Help me trouble shoot my engine!
- Thread starter weinie
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1. Because the cable stretches. It's like DEFAULT values in computer programs. They are there specifically FOR the ability to adjust them.
2. Because when you shift the setting of the low (idle), you may also CHOOSE to reset the high end. Sometimes you don't or ever need to do both. Sometimes you do only the high end. That's why there are two screws which may never ever have to be adjusted at the same time.
3. What "idle screw on the throttle?"
Anchor,
All I meant to say in the above post was that I don’t think that what these two adjustments correct would have fixed my problem.
The high speed bolt acts to limit the forward travel on one of the governor’s fork levers and hence limit the top speed. However, because I was able to increase the maximum throttle to the specified 3200 rpms by backing off the screw on the throttle lever instead, that tells me that the governor fork was not making any contact with the high speed bolt in the first place. Therefore, adjusting the high speed bolt would have no effect.
Now, the idle speed adjustment would definitely help to put some forward pressure on the control rack from the rear. As you have said, this might in fact help somewhat with the stalling at idle speed. After doing some further investigation, the stalling seems to occur when I throw the boat into gear. The rpms apparently drop by about 200 before it stalls out. Keeping the idle screw on the throttle body set high (above 1000 rpms) seems to be a quick fix. So, it seems that when I add a load to the system by putting the boat in gear, the governor sleeve is putting force on the fork lever that is not being counteracted either by the idle speed adjustment spring OR the main governor spring itself as is supposed to happen.
What would account for both these problems? Well, if the main governor spring has lost its “springiness”, then the throttle lever would have a hard time pulling the control rack all the way forward AND there also would not be enough tension to counter the force of the governor sleeve.
Yesterday, I did some exploratory surgery and removed the injection pump and throttle controller. Unfortunately, I did not have good enough access through the “window” in the aft cabin to remove the stop lever plate on the side of the engine, which would give me the ability to get a better view of the governor spring and the fork levers. I have to decide now whether to learn to live with the situation or cut a larger access window in the aft cabin so that I can replace the governor (and perhaps the other) springs and play with the fork levers to see if they are binding up. From what I could see of them, there was a decent amount of rust built up on them. For what’s it’s worth, the control rack on the injection pump did look like it was binding up on the high speed end. Cleaning some gunk off of it hopefully helped matters a bit.
If you feel the need to still bang your head against the wall now, come on by this way and I’ll buy you a couple of drinks in appreciation of your help!
All I meant to say in the above post was that I don’t think that what these two adjustments correct would have fixed my problem.
The high speed bolt acts to limit the forward travel on one of the governor’s fork levers and hence limit the top speed. However, because I was able to increase the maximum throttle to the specified 3200 rpms by backing off the screw on the throttle lever instead, that tells me that the governor fork was not making any contact with the high speed bolt in the first place. Therefore, adjusting the high speed bolt would have no effect.
Now, the idle speed adjustment would definitely help to put some forward pressure on the control rack from the rear. As you have said, this might in fact help somewhat with the stalling at idle speed. After doing some further investigation, the stalling seems to occur when I throw the boat into gear. The rpms apparently drop by about 200 before it stalls out. Keeping the idle screw on the throttle body set high (above 1000 rpms) seems to be a quick fix. So, it seems that when I add a load to the system by putting the boat in gear, the governor sleeve is putting force on the fork lever that is not being counteracted either by the idle speed adjustment spring OR the main governor spring itself as is supposed to happen.
What would account for both these problems? Well, if the main governor spring has lost its “springiness”, then the throttle lever would have a hard time pulling the control rack all the way forward AND there also would not be enough tension to counter the force of the governor sleeve.
Yesterday, I did some exploratory surgery and removed the injection pump and throttle controller. Unfortunately, I did not have good enough access through the “window” in the aft cabin to remove the stop lever plate on the side of the engine, which would give me the ability to get a better view of the governor spring and the fork levers. I have to decide now whether to learn to live with the situation or cut a larger access window in the aft cabin so that I can replace the governor (and perhaps the other) springs and play with the fork levers to see if they are binding up. From what I could see of them, there was a decent amount of rust built up on them. For what’s it’s worth, the control rack on the injection pump did look like it was binding up on the high speed end. Cleaning some gunk off of it hopefully helped matters a bit.
If you feel the need to still bang your head against the wall now, come on by this way and I’ll buy you a couple of drinks in appreciation of your help!
weinie, I don't understand your discussion of the governor and the low idle speed at all. If your low idle is too low, adjust the darned screw. Done.
I would caution (CAUTION!) you make sure you have good access to the innards of the stop lever assembly on the starboard side of your engine. A friend had his M25 on a dolly in his garage (!) when he worked on it -- he had EXTREMELY good access, and STILL had trouble getting the spring inside to attach. I am one of those on this thread who believe you are completely overdoing it, although i guess you're learning a lot.
...I have to decide now whether to learn to live with the situation...
Adjust the screw.
anchorclanker: Go to "Go Advanced" to access the emoticons, then click on More
I would caution (CAUTION!) you make sure you have good access to the innards of the stop lever assembly on the starboard side of your engine. A friend had his M25 on a dolly in his garage (!) when he worked on it -- he had EXTREMELY good access, and STILL had trouble getting the spring inside to attach. I am one of those on this thread who believe you are completely overdoing it, although i guess you're learning a lot.
...I have to decide now whether to learn to live with the situation...
Adjust the screw.
anchorclanker: Go to "Go Advanced" to access the emoticons, then click on More
:bang: For anchor... allow me!
Stu,
I DO have my idle speed up... it's just above 1000rpms which, from what I have heard, is a bit high and puts stress on the transmission when shifting into gear. The boat may last another twenty something years the way it is, but if I could get it idling where it is supposed to be, I suppose I would feel a little better.
Originally, my concern was that the stalling at idle and the lack of high end power was a symptom of larger problems.
I've also set up maximum speed limiting screw so that my engine does go to the maximum rpms as stated in the manuals. My concern, was that, from what I read, that doing this is a last resort, voids the manufacturer's warranty (no problem here), and simply covers up what may be a bigger problem such as bad compression.
But going through all this, it seems that by process of elimination, the problem is not caused by anything too serious and that I could definitely live with it the way I have it set now though it would be fantastic to get it running like it came from the factory given how much time I spent with my hands and body contorted into various yoga-like poses playing with this thing!
Stu,
I DO have my idle speed up... it's just above 1000rpms which, from what I have heard, is a bit high and puts stress on the transmission when shifting into gear. The boat may last another twenty something years the way it is, but if I could get it idling where it is supposed to be, I suppose I would feel a little better.
Originally, my concern was that the stalling at idle and the lack of high end power was a symptom of larger problems.
I've also set up maximum speed limiting screw so that my engine does go to the maximum rpms as stated in the manuals. My concern, was that, from what I read, that doing this is a last resort, voids the manufacturer's warranty (no problem here), and simply covers up what may be a bigger problem such as bad compression.
But going through all this, it seems that by process of elimination, the problem is not caused by anything too serious and that I could definitely live with it the way I have it set now though it would be fantastic to get it running like it came from the factory given how much time I spent with my hands and body contorted into various yoga-like poses playing with this thing!
Well, I hope we got ac fixed on his emoticon access! :theman:
Over on Sailnet, we had a discussion with a skipper about idle speed. Maine Sail wrote this:
Originally Posted by Capt. Gary Randall
idle RPM should be 550 to 600 apparently you posted this right before I posted to you...lol
No it should not. That is HALF what the idle RPM on an M-25 should be.
The entire Universal M-25 line up, including the M-25, M-25XP and M-25-XPB are all 1000-1200 RPM for idle speed, per Westerbeke specifications.
__________________
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-Maine Sail / CS-36T
The Hurth transmission shop manual discusses this, as noted here:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7020.0.html
That's where your idle speed should be. My tach is calibrated and I run 1000 to 1200 in idle and have had no issues with my transmission in the 14 years we've owned thsi 226 year old boat.
Good luck, KISS.
Over on Sailnet, we had a discussion with a skipper about idle speed. Maine Sail wrote this:
Originally Posted by Capt. Gary Randall
idle RPM should be 550 to 600 apparently you posted this right before I posted to you...lol
No it should not. That is HALF what the idle RPM on an M-25 should be.
The entire Universal M-25 line up, including the M-25, M-25XP and M-25-XPB are all 1000-1200 RPM for idle speed, per Westerbeke specifications.
__________________
______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T
The Hurth transmission shop manual discusses this, as noted here:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7020.0.html
That's where your idle speed should be. My tach is calibrated and I run 1000 to 1200 in idle and have had no issues with my transmission in the 14 years we've owned thsi 226 year old boat.
Good luck, KISS.
What are you using for a tachometer? Engine speed checks and adjustments should be made with a quality handheld tach that is much more precise than the hokey panel mounted tach in your boat. Lacking that you can just strive to idle it so it sound and operates well. When shifting its best to push it into gear quickly rather than allowing it to slip or grind. Some, and I fall into this group, like to adjust idle speed in gear, attempting to get it it down as low an idle as possible without quitting. Actually slowing it down till it does quit, then bringing it back up a little while making sure it maintains good oil pressure and sounds okay. You still have throttle control to always run it faster, but the lower setting can allow better speed control for docking, etc..
Governor checks and adjustments are made with the throttle control compeltely disconnected. Only after the checks are accomplished would you reconnect the control, and then, only after you check the control for full range of motion.
Its a step by step process. While the injectors should be fine and would likely have zero effect, they should have been checked and balanced with each other. And your 100% sure on the valve clearance that you did it right with the correct feeler gauge? If youve removed the pump, you will need to recheck injection timing again when you put it back.
My frustration was in you asking WHY the governor needed checking. It does wear. Everything in the engine wears. Its a mechanical machine and everything wearsand wears at different rates, and is why virtually ALL industrial engine manufactures call for 500 hour major service (which you engine has likley never recieved in 30 years until now). It will continue to wear, and you will continue to recheck all those adjustments (or not), until some of its parts are too far worn to be adjusted and the engine begins to fail to operate at full efficiency. In most well made engines that are regularly maintained, the rings will begin to fail well before anything else, shown by increasing oil consumption and eventually smoking and excessive blowby. In poorly maintained engines and especially ones which lacked regular oil changes, the crank bearings will often fail first.
Governor checks and adjustments are made with the throttle control compeltely disconnected. Only after the checks are accomplished would you reconnect the control, and then, only after you check the control for full range of motion.
Its a step by step process. While the injectors should be fine and would likely have zero effect, they should have been checked and balanced with each other. And your 100% sure on the valve clearance that you did it right with the correct feeler gauge? If youve removed the pump, you will need to recheck injection timing again when you put it back.
My frustration was in you asking WHY the governor needed checking. It does wear. Everything in the engine wears. Its a mechanical machine and everything wearsand wears at different rates, and is why virtually ALL industrial engine manufactures call for 500 hour major service (which you engine has likley never recieved in 30 years until now). It will continue to wear, and you will continue to recheck all those adjustments (or not), until some of its parts are too far worn to be adjusted and the engine begins to fail to operate at full efficiency. In most well made engines that are regularly maintained, the rings will begin to fail well before anything else, shown by increasing oil consumption and eventually smoking and excessive blowby. In poorly maintained engines and especially ones which lacked regular oil changes, the crank bearings will often fail first.
Stu, that link is fantastic!Well, I hope we got ac fixed on his emoticon access! :theman:
Over on Sailnet, we had a discussion with a skipper about idle speed. Maine Sail wrote this:
Originally Posted by Capt. Gary Randall
idle RPM should be 550 to 600 apparently you posted this right before I posted to you...lol
No it should not. That is HALF what the idle RPM on an M-25 should be.
The entire Universal M-25 line up, including the M-25, M-25XP and M-25-XPB are all 1000-1200 RPM for idle speed, per Westerbeke specifications.
__________________
______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T
The Hurth transmission shop manual discusses this, as noted here:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7020.0.html
That's where your idle speed should be. My tach is calibrated and I run 1000 to 1200 in idle and have had no issues with my transmission in the 14 years we've owned thsi 226 year old boat.
Good luck, KISS.
On the next page of that thread, it appears that the OP, in order fix a leaking speed control cover, observed that there were TWO governor springs attached to the throttle lever with one sliding OVER the other. But one had been disconnected. Once BOTH springs were re-installed properly he instantly noticed his idle speed and WOT rpms where much much higher!
This jibes exactly with what I have been saying regarding my engine!
Because of the lack of access in my engine compartment, I could not easily look inside to see the governor spring(s). If I did indeed have two springs at one point, and one spring fell off, that could definitely be the cause of my problem! Though my printed service manual shows only one spring connected to the throttle lever, a later digital version on the torreson website does, in fact, show TWO!. Perhaps Universal originally used one spring and then went to two because the one spring was deficient and stretched too much over time?
Also, I hope MaineSail can chime in here regarding the idle speed specs specifically for this (m18) universal engine. For some reason, I was convinced that I had read somewhere online that the idle speed should be 800rpms. I've been searching all over but I cannot, now, for the life of me, find where I read that, or anything anywhere, that specifies exactly what the idle speed should be!
Thanks Stu!
A photosensor tach from harbor freight. I then used it to calibrate my dashboard tach which I recently replaced when it decided to go all haywire on me.
Yes, definitely had the right gauge. I made sure to retest the clearance after tightening down the nuts, though sometimes I had to re-adjust when the screw turned with the nut.
I dock single handed almost all the time and I really do appreciate being able to motor in very, very slow. Of course stalling out when you are inches from the dock and finding yourself scrambling to decide whether to try to restart the engine or to try to fend off an impending collision with a piling can be very challenging!
But just to summarize, by going through all this trouble, I now know that I seem to have a healthy engine which just may need a new governor spring (or two) if I can figure out how to get the stop lever panel off without cutting fiberglass walls to get access.
Thanks anchor.
One suggestion for motoring in is to keep the throttle in one position and drop in and out of forward gear. Playing BOTH a throttle a gear lever is not necessary and can be distracting.
weinie, glad to help. That's one reason I suggest that skippers, especially those with mechanical issues, look at more than one website. It takes me maybe 15 minutes to look here, our C34 site, and two or three others. If I find something interesting, or useful to someone elese, at least I can pass it on.
weinie, If you can't see, easily, into that stop lever gear "hole" once you get that cover off, consider making a small rectangular or square hole in your fiberglass and simply adding a door. If you place the door properly, you could use it to check your dipstick if it's on the same side.
Maine Sail got his idle speed information from the Universal manuals. Have you checked on www.marinedieseldirect.com?
good luck.
weinie, glad to help. That's one reason I suggest that skippers, especially those with mechanical issues, look at more than one website. It takes me maybe 15 minutes to look here, our C34 site, and two or three others. If I find something interesting, or useful to someone elese, at least I can pass it on.
weinie, If you can't see, easily, into that stop lever gear "hole" once you get that cover off, consider making a small rectangular or square hole in your fiberglass and simply adding a door. If you place the door properly, you could use it to check your dipstick if it's on the same side.
Maine Sail got his idle speed information from the Universal manuals. Have you checked on www.marinedieseldirect.com?
good luck.
UPDATE:
CONFIRMED!!!
Yesterday, I was able to remove the stop lever cover and VOILA!!! The smaller of the two governor springs was broken in two! (There are two springs... a smaller once actually goes inside a larger one. They are both attached at the same points at the governor fork lever and the speed control lever).
Ordered a new spring from torreson and hopefully I will be able to install it without dropping it into the abyss of the engine! I'll post a pic of the broken spring soon.
pics from the service and parts manual:
Broken spring is labeled #3:
Let's see:
Removed and inspected exhaust and elbow for blockage.
Removed and inspected intake manifold for blockage.
Replaced fuel injectors.
Did a compression test and got excellent results.
A few more oil changes with Marvel Mystery oil.
Adjusted valve clearances.
Checked fuel and lines. (Several filter changes. Removed screen at pickup in tank and added a racor fuel filter. Also ran fresh diesel directly from a gas can.)
Removed injection pump and checked rack to verify it slides ok and does not stick.
Checked fuel timing.
All for a lousy 10 cent spring (well, more like $15 with shipping):bang:
CONFIRMED!!!
Yesterday, I was able to remove the stop lever cover and VOILA!!! The smaller of the two governor springs was broken in two! (There are two springs... a smaller once actually goes inside a larger one. They are both attached at the same points at the governor fork lever and the speed control lever).
Ordered a new spring from torreson and hopefully I will be able to install it without dropping it into the abyss of the engine! I'll post a pic of the broken spring soon.
pics from the service and parts manual:
Broken spring is labeled #3:
Let's see:
Removed and inspected exhaust and elbow for blockage.
Removed and inspected intake manifold for blockage.
Replaced fuel injectors.
Did a compression test and got excellent results.
A few more oil changes with Marvel Mystery oil.
Adjusted valve clearances.
Checked fuel and lines. (Several filter changes. Removed screen at pickup in tank and added a racor fuel filter. Also ran fresh diesel directly from a gas can.)
Removed injection pump and checked rack to verify it slides ok and does not stick.
Checked fuel timing.
All for a lousy 10 cent spring (well, more like $15 with shipping):bang:
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hey anchor.....do you think rudy could recommend a good therapist for my o'day 31 ? it will probably need one when it finds out that the m18 oday put in it was an escapee from the catalina factory. i wonder where the set of oars it was supposed to come with went. hmmmm
The springs are not in series, they are inside each other. It is one way to provide redundancy in a critical system. Both springs are unlikely to break at the same time.
Well, I installed the new governor spring today. It was quite difficult to do... especially without proper access. First, I had to remove the larger spring to make sure it was in good condition and also to put a gasket under the speed control lever (though there was none installed originally).
Next, I tied a piece of fishing line to each spring with a simple half-hitch knot. I then connected one end of each spring to the speed control lever with the little spring inserted inside the larger one and used the line to pull the springs and help guide them to the governor lever. The line was also critical to prevent me from dropping the springs into the gear case of the engine. The real tough part was looping the ends of the spring into the hole on the governor lever one at a time, with one hand pulling the lines and the other using needle nose pliers to push the spring in, all the while holding a flashlight in my mouth. (Note to self: get one of those flashlight headbands). Once the springs where installed, I used a knife to cut the line at the knot and carefully pull the remaining line out while using the pliers to hold the springs in place. I also installed a new gasket under the stop lever cover where there was none.
Boat is still on the hard, so I will have to wait a few weeks to start it up, but I'm pretty confident this will solve the problem. That little spring adds a lot of tension to the system. I am definitely going to have to be quick to drop the idle speed at the engine after I first start it up.
Next, I tied a piece of fishing line to each spring with a simple half-hitch knot. I then connected one end of each spring to the speed control lever with the little spring inserted inside the larger one and used the line to pull the springs and help guide them to the governor lever. The line was also critical to prevent me from dropping the springs into the gear case of the engine. The real tough part was looping the ends of the spring into the hole on the governor lever one at a time, with one hand pulling the lines and the other using needle nose pliers to push the spring in, all the while holding a flashlight in my mouth. (Note to self: get one of those flashlight headbands). Once the springs where installed, I used a knife to cut the line at the knot and carefully pull the remaining line out while using the pliers to hold the springs in place. I also installed a new gasket under the stop lever cover where there was none.
Boat is still on the hard, so I will have to wait a few weeks to start it up, but I'm pretty confident this will solve the problem. That little spring adds a lot of tension to the system. I am definitely going to have to be quick to drop the idle speed at the engine after I first start it up.
I am glad you finally got it figured out, I really am. You may however, after messing with that spring, want to make some arrangement to be able pull the fuel line off really fast so as to kill the engine, should the engine take off and do a runaway on you. I would rather want to start it out on the water, in gear, where the engine couldnt possibly hurt itself, nor the boat be able to cause any mayhem at the slip.
Thanks anchor! I really do appreciate your input, and of course everyone else's, especially Stu's! I doubt I could have figured it out without bouncing ideas off this forum.
When I was doing the compression test, I pre-wired a switch to remotely turn the starter over. I will probably use the same switch to start the engine for the first time, as you suggested. This way, I can control the throttle and reduce the idle speed right at the source or if I can't control it, I can cover the air intake with the palm of my hand to kill it.
When I was doing the compression test, I pre-wired a switch to remotely turn the starter over. I will probably use the same switch to start the engine for the first time, as you suggested. This way, I can control the throttle and reduce the idle speed right at the source or if I can't control it, I can cover the air intake with the palm of my hand to kill it.
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