@reefsider; could you be so kind as to part with the dimensions of your keel cradle? I like the looks of it. Strong, moveable and room to work on the keel without the cradle being too much in the way.
Geoff
Geoff
Help!! Did I make a huge mistake?
- Thread starter reefsider
- Start date
Hi, sorry for the lack of updates, there hasn't been too much progress, the sanding has taken a lot of time. Here are some progress pictures. I have been using a pneumatic 12,000 rpm d/a sander with 36 grit and green 40 grit pro discs. It's taken a full week of sanding every day and it took a bit longer than that but I had a couple half days in there so it's an estimate that's probably low. Whatever was on there was like sanding rocks. Wish I knew what it was.
So the keel pocket is not easy to sand and I doubt I'll be able to get it down to gel coat. I'm not sure exactly what to do but I thought a layer of thinned epoxy to coat it before the interprotect might work.
Also there seems to be some bad filler work by one of the weldments I'm thinking I need to chip out what's there and redo it with epoxy and cabosil/microbaloons.
Here are some pics.
Also there seems to be some bad filler work by one of the weldments I'm thinking I need to chip out what's there and redo it with epoxy and cabosil/microbaloons.
Here are some pics.
Pecostx: I'll measure it and post the measurements. I built it to fit into my trailer just right. The keel and cradle are at the machine shop being drilled an sand blasted. I should have it back sometime next week.
I bought one of those from princess auto (Canada's version of Barbour freight). Worked ok for the flats but very hard to control and still didn't fit up inside the front of the pocket due to the handle. Also the replacement belts didn't fit properly and it was wearing through pretty fast. Returned it and got my money back. I can reach farther than that tool by hand but it's still only about halfway up.
Also if you look closely at the picture with the wear mark from the keel you can see just how thick that beige coating is.
Also if you look closely at the picture with the wear mark from the keel you can see just how thick that beige coating is.
Reefsider, excellent job...
O know it is a brutal pain but you picked the right tools for the job (DA sander w/ 36-40 grit). Be confident that you did it the right way and will never have to do it again and w/ Interprotect barrier coat you will never have any blister issues.
I wouldn't worry about the keel pocket so much. Whatever that old junk is (probably old barrier coat or primer) if it is that stuck on there it won't hinder adhesion of any new paint systems. I never found a good 'tool' solution for getting it out, I really did most of it by hand, but seriously don't worry about getting every bit and spot clean to white gelcoat.
For the various chips and nicks in the keel pocket, as well as any blemishes on the hull, you will want to using the red fairing filler powder in epoxy. Don't use colloidal silica in epoxy or straight epoxy. You will be amazed at how easy it knifes on and most importantly how easy it sands back smooth. This is an important step, don't skip it.
For the barrier coat, you'll need a full two gallons, don't cheap out. Two gallons will put 2 or 3 coats on the bottom, keel, and rudder. Don't use foam rollers, too thin of a coat... Use 1/4" nap for the right film thickness. Acetone is the best prep for cleaning, degreasing, and wiping off the rest of the sanding dust. A garden pump sprayer is good for this job.
O know it is a brutal pain but you picked the right tools for the job (DA sander w/ 36-40 grit). Be confident that you did it the right way and will never have to do it again and w/ Interprotect barrier coat you will never have any blister issues.
I wouldn't worry about the keel pocket so much. Whatever that old junk is (probably old barrier coat or primer) if it is that stuck on there it won't hinder adhesion of any new paint systems. I never found a good 'tool' solution for getting it out, I really did most of it by hand, but seriously don't worry about getting every bit and spot clean to white gelcoat.
For the various chips and nicks in the keel pocket, as well as any blemishes on the hull, you will want to using the red fairing filler powder in epoxy. Don't use colloidal silica in epoxy or straight epoxy. You will be amazed at how easy it knifes on and most importantly how easy it sands back smooth. This is an important step, don't skip it.
For the barrier coat, you'll need a full two gallons, don't cheap out. Two gallons will put 2 or 3 coats on the bottom, keel, and rudder. Don't use foam rollers, too thin of a coat... Use 1/4" nap for the right film thickness. Acetone is the best prep for cleaning, degreasing, and wiping off the rest of the sanding dust. A garden pump sprayer is good for this job.
Thanks very much guys, it's nice to hear positive feedback 
I already have 2 gallons and a pint of interprotect 2000E as well as the special 2316N thinner. 5mm rollers (1/4" approx), west system foam rollers, and a full set of Pyrex measuring cups.
I have a couple different types of microbaloons from my model boats. The Prather brand is red so I'll use that as it was designed for epoxy glass hulls. I have just coated the keel and will be shaping and fairing with west system mixed with microbaloons and maybe a little collidial silica in some spots. I'll probably fill any deep holes with a syringe and epoxy just so there isn't much air trapped in any of them.
I will also be chipping out old filler that is cracking by the weldments and going over that area well with the epoxy fairing compound I'll make. There are a few spots to take care of.
Does anyone have the file for the keel shape? I want to make a wood template.
Got the keel back yesterday but had trouble with paint so I ended up blasting it again in my driveway today and acetone washing before coating with interprotect 200E thinned 15% with 2316N as per the Interprotect instructions. Just finished a second coat now, time to call it a day. I talked to a lot of people and all the boat repair guys and supply shops recommended thinned 2000E as the first coat after blasting over west system.
I'll post pics tomorrow as well as dimentions for the keel cradle.
Thanks again
I already have 2 gallons and a pint of interprotect 2000E as well as the special 2316N thinner. 5mm rollers (1/4" approx), west system foam rollers, and a full set of Pyrex measuring cups.
I have a couple different types of microbaloons from my model boats. The Prather brand is red so I'll use that as it was designed for epoxy glass hulls. I have just coated the keel and will be shaping and fairing with west system mixed with microbaloons and maybe a little collidial silica in some spots. I'll probably fill any deep holes with a syringe and epoxy just so there isn't much air trapped in any of them.
I will also be chipping out old filler that is cracking by the weldments and going over that area well with the epoxy fairing compound I'll make. There are a few spots to take care of.
Does anyone have the file for the keel shape? I want to make a wood template.
Got the keel back yesterday but had trouble with paint so I ended up blasting it again in my driveway today and acetone washing before coating with interprotect 200E thinned 15% with 2316N as per the Interprotect instructions. Just finished a second coat now, time to call it a day. I talked to a lot of people and all the boat repair guys and supply shops recommended thinned 2000E as the first coat after blasting over west system.
I'll post pics tomorrow as well as dimentions for the keel cradle.
Thanks again
Got the keel back, they did a great job drilling out the hole for the bushing and welding the trailer part. They did a quick sand blast as well but didn't take it out of the cradle or anything and really didn't get at a lot of the crevices or even remove the old anode as I had asked. I have to say I'm still pretty happy with their work for the price I paid. I ended up blasting it again the next day with my small pressurized blaster filled with copper slag. Had to use walnut shells when I ran out of slag but got the job done. Coated it right away with 2 coats of interprotect 2000E thinned 15% with 2316N thinner (5.5 hours between coats). After that was fully dry I used System 3 T-88 mixed with colloidal silica in a syringe to fill the holes and major voids in the metal. I tried to get as many as I could but some places need more and I missed a hole or two. I haven't got pictures of the epoxy step yet.
Here are some pictures. The first one is the custom paint mixing tool I made out of an old bbq fork to use in my drill.
Here are some pictures. The first one is the custom paint mixing tool I made out of an old bbq fork to use in my drill.
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The cradle is approximately 36" wide and 54 or 55" long (I'll check to make sure this weekend). The base is made out of 2x8's with the front stacked with 3 and th back has one with a 6x6 on top. Has 4 roller wheels on it. The uprights were cut to fit under the boat with some room to spare. The rest was just cut to fit the rest of the cradle.
@reefsider , excellent work! Your keel is one of the best looking/best condition after sandblasting that we have seen on here. Usually I would recommend that right after blasting that you use a coat or 2 of un-thickened epoxy first to seal the keel followed by filling all the little holes and voids with thickened epoxy. Following that sand/fair smooth and finally apply the 2 coats of Interprotect. In your case its not an issue because your keel shape is in excellent condition so you have very few areas to fill. The epoxy will have no issues sticking to the Interprotect, just be cautious that when sanding the filler epoxy smooth that you don't burn through the barrier coat. If you do, just 'paint' over the area with resin and scuff/sand with 80 grit before you anti-foul paint.
Thanks for the figures and the pics. Plugging in numbers and such from everyones work and formulating a plan to do mine in the near future i hope.
I've taken a part time job helping a guy do some remodeling work to help fund my project so the work will have to be fit in where time permits and funds allow but at least there will be work getting done.
Thanks all
Geoff
I've taken a part time job helping a guy do some remodeling work to help fund my project so the work will have to be fit in where time permits and funds allow but at least there will be work getting done.
Thanks all
Geoff
Got the first coat of bottom paint applied, didn't paint the keel pocket or the very back of the boat as I want to grind out gel cracks and fill as well as decide on the water line in the back.
I also started shaping the keel and repairing the stress cracks and damage to the rudder. For now just filling the pits and low spots. Started by using a syringe with system 3 T-88 and 406 then moved on to the main part of the keel with west system gflex (thickened epoxy) and then to west system and 406 mixed together. I had a friend who is a boat repair guy helping me and he mixed this, I wanted to add low density filler but he said this would be better.
I also started shaping the keel and repairing the stress cracks and damage to the rudder. For now just filling the pits and low spots. Started by using a syringe with system 3 T-88 and 406 then moved on to the main part of the keel with west system gflex (thickened epoxy) and then to west system and 406 mixed together. I had a friend who is a boat repair guy helping me and he mixed this, I wanted to add low density filler but he said this would be better.
"Face Palm"... Your 'friend' just made a bunch of extra work for you on the keel. The 406 filler is correct to fill the holes and any gouges, but not to spread all over the keel. You were fine starting out with a syringe and 406 filler, but the most efficient way is just a plastic spatula. the 406 when cured in epoxy is much more difficult to sand, especially when long boarding. Now that you have the entire surface covered in it, make him come over and sand it fair. The low density filler is what you want to spread over the entire surface in a skim coat (only after the holes and gouges are filled and sanded). You should have also filled the gouge from keel lock down bolt with the 406. His logic was probably that low density filler can still absorb water (although I have never seen it myself) which is why you paint on the Interprotect last after filling and fairing is complete. Its probably worth it to order one more quart of Interprotect to give the keel a final coat after this is done, and you should have enough to paint the rudder below the water line once repairs are done.
Yea I was I little irritated about the coating of 406. However this was the first coat after the interprotect so it was filling gouges and holes but they were already coated with thinned interprotect and injected with epoxy and 406. I'm also thinking about shaping the keel with a template so I'll use the 407 (low-density) to do that. I'm sure it would have been faster to only do the gouges and holes but he said he didn't want to break through the interprotect when sanding and it wouldn't take that long with the tools I have.
I wasn't sure whether that gouge was supposed to be there or not so I left it but I will certainly fill it now.
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But it might give me time in the spring to properly shape the keel with a foil or is this a waste of time?
Even in spring I have a time crunch because the place I'm working out of I will be losing.
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I have more than enough interprotect. I bought a one gallon kit and 5 quarts. I used one quart on the first coat of the boat. I'll use one more for each coat as more than that seemed to be too much. I have a half can left for the keel finishing which was almost enough for two full coats when I added 15% reducer so I'lol have the rudder ready so if I think there isn't enough for a proper second coat I'll do the rudder. I'm using a 5mm (approx 1/4") nap roller recommended by the guy that sold me the paint. He didn't want to sell me 2 gallons because he said it was too much paint. We are in fresh water here but I want to have it fully protected so I don't mind adding more coats if I have time. Mixing and measuring from the gallon might be difficult but I've done it before.
I'm thinking 2 gallons might be too much but maybe once I do the rudder, keel and keel pocket it will seem right.
The keel pocket also needs some glass work where the keel rests in the trunk when down and some patching where one of the weldments are. This may take some time and a lot of effort to reach.
I wasn't sure whether that gouge was supposed to be there or not so I left it but I will certainly fill it now.
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But it might give me time in the spring to properly shape the keel with a foil or is this a waste of time?
Even in spring I have a time crunch because the place I'm working out of I will be losing.
********
I have more than enough interprotect. I bought a one gallon kit and 5 quarts. I used one quart on the first coat of the boat. I'll use one more for each coat as more than that seemed to be too much. I have a half can left for the keel finishing which was almost enough for two full coats when I added 15% reducer so I'lol have the rudder ready so if I think there isn't enough for a proper second coat I'll do the rudder. I'm using a 5mm (approx 1/4") nap roller recommended by the guy that sold me the paint. He didn't want to sell me 2 gallons because he said it was too much paint. We are in fresh water here but I want to have it fully protected so I don't mind adding more coats if I have time. Mixing and measuring from the gallon might be difficult but I've done it before.
I'm thinking 2 gallons might be too much but maybe once I do the rudder, keel and keel pocket it will seem right.
The keel pocket also needs some glass work where the keel rests in the trunk when down and some patching where one of the weldments are. This may take some time and a lot of effort to reach.
I'm wondering if that area in the keel pocket is where the heel may have slammed down in the keel pocket, like if the keel cable snapped or there was a grounding... Anyway, I would just either epoxy laminate a few layers of fiberglass tape on that, or you might even get away with just filling it with thickened epoxy. In that case I would use the 406 over the light fairing filler. It will be a pain in the butt to sand smooth, but it will be strong. Fiberglass tape is a better idea, but that keel pocket is narrow it will be hard to get up in there... probably cheap paint brushes with the longest handles or chip rushes taped to a dowel. It will be messy.
Those chips and holes around the weldment, don't even worry about those. That's just slight voids in the laminate and gelcoat, very common. Just fill those with a little light fairing filler made from leftover resin while you fix the pocket. Be as smooth as possible on the application so you have little sanding work to do.
When you go to paint the pocket with Interprotect and then bottom paint, you do not have to paint all the way up in the pocket to the round top. Just use a foam roller on one of those narrow rod rollers and you can get almost all the way to the top, and the rounded end of the roller will get the sides. water does no splash up in the keel pocket that high.
I really wouldn't worry about building up the foil shape with filler, it just does that have much effect on speed. The C22 isn't a really fast boat, the hydrodynamics just aren't that critical. There is a pretty good shape to the foil of the keel as it is. Just get a light fairing done going along with the shape you have and get her sealed up with another quart of Interprotect.
Those chips and holes around the weldment, don't even worry about those. That's just slight voids in the laminate and gelcoat, very common. Just fill those with a little light fairing filler made from leftover resin while you fix the pocket. Be as smooth as possible on the application so you have little sanding work to do.
When you go to paint the pocket with Interprotect and then bottom paint, you do not have to paint all the way up in the pocket to the round top. Just use a foam roller on one of those narrow rod rollers and you can get almost all the way to the top, and the rounded end of the roller will get the sides. water does no splash up in the keel pocket that high.
I really wouldn't worry about building up the foil shape with filler, it just does that have much effect on speed. The C22 isn't a really fast boat, the hydrodynamics just aren't that critical. There is a pretty good shape to the foil of the keel as it is. Just get a light fairing done going along with the shape you have and get her sealed up with another quart of Interprotect.
It's possible for sure as the cable was snapped. I'm thinking it's probably due to the keel being so loose on the pin causing the keel to rub and wear the spot it rests in the trunk. The cable being broken probably didn't help, causing even more play in that spot. In the pic you can see some horizontal marks and gouges that imo looks like its from something rotating a bit in that spot.
The lady I got it from said she launched it once and the cable snapped on launch. After that she used the boat for the year without sails and pulled it out and let it sit for a very long time because she couldn't figure out how to fix the lifting system and didn't want to pay anyone else to do it.
Either way I think I'll try to lay glass in there. I may coat the edge of the keel with some too but we'll see. I got a telescoping roller the extends to 36" and has a 4" foam roller on it with a rounded end. Hopefully that will be useful for glasswork and paint in the pocket.
Thanks for the advice on finishing the keel, if I have time I may try to shape it for better pointing and tracking but really I just want it to be solid and seaworthy. This is my first sailboat after all and I wouldn't know the difference anyways lol.
I hate to admit it, but I have a lot of experience trying to get my hand up in that pocket.... sounds like the beginning of a dirty joke right? When I had to do the bottom job (see my resto thread, the hull was inverted) I had to sand out the caked in rust chunks from the inside of the pocket. Most of it came out with a stiff and sharp scraper blade, but the rest hand to be sanded and it was time consuming and frustrating... but slow and steady wins the race. Its not hard to get your hand in there and you can get about half way up the keel pocket. What stops you from getting to the top is your forearm getting jammed in the bottom. If you have a youngster or a spouse with slender arms you may want to enlist their help. I found that using 2 or 3 sanding discs for my orbital sander stacked together is easy to hold on to and works the contour or the pocket. If you wrap the disc around the side of your palm you can get that grove in kind of a vertical karate chop, LOL.