Headsail alone vs. Main
- Thread starter YVRguy
- Start date
LOL That's funny. Note I DID spend 10 minutes tying to find the topic that I thought someone was just wrong. Seems it was in another tab in the browser, on another forum.
Hadn't had much time to check back this weekend, I was down in Texas coaching a race team. We had a great week. After years of them being DFL ever race (and this on a very quick boat), we now got them on the podium regularity. Sail fast!
OK, gunni, I knew you'd need a picture.
scoll downhttp://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6783.msg46861.html#msg46861
I mentioned his ability to steer in the text to show he was good ast it, NOT that he was doing it at the time. Jib completely backwinded.
You're right about the genoas being impossible to heave to with. Been, as you know, discussed here often when new skippers can't figure it out.
Main alone is fore reaching not hove to, IIRC.
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Oh no you don't. You ain't gettin' off that easy matey! You get right back on that boat and wait for the winds.
Glad you dodged that bullet.
The Garbage Man's motto is "Satisfaction guaranteed or double your garbage back!"Do we get our money back?
I'm with Stu ... not buying this either, yet.
I'm in the middle of reading "Singlehanded Sailing" by Andrew Evans (endorsed by Bruce Schwab, BTW) and just read through the section on heaving to. He sails an Olson 30, fin keel, spade rudder.
I don't recall him placing any emphasis on setting the main. It seems to me it can be completely luffed or down. How else are you reefing the main if it isn't luffed?
I'm going to re-read to make sure I understand correctly. If the jib is backwinded and the rudder locked hard over, how is the boat going to steer downwind? There seems to be no reason to have to adjust the main sail with any precision, other than to take all pressure off of it.
I heave to with the 110% without any difficulty or attention to the mainsail. I haven't done it with the 150%. Surprisingly (to me), the author says he heaves to just as well with his 155% genoa.
@Scott T-Bird, did you really mean to say
I don't think one can heave to downwind. I believe one must be between close hauled and beam reach. Is it possible to heave to while on a broad reach?
No, I meant that I don't think there is any danger that the boat is going to turn downwind without the mainsail to counter-balance the jib. With the rudder locked over, the boat should be balanced without need for the mainsail to be raised.
My assumption is that uncledom and gunni are saying that, without the main counter-balancing, the jib would push the bow downwind to the extent that heaving to is not possible.
I don't think the main is necessary to balance the boat in a heave-to position, but what do I know? I've never done it in winds over 25 k and big seas.
Regardless, if you are running with jib only and you need to heave-to, what is to prevent you from simply raising the main (to a reefed position) if you DO need to use it to balance the boat (in response to uncledom's statement)?
Well, I think I'll dispute my earlier post on my own . After reading a bit, I've come to the conclusion that the main sail is needed to keep the boat driving just enough forward to prevent the backed jib from driving the boat backwards instead of sideways. If only the jib was being used, the boat would not remain steady without constant attention to the helm and I think the jib would push the boat downwind in an uncontrolled manner depending on how the rudder is set.
I'll admit that I have only been in a heave-to position with the main raised. In the right position, it is neither luffing or powered, so it does appear rather slack. And the helm is rather neutral as well. It seems that I don't pay much attention once the position is set!
On my last sail of the season this past November, I really used a fore-reaching maneuver to change headsails in wind that was about 20 to 25 knots. Once I got the smaller sail up, I should have heaved-to and taken a breather before continuing (but I didn't - I was more concerned about the long slog upwind to get home). It would have been a good opportunity to check it out and relax!
. After reading a bit, I've come to the conclusion that the main sail is needed to keep the boat driving just enough forward to prevent the backed jib from driving the boat backwards instead of sideways. If only the jib was being used, the boat would not remain steady without constant attention to the helm and I think the jib would push the boat downwind in an uncontrolled manner depending on how the rudder is set.I'll admit that I have only been in a heave-to position with the main raised. In the right position, it is neither luffing or powered, so it does appear rather slack. And the helm is rather neutral as well. It seems that I don't pay much attention once the position is set!
On my last sail of the season this past November, I really used a fore-reaching maneuver to change headsails in wind that was about 20 to 25 knots. Once I got the smaller sail up, I should have heaved-to and taken a breather before continuing (but I didn't - I was more concerned about the long slog upwind to get home). It would have been a good opportunity to check it out and relax!
See what I mean? Now people are arguing with themselves!Well, I think I'll dispute my earlier post on my own
I'll admit that I have only been in a heave-to position with the main raised. In the right position, it is neither luffing or powered, so it does appear rather slack. And the helm is rather neutral as well. It seems that I don't pay much attention once the position is set!
On my last sail of the season this past November, I really used a fore-reaching maneuver to change headsails in wind that was about 20 to 25 knots. Once I got the smaller sail up, I should have heaved-to and taken a breather before continuing (but I didn't - I was more concerned about the long slog upwind to get home). It would have been a good opportunity to check it out and relax!
You can't, in fact you are running downhill. There are A LOT of things you can't do downwind, ESPECIALLY if you only have a headsail up. The list of FUBAR begins when the engine you were relying upon to hold your course, or bring you back up the wind won't start...or in the case of some of these fancy race boats, doesn't have the stuff to power into a fresh breeze. Doesn't mean it's bad, just limited. And who wants to run up on a lee shore with limited options to claw back up wind, to heave-to and sort thing out, etc. You mainsail gives you plan B. Deciding that you really should have it up and double reefed at the 11th hour as the deck pitches and the crew has fatigued? Unseamanlike.
So, I think Gunni's point should be well taken. We started out with a question about single-handing in fairly high wind while on a broad reach. If the mainsail is down and you find you need it; it's going to be really tough to get that sucker up all by yourself in 25+ knots and 6-7 ft seas even if the diesel starts as expected when wanted. I don't see an "emergency hoist" here in time to do whatever one might think needs to be done. Conversely, the sail can be doused quickly in the same conditions w/ lazy jacks deployed, assuming it doesn't hang up hard, by a single-handed sailor even if he must bring the boat into irons under sail. So, IMHO, one has more options for dealing with the unforeseen or unforeseeable traveling under mainsail alone than under jib alone.
To heave to, the boat must move forward slightly, otherwise the rudder position will not hold the boat on course upwind, as well as motion for the keel foil to work. I think it has been stated that 80% of the force the main has to move the boat, is by virtue of the foil removing pressure from the leeward side. If the jib prevents air from circulating around the leeward side of the main, then there is dead air there, so the boat is not blown over as easy. To effectively heave to, both sails are required.
Haha fair enough. I can promise it won't be longOh no you don't. You ain't gettin' off that easy matey! You get right back on that boat and wait for the winds.
The great thing about this forum is these challenges can be worked through as an intellectual exercise in advance of the real thing. I normally do it the opposite way and then sit on my couch afterward wondering how I could have done it better.
Ok, I'll admit I've never hove to, but I've read about the maneuver and plan to give it a try next time out on a windy day. What I have been told and read, to heave to is to backwind the jib or the genoa to windward and lock the rudder hard over in the opposite direction. This action stops the boat and holds it in position once balanced. I had never heard about using the main as an essential part of the task. Can someone familar with the heave to maneuver describe it with a sloop rig in mind? Thanks, Jack
It doesn't hold the boat in position. You are still moving but at a very slow rate. As the wind hits the headsail, the boat will start to fall off. However, the rudder will prevent the boat from falling off too far. The action of the water moving past the rudder will correct the fall off and try and head the boat up. Then the backwinded sail will push against the head up movement and try to cause the boat to fall off again. The waddling action keeps the boat moving forward. When everything is balanced, one cannot really discern movement and it feels like the boat is actually standing still.
Probably did not describe it well, but I think you might have the general ideal of what is happening. Try it. You will really like it.
Probably did not describe it well, but I think you might have the general ideal of what is happening. Try it. You will really like it.
Good description Brian. The video posted above shows the sailor heaving two...and then he proceeds to drop his main without having a helmsman. This works in light winds. In hove to you want the proper amount of mainsail you would have up for the conditions, and most likely a much reduced jib/Genoa back winding. With practice you will find the exact right combo. What you end up with is typically much reduced roll and motion - something every skipper should have in their skill set.
In a classic hove-to (which I mostly do on a fractional rig dinghy), the loose main plays a central role - though I admit I've never tried it without a main.
The point of sail is almost exactly a beam reach, maybe a few degrees tighter. The boat's progress is almost exactly downwind = sideways, with barely a hint of forward travel. There is NO lift from the keel or centerboard, because headway is ~zero. The stalled keel or c/b is being pushed sideways. The tiller is down = alee, but traditionally NOT to steer the boat back upwind after it starts moving forward too far off the wind, because the main prevents that.
Here's the key dynamic equilibrium:
1) The action of the backed jib is roughly constant, pushing the front of the boat downwind.
2) The action of the main is variable, and creates the self-steering dynamic equilibrium: Whenever the jib "succeeds" in pushing the bow down, the boom hits the shroud. As the boat turns down, the luffing main fills more and more, starting at the leech. The effect of the main's leech filling is to push the stern down, rounding the boat back up. (If the boat picks up some headway, the rudder will do this too.)
As the boat rounds up, the main luffs and the boom leaves the shroud. Over and over and over.
Of course, different boats will find different ways to self-steer at near-zero speeds, but this one's the classic heave-to, IMO.
The point of sail is almost exactly a beam reach, maybe a few degrees tighter. The boat's progress is almost exactly downwind = sideways, with barely a hint of forward travel. There is NO lift from the keel or centerboard, because headway is ~zero. The stalled keel or c/b is being pushed sideways. The tiller is down = alee, but traditionally NOT to steer the boat back upwind after it starts moving forward too far off the wind, because the main prevents that.
Here's the key dynamic equilibrium:
1) The action of the backed jib is roughly constant, pushing the front of the boat downwind.
2) The action of the main is variable, and creates the self-steering dynamic equilibrium: Whenever the jib "succeeds" in pushing the bow down, the boom hits the shroud. As the boat turns down, the luffing main fills more and more, starting at the leech. The effect of the main's leech filling is to push the stern down, rounding the boat back up. (If the boat picks up some headway, the rudder will do this too.)
As the boat rounds up, the main luffs and the boom leaves the shroud. Over and over and over.
Of course, different boats will find different ways to self-steer at near-zero speeds, but this one's the classic heave-to, IMO.
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