H336 - Some questions about going mastless

[NugHunter]

Hello and thanks in advance for the input and suggestions.

I am looking to demast a 96 H336 and use it for the ICW and lakes ,rivers,canals along the way under 100% solar electric power. I have already installed the electric motor and solar panels.

*My main question is once I take the mast down should i cut the keel and rudder down a bit too? I would rather not worry about getting hung up on the keel/ruder in low depths if their is no need for the deeper keel and rudder as this boat will NEVER be used as a sailboat again due to the solar and future mods. From what I have been told the boat will rock pretty good even in somewhat calm water if it's kept stock due to ration difference in the ballast weight from the mast removal.

Second question is about installing an outboard motor and jackplate for backup/secondary propulsion. Has anyone ever done this or seen this before on an h336 or similar model? IT seems possible to install a transom (see pic) by removing the 2 tiedowns circled in blue and bolting a homemade transom in place

* I got the boat dirt cheap and already pot committed, so I am not worried about : ruining a good sail boat, the resale, buying a cabin cruiser instead etc etc etc lol

 

[Project_Mayhem]

You'd be better off selling it and buying a motor boat. Yours will likely sell for at least 20k. A neutered sailboat will be a nightmare to control in crowded areas. An outboard will not work well on a boat of this size.

 

[NugHunter]

You'd be better off selling it and buying a motor boat. Yours will likely sell Than for at least 20k. A neutered sailboat will be a nightmare to control in crowded areas. An outboard will not work well on a boat of this size.

LOL...Thanks for the input but as I stated in the first post I am not worried about resale or buying a cabin cruiser or any other options.

What do you mean a nightmare to control? It will be under inboard electric power in all areas...with those areas being rivers ,canals and parts of the ICW .
The outboard would only be 15-25hp(stock is 27hp deisel) and used as mostly as back up and would not need to go more then rated hull speed. I already have the electric inboard in place and the mast is coming down no matter what.

so....
Would love for some feedback on the keel/rudder being trimmed down to help with stability ..has anyone done this that you know of or suggestions on how and how much of it to remove.
Also has Anyone or know of anyone who added a outboard kicker/backup to a H33 or similar Hunter model ?

 

[dlochner]

Don't cut the keel down, it will make the boat more likely to roll as it will remove a great deal of resistance from the surface area of the keel. The mast serves to dampen the motion, not eliminate it.

Stability begins with the hull shape. Rounded hulls and those with soft chines lack initial stability but gain stability as they heel over. Boxy hulls with hard chines are initially stable, however it a certain point the stability vanishes quickly. Without the weight and lateral resistance of the keel the boat will become very unstable if the keel is altered. The mast (without the sail up) will dampen the motion, rolling will be slower and a less extreme. Removing the mast will cause the rolling to be more extreme and rapid. You will learn this on the ICW when inconsiderate power boats pass you at speed.

So long as you pay attention to charts and tides, 6 foot draft can be carried on the ICW so there is no need to shorten the keel.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

An outboard will be underpowered, in the wrong position and will not be in the water low enough, even with a super extended version. I had an O'Day 25 with an inboard that was unreliable so I installed an outboard. The outboard was mounted too high so it exacerbated the issues I'm about to describe. Your transom looks like it would force an outboard to be mounted much higher than on my O'Day.

A typical outboard is mounted to the side or in back of the rudder. This makes for sloppy steering because the thrust continues to push the boat forward instead of having 50% or more of it directed by the rudder in the desired direction to assist steering. Sailboats don't like to turn to begin with so that doesn't help matters. Acceleration will be drastically affected as you can imagine. a 10-15hp motor is typical for a small dinghy weighing less than 1000 pounds. Your boat is at least 10-15k. The two big issues I see with this maneuverability in a timely fashion. Can you get enough speed to steer the boat before the wind pushes you or that big freighter crosses your path? The other big issue is stopping power. It's a guarantee that someone will cross your path or cut you off. You wont be able to stop very quickly with an outboard. It's underpowered and the prop won't generate much torque compared to a full sized three blade prop.
When the inboard was working on my O'Day it was great. Very fast, stopped on a dime, far less prop walk and easy to control.

I now have a Catalina 30 with an inboard and a 19' Motorboat with an outboard. The motorboat is much easier to dock. It's built from the ground up to run on motor alone where as the sailboat, motoring is second.

I've sailed and motored a few sailboats without it's daggerboard/centerboard/swing keel. The steering is very sloppy. It makes very wide turns, it slides and tries to go straight and overall it's difficult to make it go where you want, especially in tight spaces.

One time I forgot my rudder for my sailboat. We decided to motor around that day using the outboard for steering. It was so difficult to do that I swore I would never do it again unless I had no choice.

Using the right tool for the job will make a long journey pleasant instead of a challenge. It might even save you from an accident

 

[Project_Mayhem]

And you will need remote throttle and start controls for the outboard. Without it, you will be turning around, taking your eyes off of what's ahead to tend to the motor. I understand it's a backup but it will only do some good in some limited situations. You're better off spending that money on a diesel mechanic to make your inboard purr.

Overall, you will have a better experience with a motorboat. The amenities are far greater and more practical than what you're likely to find in a sailboat

 

[kloudie1]

I wouldn't worry about the keel/rudder. The surface area of the keel in the water will keep that boat from doing anything snappy in rolling.

 

[NugHunter]

An outboard will be underpowered, in the wrong position and will not be in the water low enough, even with a super extended version. I had an O'Day 25 with an inboard that was unreliable so I installed an outboard. The outboard was mounted too high so it exacerbated the issues I'm about to describe. Your transom looks like it would force an outboard to be mounted much higher than on my O'Day.

A typical outboard is mounted to the side or in back of the rudder. This makes for sloppy steering because the thrust continues to push the boat forward instead of having 50% or more of it directed by the rudder in the desired direction to assist steering. Sailboats don't like to turn to begin with so that doesn't help matters. Acceleration will be drastically affected as you can imagine. a 10-15hp motor is typical for a small dinghy weighing less than 1000 pounds. Your boat is at least 10-15k. T

****NOTE: I own this boat and I am not Buying a motorboat LOL !!!*******


I would be using a jackplate that would keep the 25 hp outboard (or equiv elec) with a longshaft out of the water while not being used and then would lower down into the water when needed. As far as steering ,my thoughts were to use remote controls and mount them outside the cabin hatch entry.Again this is just a backup emergencey kicker "made it back to the dock" option .The boat has a electirc inboard that will be its main form of propulsion


.

 

[jssailem]

Your max draft on a Hunter 336 is 4.5 feet. Are you thinking you will want to go in water that is less than 4.5ft deep?

Without the mast, you now have a boat with a lower center of gravity. Raising the center of gravity by shortening the keel (cutting off the weighted wings at the bottom of the keel) will make the boat less stable. Should you get caught in foul weather and big seas, stability is what keeps the boat right-side up. The hull is fat and rounded so that there is a tendency to roll. The keel acts against that roll force to keep the boat upright.

Removing the keel will cause the boat to wander rather than hold a true course.

You can engage in the adventure and just make the changes. After all, it is a free boat.
Alternatively, you might consult a nautical engineer and get a professional opinion as to the impact of the changes you are considering.

 

[NugHunter]

Your max draft on a Hunter 336 is 4.5 feet. Are you thinking you will want to go in water that is less than 4.5ft deep?

Without the mast, you now have a boat with a lower center of gravity. Raising the center of gravity by shortening the keel (cutting off the weighted wings at the bottom of the keel) will make the boat less stable. Should you get caught in foul weather and big seas, stability is what keeps the boat right-side up. The hull is fat and rounded so that there is a tendency to roll. The keel acts against that roll force to keep the boat upright.

Removing the keel will cause the boat to wander rather than hold a true course.

You can engage in the adventure and just make the changes. After all, it is a free boat.
Alternatively, you might consult a nautical engineer and get a professional opinion as to the impact of the changes you are considering.

Hey thanks for the input !!!
Yes ...In a perfect world I would be able to beach it lol. I did fail to mention if going through with the plan of shortening the keel/rudder, from what I have researched(apparently im not the first) there would need to be ballast weight added to the hull for the exact reasons you just mentioned.

You'd be better off selling it and buying a motor boat. Yours will likely sell for at least 20k. A neutered sailboat will be a nightmare to control in crowded areas. An outboard will not work well on a boat of this size.

This is a solar elec coastal cruiser sailboat that I can generate more battery power then I am using even when cruising(during sunny days) . I am also moving even when the winds not blowing or the sun is shining. A very spacious cabin with lots of storage and it will be a lot easier on the wallet when it comes to repairs ,parts and mechanics .

A comparable -20k motor boat of similar size and age 1997 33ft probably comes with 2 big gas guzzelers along with 2 outdrives that sit in the water along with all the other systems that cost a ton and will go wrong. It will have less space and storage with more weight and fuel consumption. The interior will probably be of less quality too...Then theres Deisel trawlers which are much more expensive if you want something that runs and is in decent shape .
If you know of any models feel free to let me know here and I will take a peek

 

[Rich Stidger]

Don't execute your plan. You won't be happy. It's a BAD plan. I know you dont want to hear this, but seriously, buy a power boat.

 

[heritage]

Why don't you take the boat out "as is" and spend a few days cruising on it. If you like the way it handles underway and at anchor in various weather conditions, then you can think about installing a backup, get home, outboard.

With your solar and large, I assume, 48v battery system, going with an electric outboard is what I would recommend. Easy to charge outboard with a dc to dc charger off the 48v battery. Remote control simplifies outboard operation on your large sailboat.

 

[jssailem]

going with an electric outboard

You might look at an ePropulsion Navy unit. They have the type of power you will need to move your boat. They are good on a pontoon boat. With the Battery stored power you indicate, an electric outboard would be better than a gas-powered system. No need to have the gasoline on board.

EFFICIENT LONG-RANGE OUTBOARD MOTORS

ePropulsion - Navy Series

Our Navy Series motors deliver a premium electric boating experience. Choose from a range of outboard motors designed for various types of vessels.

www.epropulsion.com

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Hey thanks for the input !!!
Yes ...In a perfect world I would be able to beach it lol. I did fail to mention if going through with the plan of shortening the keel/rudder, from what I have researched(apparently im not the first) there would need to be ballast weight added to the hull for the exact reasons you just mentioned.

You will need to add more weight since the ballast will be higher up. The higher up, the less effective it is. I have no idea what the add/remove ratio would be

Perhaps you've already done this but do you know what your longest distance run will be and what the currents typically look at? I'm guessing you already have a rough idea on runtime at a given speed for your electric setup

 

[NugHunter]

Don't execute your plan. You won't be happy. It's a BAD plan. I know you dont want to hear this, but seriously, buy a power boat.

kindly read post #10 then send me a link to this under $20k powerboat you speak of that is comparable to the year, size and comforts of a h336 ? A powerboat that wont cost +9k to pull out of the water fix outdrives and rebuild big block engines when they seize up or need complete overhauls.This powerboat must also consume less than a gallon of gas per running hour going 5nm.

Hopefully I like boats you suggest so I can scrap my entire plan

Why don't you take the boat out "as is" and spend a few days cruising on it. If you like the way it handles underway and at anchor in various weather conditions, then you can think about installing a backup, get home, outboard.

With your solar and large, I assume, 48v battery system, going with an electric outboard is what I would recommend. Easy to charge outboard with a dc to dc charger off the 48v battery. Remote control simplifies outboard operation on your large sailboat.

You might look at an ePropulsion Navy unit. They have the type of power you will need to move your boat. They are good on a pontoon boat. With the Battery stored power you indicate, an electric outboard would be better than a gas-powered system. No need to have the gasoline on board.

EFFICIENT LONG-RANGE OUTBOARD MOTORS

ePropulsion - Navy Series

Our Navy Series motors deliver a premium electric boating experience. Choose from a range of outboard motors designed for various types of vessels.

www.epropulsion.com

You will need to add more weight since the ballast will be higher up. The higher up, the less effective it is. I have no idea what the add/remove ratio would be

Perhaps you've already done this but do you know what your longest distance run will be and what the currents typically look at? I'm guessing you already have a rough idea on runtime at a given speed for your electric setup

I have seen the epro's in action and these types of motors really are the future in boating. The electric outboard for sure is the plan as it can hook up to the already existing setup for the elec inboard. Right now I can run about 4 hours on a 48v 100ah lifepo batt. I am in the process of installing 1000w of panels and will have (3) 300ah lifepo in the loop.

 

[jssailem]

At what speed level? Is the 10 battery also providing power to the boats house electrical systems?
One of the navigational challenges in cruising is to find safe places to stop. 4 hours may not be sufficient time to find a safe harbor when a storm is approaching.

 

[NugHunter]

At what speed level? Is the 10 battery also providing power to the boats house electrical systems?
One of the navigational challenges in cruising is to find safe places to stop. 4 hours may not be sufficient time to find a safe harbor when a storm is approaching.

4hr@ 5NM while using (1) 100AH Batt. That is why I am installing (3) 300ah Batts . The existing 100ah batt will be used to power the house and most everything else.
Your example about weather is the exact reason having a backup outboard is a must for me. I am surprised nobody on here has mentioned installing one on their boat and kind of curious to why not.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

We're getting there but electric hasn't quite matched an engine for some applications. MOST systems out there have limited range and power, but not all. I think they are excellent for day sailors that only go out in reasonable conditions. Sometimes you really need that extra torque to bash through waves. I don't know how far one would have to go between anchorages in the ICW and if that would add extra time to the trip for recharging. @dlochner would you be able to answer this question?

 

[smokey73]

The electric outboard for sure is the plan as it can hook up to the already existing setup for the elec inboard. Right now I can run about 4 hours on a 48v 100ah lifepo batt. I am in the process of installing 1000w of panels and will have (3) 300ah lifepo in the loop.

What is the failure mechanism you are trying to mitigate with the backup propulsion?

If you use an electric motor as a true "emergency backup" then you have tied your backup propulsion directly to the main propulsion and the common cause failure could jump up and bite you. With your set up, if the reason for failure of your main propulsion is battery depletion or battery failure, and you power your backup propulsion to that same battery source you are SOL. While carrying the gas around may be problemmatic and you'll have to deal with how to steer and get the motor deep enough, it will be a true "emergency backup" propulsion.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

4hr@ 5NM while using (1) 100AH Batt. That is why I am installing (3) 300ah Batts . The existing 100ah batt will be used to power everything else.
Your example about weather is the exact reason having a backup outboard is a must for me. I am surprised nobody on here has mentioned installing one on their boat and kind of curious to why not.

It has been discussed. Most people think an outboard hanging off the back of a medium or large boat to be an eye sore. Diesels are pretty reliable and will go 10-15k hours between overhauls. However, the real reason is that they don't work well in this application for the reasons I mentioned earlier. The closest analogy I can think of is an inboard is like driving on the road. An outboard will be like driving on wet grass or maybe snow (there's many different types of snow for those that aren't from northern climates).