Here is something that may stir some debate...'no pfd'..

[25yearslater]

The 'study' asserted 70 million people enjoy boating every year. Of those the same 'study' claims 400 fatalities due to non use of a PFD. 90 percent on boats less than 20 feet. This is absurd. All we can say with certainty is 400 people died. Whether they would have died with or without a PFD wasn't even considered. Specious claims at best. This is a miniscule number that if the same could be said of seatbelts I wouldn't bother with them. I get to deal with this type of garbage daily with NEC, OSHA and other organizations foisting some manufacturer's product on the market with little if any real benefit. If I were concerned about something with higher probability of happening it would be some cosmic impact which is far more likely than falling off my boat.

 

[Kings Gambit]

So, the USCG requirement for lifejackets aboard recreational and commercial vessels, one for each person aboard, plus a throwable in the cockpit, was adopted due only to lobbying from the lifejacket manufacturer's industry? Would the same be true of the requirement for fire extinguishers? Certainly, a lot of those are sold every year, and having an expiration date-- we must keep buying them. That would certainly seem to qualify as a "racket." I suppose sales of vessel fire suppression systems that are never used is also a racket. What about the requirement for watertight bulkheads in some vessels that will never flood. Those are expensive too, etc. Of course, there are also the liferafts that inspected vessels must carry but that will never be deployed.

 

[25yearslater]

Yes KG it is a racket. If we trace most of these requirements back we see the lines converge at one historical event. The Titanic. By the way I worked with the guys from Walz and Krenzer at one of their locations in Rochester, NY some years ago so it was interesting to be able to learn how one event could influence the future of marine safety so dramatically. The facts of that were the incompetence of Edward John Smith who failed to order a reduction in speed while traversing an area of know icebergs. Turning the ship rather than slamming it with the bow to minimize damage, failing to immediately send a distress signal. Then we have the issue of substandard rivets being used in construction which allowed more plates to shear away. When we examine causal relationships the truth becomes much more interesting. Much as the Captain of the El Faro blew it by skirting a hurricane and leaving no way out, any lifesaving device is pretty much worthless if it gives a false sense of security. The evidence of the El Faro suggests the survival suits did nothing to keep the crew alive and the lifejackets aboard Titanic did nothing to minimize the fatalities. They did make body recovery easier but beyond that not much benefit. Based on the avaialable what if scenario we should all have 5000 pounds of chain attached to 1 ton anchors, huge sea anchors to ride out storms, every AIS, GPS, Radar, Shortwave radio, fire and ballast pumps, lifeboats etc. Never mind my boat is at the bottom due to overloading. It comes down to drawing a line of acceptable risk. The fact is most PFDs are worthless beyond the Type 1 monstrosity that I am sure no one is advocating. Those things are a sure fire way to dehydration on a hot summer day. For me, I am in assent with the author on using your head as to when to use any safety device. The best safety device is the one you never need. When the mandates pile up and the fun goes out of it I'll happily sell my boat and take up wing suit base jumping as an alternative.

 

[Kings Gambit]

... and the lifejackets aboard Titanic did nothing to minimize the fatalities. They did make body recovery easier but beyond that not much benefit.

Well, if everybody aboard theTitantic was wearing a lifejacket or had access to one, then the recognized need for having them aboard predated that disaster, whether by government mandate or by the good sense of the company that operated the vessel. Somebody knew it [that lifejackets should be aboard]--and on the "unsinkable" ship; what a conflict of logic. Regarding the life boats, if we had the rules then that we have now, everybody likely would have gotten off [who wanted off]. And how do we know that the LJs did not save someone [i.e., minimize the fatalities] who might have fallen [or jumped] into the water early, and then was pulled out by the crew of a ship's lifeboat b/c she/he did not sink out of sight, or have their muscles cramp up from the cold water so as not to be able to swim to a ship's boat, etc.? Are we absolutely sure that no victims in the water wearing lifejackets were pulled out and into the ship's lifeboats?

 

[25yearslater]

I always enjoy are exchanges KG. Always keep you thinking which is the essence of staying safe. Here is a little ditty right from the Personal Flotation Device Manufacturers Association in association with NMMA on just how effective PFDs really are. I would rather rely on my wits to stay safe. I am underwhelmed by the idea I will be safer if I wear one other than the type 1. As we can see from their own data the odds are against you.



USCG and State Law Enforcement agencies require and/or recommend different Types of lifejackets for different applications. Make sure you are aware of the requirements for your state before you select your lifejacket.

Most adults need an extra 7 to 12 pounds of buoyancy to keep their head above water. Below is a list of minimum buoyancy for each type of lifejacket.

• Type I22 lbs.
• Type II15.5 lbs.
• Type III15.5 lbs.
• Ring Buoy16.5 lbs.
• Boat Cushion18 lbs.
• Hybrid inflatable22/7.5 lbs.
• Special use device15.5 to 22 lbs.

Offshore Lifejacket (Type 1)

This lifejacket is designed for extended survival in rough, open water. It usually will turn an unconscious person face up and has over 22 pounds of buoyancy. This is the best lifejacket to keep you afloat in remote regions where rescue may be slow in coming.

Near Shore Buoyant Vest (Type II)

This "classic" lifejacket comes in several sizes for adults and children and is for calm inland water where there is chance of fast rescue. It is less bulky and less expensive than a Type I, and many will turn an unconscious person face-up in the water.

Flotation Aid (Type III)

These lifejackets are generally considered the most comfortable, with styles for different boating activities and sports. They are for use in calm water where there is good chance of fast rescue since they will generally not turn an unconscious person face-up. Flotation aids come in many sizes and styles.

Throwable Device (Type IV)

These are designed to be thrown to a person in the water. Throwable devices include boat cushions, ring buoys, and horseshoe buoys. They are not designed to be worn and must be supplemented by wearable lifejacket. It is important to keep these devices immediately available for emergencies, and they should not be used for small children, non-swimmers, or unconscious people.

Special Use Device (Type V)

Special use lifejackets include work vests, deck suits, and hybrids for restricted use. Hybrid vests contain some internal buoyancy and are inflatable to provide additional flotation.

Inflatable LifeJackets

Inflatable lifejackets rely on inflatable chambers that provide buoyancy when inflated. Uninflated, inflatable life jackets are less bulky than inherently buoyant life jackets. Inflatables come in a variety of U.S. Coast Guard-defined performance types. The specific type of life jacket is determined by characteristics such as its amount of buoyancy, its in-water performance and its type of inflation mechanism. To understand the details of a life jacket, read the life jacket label and owners manual, and consult your dealer or retailer if necessary.

All inflatables contain a backup oral inflation tube (which also serves as the deflation tube).



All Content ©2010 - Personal Flotation Device Manufacturers Asso

 

[woodster]

well there is one thing for sure if one goes overboard and drowns because they were not wearing a flotation device nobody will ever know if a pfd would have saved them and i for one really don't want to be the test pilot for that type of endeavor

 

[allen-deckard]

not to poke the bear but I believe the entire point of the life jacket and life raft situation has been totally missed by it seems most of you.

Yah your wits and balance and common sense is the most important obviously.

You wear the life jacket simply for the other reasons. I cant believe none of you have ever slipped and fallen on land. None not a one of you apparently have ever slipped and fallen. Well I have. And for that reason I know the same thing could happen on a boat and if I'm further out than I could swim I know without it I'm dead no if and or buts about it fall over and I'm dead. My boats on autopilot and it's gone over the horizon. Is a lifejacket the perfect solution? Nope. But it's an insurance policy. I have life insurance on myself to protect my wife. I hope I never need it but I have it just in case.

 

[Kings Gambit]

So, going further on this lengthy topic, I just finished reading a relatively new book (2013) by Tom Lochhaas titled Suddenly Overboard. It's a good read which addresses, with documented examples, situations and their outcomes as discussed in this thread and others of similar content with respect to PFDs and tethers.

https://www.amazon.com/Suddenly-Overboard-Stories-Sailors-Trouble/dp/0071803319

KG

 

[thinwater]

http://www.sailfeed.com/2015/11/me-culp-when-it-comes-to-pfds/

Guess the flood of hate mail was just too much.

That's funny. I love to know the politics.

What is also interesting is count the ratio of PFD/no PFD in the ads of a typical magazine. It is a very low number, particularly if exclude ads for PFDs or dinghies/beach cats.

 

[Kings Gambit]

According to Lochhass (Suddenly Overboard), 22% of adults wear PFDs consistently while sailing.

 

[markwbird]

If you are out sailing you are in a position to fall overboard. The water is cold where I sail so I always wear it. All it takes is stubbing your toe on a cleat and over you go. Nobody plans on falling overboard but won't you feel stupid when you are in the water and S.O.L.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Cold water is dangerous even with a PFD on. Lochhaas relates an incident where a father, two young sons, and his own father (4 persons) were sailing in a 4-m daysailer (not a Herreshoff 12.5 ft!) from North Wales to Puffin Island when a strong gust in building conditions caused the boat to round up hard. With everyone on the windward side the boat then rolled over too far, filled with water, and capsized. This was late afternoon. They had no way to call for help and they could not right the boat; although, everyone had on a PFD. Eventually, after a couple of hours or so, a boat passed near, found them, and called for help. One of the boys died from hypothermia, and the old man died from hypothemia/drowning. The UK incident report concluded that the craft (foreign built) lacked the stability requirements of the UK, the crew had insufficient expertise in that type of craft, they had on the wrong clothing for cold conditions, they did not check the weather forecast b/f departing, and had no accessible means of signalling or calling for assistance. Just one of those things would be enough to get into trouble!

 

[Chris & Lenore]

A different way to think about it.
I have read numerous reports of people who would still be alive if they had worn a PFD (usually warm water, not far off shore, eventually spotted, etc.). Not talking the middle of the Atlantic - talking about waters most of us sail on.
But I rarely hear of bodies being found were wearing a PFD. That "slow lingering death" seems to occur far less frequently than "drowning when you don't have to". Besides, if the water is that cold, you won't be conscious for more than a few minutes anyway.

For me, I put on my PFD when out of the cockpit in anything other than mild conditions. If I don't have crew at the wheel then I ask someone to come out in case I fall off. I often forget my own rules though...

CHris

 

[NotCook]

Seriously, it’s time we all started to think for ourselves again. What has happened to us? Why do we all just follow along like a bunch of sheep? It’s not just pfd’s, it’s everything. It’s time we recouped some of that independence we once had and started to believe in ourselves again and take responsibility for ourselves.

It is my firm belief that we are in this situation, of having personal safety requirements dictated to us in regulations and statutes for two reasons:

1. "Police", or other "law enforcement" agencies have been retitled or repurposed as Department of "Public Safety", changing the emphasis to "protecting" is from getting hurt (including hurting ourselves), rather than law enforcement for the sake of preventing us from hurting others. Their performance measurement has been perverted to counted how many fewer lives were lost on the waterways and highways. Likewise, our elected officials, who we really need to do a better job of holding accountable, are motivated by the appeal of "this law will save xx,000 lives", and the lobbying money and political contributions that come from insurance companies. IMHO

2. Legal tort has made it profitable for people to sue for anything (but mostly for the attorneys, bless their souls - they're just pursuing the compensation we deserve...). That, in turn, drives the cost of everything up, and inspires our dedicated election ed officials to further protect us from ourselves. Likewise, we really. We need to hold our elected officials accountable for the laws they pass, without regard to political correctness.

Just my opinion...

 

[Kings Gambit]

The decision to own a boat or not is ours. The decision to go out, or stay in the slip, is ours. The decision to wear a PDF or not is ours (among adults). The only thing the government is telling you to do in terms of equipment is to carry enough life jackets for everyone aboard, throwable flotation, the correct type and number of fire extinguishers, the correct number and type of flares, a navigation rules book, an oil placard, and a sound device. Anything else (except lighting)? If I put this stuff aboard does that make me sheep? The decision to have a dinghy, life raft, EPIRB, PLD, ditch bag, VHF-DSC, GPS, chartplotter, radar, AIS, or whatever, is ours. Some folks just really like to buy gadgets and other "safety gear." My neighbor has one, I need one too? Now maybe that is sheep-like behavior.

 

[justsomeguy]

Anything else?

No kids hanging their legs over the toerail?

 

[Chief RA]

As you get in your senior years it becomes more important to wear a PFD. Having said that; I usually do not use one on my boat. To stop what I am doing and get a PFD on just does not happen. On occasion when I do put one on I use an inflatable one. I do wear them much more if I am solo. In my waters you won't last long anyway. Dragging your dinghy on long tether may be your best bet in cold water as that engenders the opportunity to get back aboard. Chief

 

[Kings Gambit]

As you get in your senior years it becomes more important to wear a PFD. Chief

Is that because of "older but wiser?" Not older Budweiser? I don't follow--one can drown at any age. Why more important as a senior? Less agility, perhaps?

 

[Chief RA]

Yes, less agility, vision, hearing, physical condition, mental attitude, and more caution prompted by the prior factors. Chief

 

[Jacktar]

Look at this another way I go out solo most of the time. I text my in and out minimum to my sister mile away. She knows to put out an alert to Coast Guard if I don't check in. I am in the coast guard auxiliary and have done SAR for missing boaters solo, kids and otherwise. Its a very tiring, depressing thing to participate in and costs a hell of a lot of money and resources and risks lives. So I wear an inflatable that doesn't get in my way or stifle my enjoyment. If it get rough out I usually head back in or anchor, but may tether during the return. Just saying think of others not your manly or womanly ego alone.