Apologies if I sounded dismissive, this definitely was not my intention to do so. I was just trying to pass on some information as you seemed to have doubt my knowledge or ability. "Necessity is the mother of invention."
H260 Single line reefing
- Thread starter GBGraham
- Start date
There’s a mast at the gooseneck end of the boom. I know that sounds snide but basically that’s all there is. And I have to drop a fair amount of sail out of the mast gate to hook the grommet onto the hook. It’s a pain.
In that case I do feel as though that the tracked cheek block was used for something other than any single line reefing system or dual line for that matter. Unless someone knows different?
And I sympathise with you having to go to the mast head to reef. For me this is not acceptable.
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The previous owner bought a set of OMG expensive sails for racing. Mylar? I’m not sure the material but I don’t use them. He added several expensive items that don’t aren’t necessary on an H260. I’m glad to have them but wouldn’t have added them. Boys and their toys.
Kermit, are you trying to figure out if you can rig single line reefing so you don't have to visit the mast? Do you know if the PO actually set it up that way, or if it is like your prior 23, which I assume had a single line that only handled the aftmost reef points? How many reef points does the main have?
Well, I wasn’t trying to figure it out. But it’d be great if I could do that. The bigger pain than going to the mast is removing part of the sail from the track so the grommet will fit on the gooseneck.
The main has one reef point.
You have sail slugs? My 23 does and I can't see any way to avoid being at the mast so you can pull enough slugs out to get the cringle down to the rams horn. Seems to me true single line reefing wouldn't work with slugs, unless you only cinch down the luff as far as the stacked slugs will let it.
Not being in the position just as yet to be totally sure but the way I see it. At the moment I can't see the sail/track slugs being an issue. Put the boat into wind and I feel the slugs will shake themselves quite easily with the draw of the reefing line, especially if they and the track are kept clean and with the aid of a light spray of dry silicone.
On a single line or two line reef you do not have the hang the forward cringle to the rams horn, the sail would hang from the reefing line blocks which would be as DrJudy has shown very clearly on her post #23.
To all and @GBGraham
First I respect those asking questions just like GBGraham did and in no way am I upset with him. All of us try to provide information so the owner of his or her boat can make an intellectual decision. In fact there are no stupid questions because I already preceded everyone asking them anyway. I prefere those who have the intellect to ask which I respect out of safety. Therefore GBGRaham, ask away and always understand I am never upset.
Years ago when learning to sail, I learned a lot from an older gentleman who sailed the Mediterrian sailing circuit. He said anything can come up suddenly and you need to know how to reef as many wait till the last moment when in a sense it is too late. In addition, smaller displacement boats are more tender than the bigger counter parts paicularly if sailing solo. Therefore, when giving suggestions, I try to figure in all scenarios to include the worst situation as well. Sometimes, I also ask friends of mine in the industry their thoughts as well. Finally, it is good I know small boats but better yet when you know the specific boat in question like the Hunter 26 and 260 which I was involved with and sold so many. I also try to find out the condition of the boat and gear on board which I did here and the halyards to this 260 only has the rope clutch which allows you to raise the mainsail with no way to let it down unless you go to the clutch itself and release it by moving the handle, thus walking forward.
IN ADDITION AS Isaksp00 pointed out, the sail slugs in this mast have a retainer from coming out of the sail track just above where the opening is thus not allowing to lower the mainsail down all the way in the sail track. There is an easy solution. You can take a strip of alumuninum curved somewhat with one long side beveled and sanded smooth affixed to the opening of the sail track affixed by two or three screws that will allow the sail slids or slugs to drop all the way in the sail track; thus a sail stop would not be needed.
Many have good suggestions but one factor is water ballast and we need to remember that as the center of gravity in a sense is a little higher vs a fixed keel larger boat making this a little more tender. It has a centerboard that helps to prevent slippage or sideway movement in layman's terms. Therefore, that is not a keel with weighted ballast.
In order to reef GBGraham's boat, tying off the tiller via any means for example tiller tamer or a wheel brake if supplied with wheel steering can be dicey sailing solo in severe weather and that of course includes sudden changes in weather not anticipated.
His 260 has only the rope clutch meaning securing steerage on this boat, going forward to release the rope clutch to drop the sail. The sail stop which is a pin in this case has to be removed, to allow the sail to drop further in order to attach the sail horn being careful when raising back up to not to entangle the sail on that horn or curved hook from ripping.
Then you have to pull on the outhaul to tighten the reefed main before raising it up. Then of course walking back to the tiller or wheel. During this time I have seen many smaller boats broach the wind thus scarring the crap out of the sailor or sailors.
I have suggested a single line reef on the boom using gear when pointed into the wind that will work which it has. I have made a suggestion to eliminate the sail stop putting in a removable piece of aluminum so the sail slides will not come out thus allowing a quicker time to reef the sail in the horn of course being careful so it will not catch on the horn ripping the mainsail.
Finally, I suggested a quick style cam release some of which need to be elevated upward if fixed while the swivel does not require to enable the skipper with a flick of the wrist in the cockpit to release the main halyard, thus lowering the mainsail. Oh, on those fixed camcleats you can add a eye pad to the top to keep the rope from coming out. Did you catch any terminology wrong here? I should have said line. OOPS. 20,000 noodles coming my way
First I respect those asking questions just like GBGraham did and in no way am I upset with him. All of us try to provide information so the owner of his or her boat can make an intellectual decision. In fact there are no stupid questions because I already preceded everyone asking them anyway. I prefere those who have the intellect to ask which I respect out of safety. Therefore GBGRaham, ask away and always understand I am never upset.
Years ago when learning to sail, I learned a lot from an older gentleman who sailed the Mediterrian sailing circuit. He said anything can come up suddenly and you need to know how to reef as many wait till the last moment when in a sense it is too late. In addition, smaller displacement boats are more tender than the bigger counter parts paicularly if sailing solo. Therefore, when giving suggestions, I try to figure in all scenarios to include the worst situation as well. Sometimes, I also ask friends of mine in the industry their thoughts as well. Finally, it is good I know small boats but better yet when you know the specific boat in question like the Hunter 26 and 260 which I was involved with and sold so many. I also try to find out the condition of the boat and gear on board which I did here and the halyards to this 260 only has the rope clutch which allows you to raise the mainsail with no way to let it down unless you go to the clutch itself and release it by moving the handle, thus walking forward.
IN ADDITION AS Isaksp00 pointed out, the sail slugs in this mast have a retainer from coming out of the sail track just above where the opening is thus not allowing to lower the mainsail down all the way in the sail track. There is an easy solution. You can take a strip of alumuninum curved somewhat with one long side beveled and sanded smooth affixed to the opening of the sail track affixed by two or three screws that will allow the sail slids or slugs to drop all the way in the sail track; thus a sail stop would not be needed.
Many have good suggestions but one factor is water ballast and we need to remember that as the center of gravity in a sense is a little higher vs a fixed keel larger boat making this a little more tender. It has a centerboard that helps to prevent slippage or sideway movement in layman's terms. Therefore, that is not a keel with weighted ballast.
In order to reef GBGraham's boat, tying off the tiller via any means for example tiller tamer or a wheel brake if supplied with wheel steering can be dicey sailing solo in severe weather and that of course includes sudden changes in weather not anticipated.
His 260 has only the rope clutch meaning securing steerage on this boat, going forward to release the rope clutch to drop the sail. The sail stop which is a pin in this case has to be removed, to allow the sail to drop further in order to attach the sail horn being careful when raising back up to not to entangle the sail on that horn or curved hook from ripping.
Then you have to pull on the outhaul to tighten the reefed main before raising it up. Then of course walking back to the tiller or wheel. During this time I have seen many smaller boats broach the wind thus scarring the crap out of the sailor or sailors.
I have suggested a single line reef on the boom using gear when pointed into the wind that will work which it has. I have made a suggestion to eliminate the sail stop putting in a removable piece of aluminum so the sail slides will not come out thus allowing a quicker time to reef the sail in the horn of course being careful so it will not catch on the horn ripping the mainsail.
Finally, I suggested a quick style cam release some of which need to be elevated upward if fixed while the swivel does not require to enable the skipper with a flick of the wrist in the cockpit to release the main halyard, thus lowering the mainsail. Oh, on those fixed camcleats you can add a eye pad to the top to keep the rope from coming out. Did you catch any terminology wrong here? I should have said line. OOPS. 20,000 noodles coming my way
Thank you Dave for replying with your usual clarity, knowledge and experience, also very happy and pleased to hear that I can't upset you, same rule for me also. From the part of England (Yorkshire) where I was dragged up we have a natural ability to be very straight talkers and also known to sometimes shoot from the hip.
Yes places in the Med you can get storms that spring up, here in the Aegean Sea there is the summer Meltemi which is nearly a permanent gale of Bf 7-8 but not in the part where I sail, although it can get lively. This wasn't a problem for us with our last steed, 26t and 16.5m. but with the H260 I do need to reef as soon and as easily as possible for the obvious reasons already mentioned.
Last year was my first with the H260 and I had really great fun learning from that experience, so I am now on with doing some mods to make life easier for the up and coming season. One is the question of the tiller and while working the lines. I have so made it so the tiller extension get be fixed fwd so I should be able to more or less work and steady the tiller from between the my legs while I work the lines. Failing that I can always go back to the using of the Tillerpilot.
It's not necessary to remove any sail slugs from the mast track to reef, as long as the slug/slide above the reef cringle is high enough. You only have to get the bottom of the "slab" down far enough.
A careful sailmaker will ask you for measurements about the feeder slot and install the slugs/slides so you can get the reef grommet very close to the top of the boom. Since slugs and slides are usually spaced anywhere from 20 to 30" apart (+/- a few inches), it's not hard to accommodate a feeder slot and sail stop.
If you have a reef horn, put a "floppy ring" through the reef grommet. That's a ring on each side of the sail, connected by webbing or line. It's much easier to put the ring on the horn than to wrestle the grommet onto the horn.
If you're using a line rather than a hook for the fowrad reef line, do NOT put the line though the grommet, trapping the sail slides . Run it up one side of the sail to a ring or block at the reef, and back down on the SAME side.
See drawing below. (PS, I apologize for the crude drawing, I did it about 15 years ago with primitive software. It's ugly, but it gets my point across.)
Here's a drawing to show floppy rings. in Fig. 14. I don't remember where it's from so I can't give proper credit.
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You can heave to if you need to put in a reef. All you need before you heave to is a little sea room.
The three "R's" for why you heave to are:
Judy B
The three "R's" for why you heave to are:
- rest,
- repair
- reef.
Judy B
Judy
I respect you but we can agree to disagree. It will be up to the owner what he choose. I know the boat all too well
I respect you but we can agree to disagree. It will be up to the owner what he choose. I know the boat all too well
Here you go Kermit, this looks a lot like the way yours may have been set up. I came across this while looking for reefing line sizes per sq m of sail.
https://www.harken.com/uploadedfiles/Product_Support/PDF/4171.pdf
I don't think my sailmaker considered what Dr Judy noted about positioning the slugs. If the pin that keeps my slugs from falling out the slot when I lower the main is in, as it normally is, the reef cringle cannot reach anywhere near the horn, the way the slugs stack. I have to pull a few slugs out. I suppose if I wanted to reef from the cockpit I could remove that pin once the sail is raised, and if I had a line to pull the luff cringle down (like in the illustration above) it might just let the slugs pop out of the slot, or I could rig what Dave described above with an aluminum track (though I don't understand it, prob need a picture). My guess is that lacking that extra track, they may not pop out on their own. It may be that Kermit would have the same issue.
If I were to rig something like the Harken setup, I'd use cheek blocks on the cringles, run the lines all on one side of the main (not through the cringle) and I might consider using two separate lines. I already have one for the leech end cringle, which would have to be led aft and away from the jammer cleat on the boom, and I'd have to rig a new one for the luff cringle. Probably not worth it for lake sailing, as I can mostly lower the sail from the cockpit in an emergency and have a furling genoa.
If I were to rig something like the Harken setup, I'd use cheek blocks on the cringles, run the lines all on one side of the main (not through the cringle) and I might consider using two separate lines. I already have one for the leech end cringle, which would have to be led aft and away from the jammer cleat on the boom, and I'd have to rig a new one for the luff cringle. Probably not worth it for lake sailing, as I can mostly lower the sail from the cockpit in an emergency and have a furling genoa.
Some purist may disagree but I can't see you having a great problem. Your sail is fluid and if your cringle won't reach the rams horn just put a loose cunningham and cleat off the luff at it's lowest point and fly the sail from that point. Or run a line back to the cockpit.
Yes, sometimes a Cunningham can be used for the front of the reef.... and there’s a few important caveats.
If the Cunningham pulls the reef crinkle both down and forward towards the mast at approximately 45 degrees, that is a good setup for reefing. However, if the Cunningham hook pulls only down, but not forward, the luff there’s a good chance of damage to the mainsail. If the reef patch is allowed be to pull aft and away from the mast track, there will be a big strain at the slide just above the reef cringle and patch.
This strain will, sooner or later, cause a rip at the slide immediately above the reef. The mainsail is not built to handle that much strain at the slide.
Yes, it’s certainly true that the reef crngle can a significan height above the gooseneck.... again provided the luff is close the the mast at the reefing patch with no strain visible at the next slide up from the reef patch.
If the Cunningham pulls the reef crinkle both down and forward towards the mast at approximately 45 degrees, that is a good setup for reefing. However, if the Cunningham hook pulls only down, but not forward, the luff there’s a good chance of damage to the mainsail. If the reef patch is allowed be to pull aft and away from the mast track, there will be a big strain at the slide just above the reef cringle and patch.
This strain will, sooner or later, cause a rip at the slide immediately above the reef. The mainsail is not built to handle that much strain at the slide.
Yes, it’s certainly true that the reef crngle can a significan height above the gooseneck.... again provided the luff is close the the mast at the reefing patch with no strain visible at the next slide up from the reef patch.
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