H336 - Some questions about going mastless

[NugHunter]

We're getting there but electric hasn't quite matched an engine for some applications. MOST systems out there have limited range and power, but not all. I think they are excellent for day sailors that only go out in reasonable conditions. Sometimes you really need that extra torque to bash through waves. I don't know how far one would have to go between anchorages in the ICW and if that would add extra time to the trip for recharging. @dlochner would you be able to answer this question?

I understand its hard for some to think of using a sailboat without actually sailing and I think some are misconstruing my intentions based on the history of boats and what we use them for. With todays tech using a sailboat under electric power as a liveaboard cruiser is probably the most economical and peaceful way to travel with practically no cost after solar/batt installation. The boat can travel at sailboat speeds on auto-pilot without having to make adjustments. Interior cabin space is bigger then any comparable motorboat.Repair costs are a lot lower then other types of boats.
Soon they will be building electric boats exactly like this with slightly different shaped hulls...gone are the days of day cruising a 35 cabin cruiser with twin mercs guzzling gas like a fat kid at the fair.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

I understand its hard for some to think of using a sailboat without actually sailing and I think some are misconstruing my intentions based on the history of boats and what we use them for. With todays tech using a sailboat under electric power as a liveaboard cruiser is probably the most economical and peaceful way to travel with practically no cost after solar/batt installation. The boat can travel at sailboat speeds on auto-pilot without having to make adjustments. Interior cabin space is bigger then any comparable motorboat.Repair costs are a lot lower then other types of boats.
Soon they will be building electric boats exactly like this with slightly different shaped hulls...gone are the days of day cruising a 35 cabin cruiser with twin mercs guzzling gas like a fat kid at the fair.

When you eliminate the mast, rigging and sails, it cuts the maintenance costs down significantly. I do believe we are close but based on what I've read, we're not there yet, at least not for what most of us are willing to pay.

There's a boat cruising the world named Uma. The owners ditched their broken diesel and installed a forklift motor with a large FLA bank. After some time cruising, they calculated that they can motor at 2kts indefinitely.

 

[jssailem]

I am surprised nobody on here has mentioned installing one on their boat and kind of curious to why not.

Not true. We have many discussions about the practicality of electric motors.
as an example from 2022:

New Engine Design. What could it do for a boat?

1. I understand its hard for some to think of using a sailboat without actually sailing and
2. I think some are misconstruing my intentions based on the history of boats and what we use them for.

This is not the case.

To address your first premise, the use of a sailboat without sails. We are sailing because we wish to. It is an ancient form of "Green Power". Harnessing the wind to carry us to faraway places because paddling is too laborious. How you choose to use your "FREE" boat is totally up to you.

We have thought about the use of a sailboat; we have accumulated knowledge that you have been interacting with. This site allows you to freely tap into or ignore all/part of the data accumulated.

Why diesel rather than solar/electric? Diesel packs more energy into storage on a boat than electric batteries. You have a 4-hour capacity in your single battery. I carry a 350-hour capacity that will enable me to travel 2,100 nm at 6 knots. And if that gives out, I can use wind power to continue my passage.

As to your second statement:
Boats come in many forms. They are adapted by their owners to meet the desires and ingenuity of the owner. I can understand your focus on the sailboat body without the sail. If that provides you with the method to travel on the waters you are choosing to explore, then by all means, grab it and enjoy.

What has been shared here on SBO is that you are making compromises with your ideas. While you get a silent power source (similar to sailing) in a package that you can enjoy, your setup comes with limitations. You will be limited to either the speed of travel or where you can go with your setup. It will be less of a performer up in the northern waters, as half the year, there is not enough sun to enable full solar charging of batteries. As a liveaboard, battery power is a poor heat provider, especially when the temperatures drop into the 30s or 40s. In its original design, your boat could accommodate the owner in those conditions.

Enough of my rant.

 

[Davidasailor26]

4hr@ 5NM while using (1) 100AH Batt. That is why I am installing (3) 300ah Batts . The existing 100ah batt will be used to power the house and most everything else.
Your example about weather is the exact reason having a backup outboard is a must for me. I am surprised nobody on here has mentioned installing one on their boat and kind of curious to why not.

Consider how you’ll put that energy back in though. You said you’ll have 1000 watts of solar, so you can probably put 3000-4000 watt hours back per day. In your half day motoring you used 100 amp hours at 48 volts, which is 4800 watt hours - more than you can expect to recover in a day.

To your original question - I wouldn’t cut the keel and/or rudder down. Without consulting a naval architect you’ll have no way of knowing how much stability and steerage you’ll be losing, but it will be non-negligible. Plenty of boats in the 33 foot range do the type of trip you’re talking about without significant limitations from their draft.

 

[Richard19068]

... having a backup outboard is a must for me. I am surprised nobody on here has mentioned installing one on their boat and kind of curious to why not.

Maybe because this is a sailboat forum and most of us already have the redundancy of power and sail, one of which can be used as a backup for the other. For most of those traveling as you described, having an outboard hanging off the stern would be a third power source.

 

[NugHunter]

Maybe because this is a sailboat forum .. having an outboard hanging off the stern would be a third power source.

Maybe..but more then likely a member with a kicker motor mounted on his sail boat has yet to see this thread

Here is just one scenario :
If I sailed 15 miles away from the dock and planned on motoring home but then my motor goes kaput.Well, I would much rather count on a small outboard to get me home at the time I planned then hope there is a slight wind so I make it with the sails hours later then planned.

 

[NugHunter]

Not true. We have many discussions about the practicality of electric motors.
as an example from 2022:

New Engine Design. What could it do for a boat?

.

Why diesel rather than solar/electric?


....You will be limited to either the speed of travel or where you can go with your setup. It will be less of a performer up in the northern waters, as half the year, there is not enough sun to enable full solar charging of batteries. As a liveaboard, battery power is a poor heat provider, especially when the temperatures drop into the 30s or 40s.

Enough of my rant.

Not sure where all the assumptions are coming from ? I have nothing against sailing,diesels,electric or any one persons personal boat setup as most of us are crazy to own one to begin with lol.

I started this thread looking for advice on installing a kicker on a h336 and the best way to possibly trim the keel/ruder down. Neither are new ideas that I came up with. If you do some research you will find this out. I live in the south so cold temps are not an issue .That being said there are plenty of ways to heat a sailboat lol.

 

[NugHunter]

There's a boat cruising the world named Uma. The owners ditched their broken diesel and installed a forklift motor with a large FLA bank. After some time cruising, they calculated that they can motor at 2kts indefinitely.

Check this guy out , He built this full electric boat himself he is currently heading from Norway down to the Mediterranean. His next boat build is going to be really interesting


'[youtube]

 

[Davidasailor26]

Maybe..but more then likely a member with a kicker motor mounted on his sail boat has yet to see this thread

Here is just one scenario :
If I sailed 15 miles away from the dock and planned on motoring home but then my motor goes kaput.Well, I would much rather count on a small outboard to get me home at the time I planned then hope there is a slight wind so I make it with the sails hours later then planned.

There was a thread a little while back from someone asking about putting an outboard on a 32’ boat as a backup - Should I put a 9.9 HP outboard on my 32' Catalina?

The consensus, admittedly not embraced by the original poster, was that the effort would be better spent making the inboard engine reliable enough to not need the outboard. Your situation is a little different because of the electric inboard, but a lot of the complications there related to the outboard will apply.

 

[smokey73]

Back to the original question about hanging a kicker motor (gas or electric) on your 33 foot sailboat. I am neither for against removing the mast and using electric propulsion since I don't really know your motoring plans. I am not a fan of kicker motors off the back of bigger boats, but that is not the question since backup propuslion is what we are talking about. Those of us with sails have that, albiet dependent on having some wind. You won't havt that so: What I am only discussing is the energy source for the backup power, ie the kicker motor. If you use an electric motor that relies on the existing battery and electrical wiring installation you are relying on the exact same energy source for your backup.

You have to sit down and think about your sources of failure for the main propulsion system you have installed. Electric motors are pretty reliable if properly designed, cooled and maintained. So your likely failure source is the wiring or the batteries themselves. If you're in a Tesla, you coast to the side of the road and call a tow truck plus you don't have tide, current and waves potentially moving you where you don't want to go. In that case, you toss out the anchor when it is safe and effective to use, hope it holds, crack a adult beverage of your choice and call Towboat USA. If you can't use the anchor because it is too deep, you may be moved in directions you don't want to go or tossed about as you have no way to control your heading.

If you do not intend to be far from where there is emergency towing then maybe Towboat USA or some other towing insurance may be' your best and most cost effective "backup power" with their big engines. You will want this insurance anyway so the cost is already there. This even works if you"re going back to your marina and lose power. You would be foolish, with a new propulsion system to go without towing insurance and there is always the the possibility of grounding . There are three types of sailors, those that have run aground, those that will run aground, and D@m$ liars.

So back to the kicker, gas powered makes a lot more sense to this engineer.

 

[JBP-PA]

Maybe..but more then likely a member with a kicker motor mounted on his sail boat has yet to see this thread

Here is just one scenario :
If I sailed 15 miles away from the dock and planned on motoring home but then my motor goes kaput.Well, I would much rather count on a small outboard to get me home at the time I planned then hope there is a slight wind so I make it with the sails hours later then planned.

Another option is to get a dinghy, mount the outboard on the dinghy. In case your main propulsion dies, you can tow yourself or tie your dinghy alongside in a hip tow.
I'd get a dinghy, put the boat in the water and go boating now. You can always cut off the keel later. You can always add an outboard mount later. Try it for a while and then decide what changes you want.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Another option is to get a dinghy, mount the outboard on the dinghy. In case your main propulsion dies, you can tow yourself or tie your dinghy alongside in a hip tow.
I'd get a dinghy, put the boat in the water and go boating now. You can always cut off the keel later. You can always add an outboard mount later. Try it for a while and then decide what changes you want.

You won't have much time if you're in a crowded area and the wind or current is going the wrong direction. When my inboard died, the electric start on the outboard saved me from crashing a few times. Seconds count and that starter will get you going faster and more reliably than turning around to yank on a rope

 

[dlochner]

We're getting there but electric hasn't quite matched an engine for some applications. MOST systems out there have limited range and power, but not all. I think they are excellent for day sailors that only go out in reasonable conditions. Sometimes you really need that extra torque to bash through waves. I don't know how far one would have to go between anchorages in the ICW and if that would add extra time to the trip for recharging. @dlochner would you be able to answer this question?

Sorry for the late response, I was out of town and didn't bring my laptop.

When range and boat speed of an electric boat are plotted the result is a hockey stick graph, at low speeds the relationship is pretty flat then it curves sharply upward. It's been a couple of years since I used my electric outboard, so I can't remember the exact numbers, however, it was pretty dramatic. At 1 or 2 knots the range was around 15-20 (very slow) miles and at full speed (about 4-5 knots) the range was pretty short around 4-5 miles. Obviously, the outboards battery is much smaller than one used to power a larger sailboat, the relationship, power consumption increases exponentially with boat speed, is the same.

The distance between suitable and comfortable anchorages on the ICW varies widely depending on location. In some areas, like the Wacamaw River in SC there are anchorages every couple of miles. In other areas it could be 20 or 30 miles. The other factors to consider are tide currents and wind driven currents.

Battery capacity and charging ability will affect range. Figure average daily solar production to be 3 times the nominal capacity of the panels, especially in the late fall to early spring months. Between frequent bouts of cloudy and stormy weather and a low sun angle there will be more days below 3 times nominal than above. Summer months will see better production with a few days pushing 4 times nominal capacity, most days will be closer to 3 times than 4 times.

Developing some real time consumption and solar production data will be important to aid in the course planning. This is no different from obtain fuel burn rate for a diesel. A big difference is the energy in a gallon of diesel is pretty consistent, the amount of solar energy generated in a day is highly variable and unpredictable.

A small outboard can be used to move a 33' sailboat, however it will be slow going. If I were to do something like this, I'd have remote engine controls and would lock the motor in straight using the tiller and rudder to steer the boat. Some maneuvers will be exceptionally challenging, such as backing into a slip, negotiating a tight fairway, or fighting wind and current.

 

[JBP-PA]

You won't have much time if you're in a crowded area and the wind or current is going the wrong direction. When my inboard died, the electric start on the outboard saved me from crashing a few times. Seconds count and that starter will get you going faster and more reliably than turning around to yank on a rope

His scenario was running out of battery 15 miles from home.

 

[pgandw]

A couple of comments from a sailor with a 19ft sailboat with an electric outboard auxiliary (used to have gas outboard).

• using an electric motor, speed kills range much more than with a gas outboard. That said, it is much more pleasant to motor at 4kts with the electric than 5kts with the gas outboard. Slowing to 3.5kts gives me 15% more range (14nm) than at 4kts (12nm). Trying to go more than 4 kts is a waste of battery to drag a wake, and shrinks my range. Full throttle is 5.4 kts with a 1KW outboard, and limits my range to about 6nm.
• my Mariner, being a pure centerboard, will skid out in a turn under power if the board is all the way up. Also true of power boats, the bow will be pushed around by the wind without any keel. The rudder (and prop) loses some of its effectiveness without the aligning of water flow by a keel. Effective rudder design is based on normal speeds through the water, and water flow around the keel.
• removal of the mast will cause the sailboat's roll to be a lot snappier. Learned this on an ocean going tug that had the very heavy towing motors removed from the top deck. We were 3 sec from 45deg roll one way to 45 the other. Made most of us seasick when put into a rolling situation.

Bottom line: You will maximize the benefits of the electric motor if you limit yourself to "no wake" speeds.

Fred W
ODay Mariner 19 Sweet P