we are worried about poisoning a habitat or is there anyone suggesting that our oceans may be part of the climate change problem?

-Will (Dragonfly)
Will, I totally agree with your last point. Conflation of these many important issues simply makes the really important information impossible to glean. Both sides need to stop shouting the other side down and start accumulating facts and prioritizing them.
 
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Sep 25, 2008
7,096
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
The big debate around climate change is centered around CO2 in the atmosphere, and, I assume, that is measurable, but all this talk about ocean temperatures rising coupled with the revelation about the existence of a giant floating trash island in the middle of the Pacific, leads me to wonder if there is any effort to determine if the ocean's composition has any significant effect on its retention of solar energy.
There is an effort to clean up the oceans, but is it because we are worried about poisoning a habitat or is there anyone suggesting that our oceans may be part of the climate change problem?

-Will (Dragonfly)
Everything is interrelated. Increased solar radiation causes ice cap fluctuation which in turn causes ocean temperature fluctuation which affects ambient temperature which is a result of again solar radiation.

Add changes in solar output, fluctuation of earth’s orbit and some other ingredients in the cake mix like thermal mixing, atmospheric changes introduced from methane emissions from the ocean, CO2 emissions, volcanic emissions, etc... and the picture gets complicated.

Our capability to observe the net effect on the environment is well established but we have a long road ahead before we can assign values to the contribution each variable has on the world.
 
Feb 14, 2014
7,418
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Add changes in solar output, fluctuation of earth’s orbit and some other ingredients in the cake mix like thermal mixing, atmospheric changes introduced from methane emissions from the ocean, CO2 emissions, volcanic emissions, etc... and the picture gets complicated.
The Thermosphere is the term.

Trivia: The first unfiltered measurement of our Sun was first done in 1973 by Sky Lab.

This may be of interest on the Heat Balance for the Earth.
The Chill of Solar Minimum
____
More Trivia: Our Sun orbits the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. We are now in the roughly the same orbital position of ≈790,000,000 years ago, when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth. Galactic Orbit
_____
There 2 large Coronal Holes that facing Earth today. These Holes cause long duration solar winds to hit us with Geomagnetic and Proton Storms. This storm will began to hit the Earth on...

November 16th, 2019

Watch out for GPS, Cell Phone service, and boat radar interference.:yikes:

Jim...
 
Feb 14, 2014
7,418
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Galactic Year prognosis is rather grim
Depends on your point of view....
No more CO2 problems in just 4 short Galactic years.;)
Jim...

PS: More trivia: The Moon moves away from the Earth 2 inches per year. Reference Apollo moon landings.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
21,088
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
The winter weather door looks open and snowing on the Great Lakes parade. Perhaps Snow for Thanksgiving. Forecast models indicating accumulation up to 20 inches in the next 10 days for Traverse City and the UP of Michigan. Lesser amounts as you move south towards Indiana.

These cold temps are influenced by the large High pressure area currently along the Arctic Circle and NW of Alaska. The Jet Stream is moving across northern Canada into the Mid West and Into the NorthEast of the country. These winds are bringing the cold dry air aloft.
IMG_1702,jpeg.jpg
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Speaking of high water, the Aqua Alta in Venice hit it's second highest record. They've been dealing with Aqua Alta (high water in Italian) for centuries.

Not only did Venice start 'on' the water, the buildings and lands beneath have been sinking, likely since they were built(on pilings).

Fall storms and high tide flood various parts of the city, routinely. They just deal with it with bulwarks that fit in/over door thresholds.

Tourists are handed high boots and life goes on. Over the centuries, stone building floors, doors, landings have simply risen. Over time, whole stories have gone below the water. Stone buildings are particularly good for dealing with these flooding events. They dry out without the same loss typical wooden and metal structures suffer.

They are on the front line of the effects of sea level rise. As they sink and the oceans rise, Venice's high water mark has risen 4" in 50 years. The problem all of us along the coasts have is timing: High tide and storm winds can mean severe conditions (Hurricane Sandy).

This weeks Aqua Alta was beyond typical 'dealing with it' conditions. Plus, a multi billion dollar flood gate system is not yet complete, and it's not known if it will even help.

The new problem for Venice may be timing. High water events along the low coast may rise. New thinking will be needed to keep them ahead of it.

I found this Youtube footage taken this week, on the Wooden Boat site.

 
Jan 11, 2014
11,401
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Flooding in Venice made the national news last night or this morning. It is a huge issue for Venice.

On this side of the pond, the problems of higher sea water levels, storms, and plain old bad timing were evident at the Annapolis Sailboat show this year. Rising sea level coupled with a spring tide, and a nor'easter moving up the coast drove water up the Chesapeake and didn't let it back out. It got ugly.

 
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Oct 22, 2014
21,088
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
They are on the front line of the effects of sea level rise.
YES the city of Venice was built in a swamp. To understand the flooding you need to understand the origins and the causes.
There was no solid bed rock upon which to build the greatest trading center. Just a marsh and lots of wood. So the residents gathered their wood and using their knowledge of boat building coated spars in pitch and sunk them into the marsh/sand. Stacked up closely together they provided a foundation upon which to build a building. If a spar sinks a bit, add another next to it. Build a building. If it leans a bit add another next to it. They will hold each other up - together. On and on it went while the traders ventured into the Med to sell/buy goods and ideas. Through the centuries Venice was a hot spot for innovative ideas.
Screen Shot 2019-11-14 at 2.36.28 PM.png

Situated at the NNW end of the Adriatic, Venice is a gateway into Central Europe. With the Lido providing buffer to the sea they constructed a gateway to Venice. In the past 15 years that gateway has been improved till it is a narrow inlet. Across the inlet they attempted to build massive water doors (The MOSE Project -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project ). The problem is not simply tidal sea rise for Venetians, it is the sirocco winds, blowing northwards. They blow across the Med and up the Adriatic Sea between the Eastern shore Greece, Albania, Montenegro, Croatia and the Western shore Italy. This wind driven tsunami raises the northern end of the Adriatic 2-3 feet. ( In the Adriatic Sea the southeast winds (Sirocco) raise the sea level, especially in the North Adriatic, where a long-lasting Sirocco and low air pressure can raise the water level up to 1 m. HHI )

The current conditions are perfect for flooding.
Screen Shot 2019-11-14 at 2.35.39 PM.png


The Sirocco are blowing out of the SSE straight up the Adriatic. The diurnal tides are hitting peaks. And to add to the fun fall/winter rain has been falling in the mountains.

It is no wonder the entrance to Saint Mark's Basilica is under water.
1573772959535.png


Good news is fewer places for the pigeons.

Of course the the high water puts a crimp in the outdoor plaza seating where on can listen to a variety of music and sip great Chianti.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,401
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
To be fair, the current basilica was started in 1063, roughly a thousand years ago. That was long before the industrial revolution and the use of fossil fuels.

It really makes the case for thinking about the long term consequences of what and where build and the unintended consequences of other actions, such as the burning of fossil fuels and increased CO2 levels.

The Sirocco winds are the same dynamics that flooded the Annapolis Boat Show, water goes up, can't drain out.