My wife and I are in the process of purchasing a new 426DS and are tossing around the idea of buying it with a generator and a/c. We are on the hook most summer weekends but summers can be extremely hot and muggy in this area. Our salesman said that he would not suggest running a generator in a closed boat over night. He also told us that the carbon monoxide detector often goes off for no reason so that owners typically pull the wires on them. Can anyone tell me how you have handled this situation? Is it worth it to spend the extra money just to be able to run the a/c prior to bed time? Or do you run it all night? Thanks. Bruce.
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Safest Way is to use Shorepower
Running an air conditioner just prior to retiring for the night won't by you much as the cabin will warm up right away from the heat stored in the mass of the boat. Check the Coast Guard site and search for key words such as "generator" and "death" - you will get some hits. People have died from being OUTSIDE the boat with the generator running, if that tells you anything. Personally, if it were me, I'd feel much more comfortable (sleep better?) with the air conditioning running when I was hooked up to shore power. Maybe reserve a slip for those "too-hot-to-stand-it" kind of nights? Plan B: Stay up later until it finally cools down enough? (with a 426 you can make ice cubes and have a blender on board, right? - so what's the problem???)
Running an air conditioner just prior to retiring for the night won't by you much as the cabin will warm up right away from the heat stored in the mass of the boat. Check the Coast Guard site and search for key words such as "generator" and "death" - you will get some hits. People have died from being OUTSIDE the boat with the generator running, if that tells you anything. Personally, if it were me, I'd feel much more comfortable (sleep better?) with the air conditioning running when I was hooked up to shore power. Maybe reserve a slip for those "too-hot-to-stand-it" kind of nights? Plan B: Stay up later until it finally cools down enough? (with a 426 you can make ice cubes and have a blender on board, right? - so what's the problem???)
AC but no generator
We have a 2000 h410 that came with ac but no generator (We bought it new, it was the boat show demo boat). Probably never would have ordered the ac at all, but actually its great. Not sure of the pros and cons of a genset, suspect it might be a pain. But in fact, the key time one might need ac is when at a slip. Generally, at anchor there is some breeze, and with a few well placed fans and hatches, have rarely been uncomfortable. Slips are often hot, however, and it is wonderful when cruising to tie up and turn on and achieve 72 degrees in a few minutes. I will admit that we may pull in to slips a little faster than anchoring when it is real hot. Anyway, consider the option of ac without bothering with the generator. Just wanted to complicate your decision making further.... S/V Breathless
We have a 2000 h410 that came with ac but no generator (We bought it new, it was the boat show demo boat). Probably never would have ordered the ac at all, but actually its great. Not sure of the pros and cons of a genset, suspect it might be a pain. But in fact, the key time one might need ac is when at a slip. Generally, at anchor there is some breeze, and with a few well placed fans and hatches, have rarely been uncomfortable. Slips are often hot, however, and it is wonderful when cruising to tie up and turn on and achieve 72 degrees in a few minutes. I will admit that we may pull in to slips a little faster than anchoring when it is real hot. Anyway, consider the option of ac without bothering with the generator. Just wanted to complicate your decision making further.... S/V Breathless
GEN/AC ?
The Gensets are safe if permanently and correctly installed. It exhausts outside just like the thousands of RV's on the road. It must be properly maintained. The gas furnace in a house exhausts outside too while the unit is in the house. If properly maintained the Genset in your boat will be the same. Ours keeps us cool on the hook or at a transient dock just fine. Most of the problems I have heard about, including the USCG warnings, are for portable gensets without proper exhaust routing and for people being overcome while being towed on something floating directly behind the exhaust of a running engine. The genset is really great. Uses about .5 gallons of diesel per hour and you can keep the house batteries charged without running the main engine. I have a Northern Lights and it works fine. The Panda units are a little smaller and quieter. Keeping cool in Texas is really important.
The Gensets are safe if permanently and correctly installed. It exhausts outside just like the thousands of RV's on the road. It must be properly maintained. The gas furnace in a house exhausts outside too while the unit is in the house. If properly maintained the Genset in your boat will be the same. Ours keeps us cool on the hook or at a transient dock just fine. Most of the problems I have heard about, including the USCG warnings, are for portable gensets without proper exhaust routing and for people being overcome while being towed on something floating directly behind the exhaust of a running engine. The genset is really great. Uses about .5 gallons of diesel per hour and you can keep the house batteries charged without running the main engine. I have a Northern Lights and it works fine. The Panda units are a little smaller and quieter. Keeping cool in Texas is really important.
I've enjoyed the AC
I have actually been suprised on how much I've enjoyed the AC. We don't have a generator so this is strictly an at dock scenario. If there is any kind of breeze on the hook I think you would prefer the breeze to the noise of the generator and the AC. Your neighbors would prefer it as well
The 410 is setup for a generator to be installed. Since most of the infrastructure is in place to support the generator we decided to wait and see if we would actually need one. My concerns were: I wasn't sure I wanted the expense, weight and maintenance of another engine. The AC on the other hand seemed like it would be a little more involved to install after the fact. You may want to call around and get a feel for the cost of installing a generator after the fact .vs. the cost of the Hunter option. The outcome of that research may also sway your decision one way or the other. good luck, -wayne
I have actually been suprised on how much I've enjoyed the AC. We don't have a generator so this is strictly an at dock scenario. If there is any kind of breeze on the hook I think you would prefer the breeze to the noise of the generator and the AC. Your neighbors would prefer it as well
The 410 is setup for a generator to be installed. Since most of the infrastructure is in place to support the generator we decided to wait and see if we would actually need one. My concerns were: I wasn't sure I wanted the expense, weight and maintenance of another engine. The AC on the other hand seemed like it would be a little more involved to install after the fact. You may want to call around and get a feel for the cost of installing a generator after the fact .vs. the cost of the Hunter option. The outcome of that research may also sway your decision one way or the other. good luck, -wayneGas generators, not diesel, are dangerous
Gasoline engine exhaust has a very CO content, and therefore gas generators--whether permanently installed marine units OR portable--should NEVER be run overnight because heat/ac air exchange with the outside air can pull exhaust fumes into the boat. It's not just portable units that have killed people...gas marine gensets kill a number of people every year. However, CO emissions in diesel exhaust are very low and present little if any danger. Just don't try to combine a diesel genset with a gas engine or vice versa in an enclosed space...'cuz diesel engines aren't spark protected.
Gasoline engine exhaust has a very CO content, and therefore gas generators--whether permanently installed marine units OR portable--should NEVER be run overnight because heat/ac air exchange with the outside air can pull exhaust fumes into the boat. It's not just portable units that have killed people...gas marine gensets kill a number of people every year. However, CO emissions in diesel exhaust are very low and present little if any danger. Just don't try to combine a diesel genset with a gas engine or vice versa in an enclosed space...'cuz diesel engines aren't spark protected.
gensets at night
Bruce, I've found that in the conditions you discribe, that I can "chill" the boat to around 60-65 degrees before turning the genset and a/c off and it remains comfortable all night. with the boat closed up the humidity remains low all night and the temp is seldom above 75 in the AM.we get some real humid days and nights in New England although we can get a breeze thru the boat with the hatches open it can still be uncomfortable. Guess I'm just getting old and like my creature comforts. Bryce H410 S/V Spellbinder
Bruce, I've found that in the conditions you discribe, that I can "chill" the boat to around 60-65 degrees before turning the genset and a/c off and it remains comfortable all night. with the boat closed up the humidity remains low all night and the temp is seldom above 75 in the AM.we get some real humid days and nights in New England although we can get a breeze thru the boat with the hatches open it can still be uncomfortable. Guess I'm just getting old and like my creature comforts. Bryce H410 S/V Spellbinder
Definite
Bruce, You know that it is a natural tendency to advise others to do what you have done. I you can afford it, you will DEFINITELY enjoy having it. The deisel generators put out a small amount of carbon monoxide in comparison to gas. Most people that I know do it like Bryce. They use it right up to bedtime. In most places it cools off by late evening enough to be comfortable. I just completed installation of a Panda. As you know, it hasn't been warm enough here to test out the AC on the hook. We did use it to run the HEAT several weeks ago on the hook which was a welcome commodity. good luck, Mike D
Bruce, You know that it is a natural tendency to advise others to do what you have done. I you can afford it, you will DEFINITELY enjoy having it. The deisel generators put out a small amount of carbon monoxide in comparison to gas. Most people that I know do it like Bryce. They use it right up to bedtime. In most places it cools off by late evening enough to be comfortable. I just completed installation of a Panda. As you know, it hasn't been warm enough here to test out the AC on the hook. We did use it to run the HEAT several weeks ago on the hook which was a welcome commodity. good luck, Mike D
Generator....yesss,yesss
I'would never gave up my generator... I live in the D.R. tropics Caribbean and A/C is a necesity!!!! Beside I have the small batteries that come standard with the boat and with the gen running at night I can do whatever and they'll be charged by morning. One very important thing BE SHURE A MARINE CERTIFICATED ELECTRICIAN installs it with no cutting arround the corners!!!! instalation can go up to 50% of the cost of the proyect with isolation ventilation and other safety gadgets and that's a must, just to have an idea, I installed a 50kw genset at my bussines with automatic transfer switch and every thing and I had someoneelse install a 5.5kw on my boat... it's a different thing.. Saludos Miguel H356 #195
I'would never gave up my generator... I live in the D.R. tropics Caribbean and A/C is a necesity!!!! Beside I have the small batteries that come standard with the boat and with the gen running at night I can do whatever and they'll be charged by morning. One very important thing BE SHURE A MARINE CERTIFICATED ELECTRICIAN installs it with no cutting arround the corners!!!! instalation can go up to 50% of the cost of the proyect with isolation ventilation and other safety gadgets and that's a must, just to have an idea, I installed a 50kw genset at my bussines with automatic transfer switch and every thing and I had someoneelse install a 5.5kw on my boat... it's a different thing.. Saludos Miguel H356 #195
Mine is great!!!
I have a Fisher Panda 4200, double insulated and mounted on rubber isolators, with exhaust water separator and muffler. It is installed in the large port cockpit locker of my 356, sucks cockpit air, and exhausts overboard almost at water level. It is very quiet and I have run it all night without any setting off the CO detectors or any feeling of sickness in the morning. We enjoy not only the ability to stay cool on the hook, but have extended our sailing season by at least 2-3 months by being able to run heaters in the spring and fall while on the hook. By the way, the reverse cycle A/C unit is noisy and cycles on and off and that makes sleeping difficult, so I use two portable ceramic electric heaters from Home Depot at $25 each, which run all night at low heat settings placed on the cabin sole forward and aft. We stay cozy all night, and no noisy cycling. The heaters are safe and have tip-over cutout switches. That's what my generator has enabled. I wouldn't want to cruise without it winter or summer now that I am spoiled. It was worth every penny (or every thousand dollar bill, in this case). Ivan Bekey H356 #157
I have a Fisher Panda 4200, double insulated and mounted on rubber isolators, with exhaust water separator and muffler. It is installed in the large port cockpit locker of my 356, sucks cockpit air, and exhausts overboard almost at water level. It is very quiet and I have run it all night without any setting off the CO detectors or any feeling of sickness in the morning. We enjoy not only the ability to stay cool on the hook, but have extended our sailing season by at least 2-3 months by being able to run heaters in the spring and fall while on the hook. By the way, the reverse cycle A/C unit is noisy and cycles on and off and that makes sleeping difficult, so I use two portable ceramic electric heaters from Home Depot at $25 each, which run all night at low heat settings placed on the cabin sole forward and aft. We stay cozy all night, and no noisy cycling. The heaters are safe and have tip-over cutout switches. That's what my generator has enabled. I wouldn't want to cruise without it winter or summer now that I am spoiled. It was worth every penny (or every thousand dollar bill, in this case). Ivan Bekey H356 #157
Beware of what you are reading.
I believe that you should be aware that there are toxic levels of Carbon Monoxide in diesel too. Even Propane and Natural gas creates toxic levels of carbon monoxide. That is why many people has carbon monoxide detectors in our homes. The point here is that you do not believe that diesel exhaust is any safer. It is just that gasoline engines output higher levels.
I believe that you should be aware that there are toxic levels of Carbon Monoxide in diesel too. Even Propane and Natural gas creates toxic levels of carbon monoxide. That is why many people has carbon monoxide detectors in our homes. The point here is that you do not believe that diesel exhaust is any safer. It is just that gasoline engines output higher levels.
Never a reported CO death from a diesel genset
Only from gas engines--not only generators, but also gas boat engines. Of course diesel emissions include some CO...every fossil exhaust does. And if you were to pipe the exhaust from a diesel genset into the cabin, you could kill yourself. But every reported case of CO poisoning on boats has been from a gas generator. Oxygen depletion caused by flame heaters and stoves inside a boat with all the hatches closed tight is a bigger danger than CO poisoning from a diesel genset. If you doubt this, look up the stats.
Only from gas engines--not only generators, but also gas boat engines. Of course diesel emissions include some CO...every fossil exhaust does. And if you were to pipe the exhaust from a diesel genset into the cabin, you could kill yourself. But every reported case of CO poisoning on boats has been from a gas generator. Oxygen depletion caused by flame heaters and stoves inside a boat with all the hatches closed tight is a bigger danger than CO poisoning from a diesel genset. If you doubt this, look up the stats.
Here's two reasons why you should get both!!
Resale value, Resale value!. Isn't Hunter still doing that special where they "throw in" the Generator and Reverse Cycle?? If they are not still offering that special, I would still recomend that you get both the Generator AND the Reverse cycle. Getting one without the other is like having apple pie without the vanilla ice cream. I guarantee that there will be times while anchored or on a mooring that you will want to have either heat or A/C. I say go for both. You won't regret it. Good luck with the new boat.
Resale value, Resale value!. Isn't Hunter still doing that special where they "throw in" the Generator and Reverse Cycle?? If they are not still offering that special, I would still recomend that you get both the Generator AND the Reverse cycle. Getting one without the other is like having apple pie without the vanilla ice cream. I guarantee that there will be times while anchored or on a mooring that you will want to have either heat or A/C. I say go for both. You won't regret it. Good luck with the new boat.
Thoughts About Unmonitored Generator Operation
The concerns I would have about runing a gen set while sleeping is knowing about what could go wrong. Fortunately, on the newer boats, there is an alternative escape route so that helps. Electrical wiring, especially 110v, is subject to vibration and corrosion. The newer boats I suspect are using tin-plated wires but the older ones had just plain copper. The vibration, caused by the diesel engine, can cause the contacts between the receptacle and the conductor to loosen. I have pictures that were submitted some time back about what happens - the contacts heat up and start melting things. If not caught there can be a fire. Another concern is about air quality, or primarily the lack there of, from diesel exhaust. The scientific literature is replete with the hazardous aspects of diesel exhaust (for example, http://www.lungusa.org/air/airout00_diesel.html), and this is a compariatively mild report about the hazardous aspects of breathing this stuff. A Scientific American article a couple years ago had much stronger wording about diesel exhaust hazards. Unlike an RV where air can flow under the vehicle and where the occupants are above the ground, in a sailboat most occupants are closer to sea level and down low and there probably is poor air exchange with the outside. A third issue is what happens if something goes wrong with the generating system such as, say, a fuel leak? What about the fuel-return lines for a diesel gen set - do they have them? If so there is the potential for a runaway engine. Should something happen while everybody is sleeping this could cause serious problem. Houses have electrical work that is done by licensed electricians and inspected and they are not constantly vibrated - a big difference. Fortunately our waters are cooled by the melting Alaska glaciers and the polar ice cap so the weather isn't quite as hot as back east. The flip side of the coin, however, is you need a waterproof boat and a good heater!
The concerns I would have about runing a gen set while sleeping is knowing about what could go wrong. Fortunately, on the newer boats, there is an alternative escape route so that helps. Electrical wiring, especially 110v, is subject to vibration and corrosion. The newer boats I suspect are using tin-plated wires but the older ones had just plain copper. The vibration, caused by the diesel engine, can cause the contacts between the receptacle and the conductor to loosen. I have pictures that were submitted some time back about what happens - the contacts heat up and start melting things. If not caught there can be a fire. Another concern is about air quality, or primarily the lack there of, from diesel exhaust. The scientific literature is replete with the hazardous aspects of diesel exhaust (for example, http://www.lungusa.org/air/airout00_diesel.html), and this is a compariatively mild report about the hazardous aspects of breathing this stuff. A Scientific American article a couple years ago had much stronger wording about diesel exhaust hazards. Unlike an RV where air can flow under the vehicle and where the occupants are above the ground, in a sailboat most occupants are closer to sea level and down low and there probably is poor air exchange with the outside. A third issue is what happens if something goes wrong with the generating system such as, say, a fuel leak? What about the fuel-return lines for a diesel gen set - do they have them? If so there is the potential for a runaway engine. Should something happen while everybody is sleeping this could cause serious problem. Houses have electrical work that is done by licensed electricians and inspected and they are not constantly vibrated - a big difference. Fortunately our waters are cooled by the melting Alaska glaciers and the polar ice cap so the weather isn't quite as hot as back east. The flip side of the coin, however, is you need a waterproof boat and a good heater!
Genset noise
Bruce Be sure you listen to the noise level in the aft cabin with the standard Northern Lights installation. We have this on our 420 and find that it is just too loud to sleep. Even earplugs don't seem to help. If it can be installed elsewhere besides atop the Yanmar look into it or see how much more a quieter unit would be. Also it makes me nervous when I can't hear whats going on in and around the boat. For these reasons we almost never use it at night. Wish we'd spent more upfront for a quieter unit. Good luck Greg Beckner S/V Champagne Girl
Bruce Be sure you listen to the noise level in the aft cabin with the standard Northern Lights installation. We have this on our 420 and find that it is just too loud to sleep. Even earplugs don't seem to help. If it can be installed elsewhere besides atop the Yanmar look into it or see how much more a quieter unit would be. Also it makes me nervous when I can't hear whats going on in and around the boat. For these reasons we almost never use it at night. Wish we'd spent more upfront for a quieter unit. Good luck Greg Beckner S/V Champagne Girl
Agree with Greg
I researched various gensets after I orderd my 356 but before they built it. I rejected the Northern Lights in favor of the Fisher Panda as there is a HUGE sound and vibration difference between them. See my reply earlier in this thread for details. I had mine mounted in the large port cockpit locker. I believe that the 426 also has one like that--it is out of the way, relatively separated from the cabin, and there is plenty of room. We have used it all night, and the purring just puts you to sleep, rather than keeping you awake. As to safety I certainly agree with Peggy. Rather worry about your boat being hit by lightning while you sleep as it is far more likley than diesel genset fumes. If you want more detail contact me at ibekey@aol.com Ivan Bekey
I researched various gensets after I orderd my 356 but before they built it. I rejected the Northern Lights in favor of the Fisher Panda as there is a HUGE sound and vibration difference between them. See my reply earlier in this thread for details. I had mine mounted in the large port cockpit locker. I believe that the 426 also has one like that--it is out of the way, relatively separated from the cabin, and there is plenty of room. We have used it all night, and the purring just puts you to sleep, rather than keeping you awake. As to safety I certainly agree with Peggy. Rather worry about your boat being hit by lightning while you sleep as it is far more likley than diesel genset fumes. If you want more detail contact me at ibekey@aol.com Ivan Bekey
An alternative a lot of people dismiss without
ever trying it: 12v fans. "Oh, it gets too hot and humid for fans to do any good," they think....air conditioning is the only answer. Not so. There can be nights when it's too hot and humid, but any time you can be comfortable in the cockpit or on deck, fans can make you comfortable below. Cabins become very uncomfortable because even with hatches open, nothing is pulling any outside air through the boat or exhausting body heat and stale air that settles in the cabin. Any breeze coming over the bow has a hard time finding it's way down an open hatch without some help. Fans provide that help. Even though I had central heat/ac, because I had gas engines and a gas genset, no WAY would I even think of running it overnight. There were many nights on an anchor when it is was delightful in the cockpit, but the v-berth was so stifling I'd give up and go back to the slip to plug into shore power so I could use the AC...until I installed 3 8" oscillating 12v fans. I had 'em wired in and permanently mounted on bulkheads. What a difference they made! And if fans could make my boat comfortable in July and August in GA, they'll make a boat comfortable anywhere. And they cost a LOT less than retrofitting a genset and heat/ac. So don't knock 'em till you've 'em...they do work. Just don't skimp and get 'em too small to move any air.
ever trying it: 12v fans. "Oh, it gets too hot and humid for fans to do any good," they think....air conditioning is the only answer. Not so. There can be nights when it's too hot and humid, but any time you can be comfortable in the cockpit or on deck, fans can make you comfortable below. Cabins become very uncomfortable because even with hatches open, nothing is pulling any outside air through the boat or exhausting body heat and stale air that settles in the cabin. Any breeze coming over the bow has a hard time finding it's way down an open hatch without some help. Fans provide that help. Even though I had central heat/ac, because I had gas engines and a gas genset, no WAY would I even think of running it overnight. There were many nights on an anchor when it is was delightful in the cockpit, but the v-berth was so stifling I'd give up and go back to the slip to plug into shore power so I could use the AC...until I installed 3 8" oscillating 12v fans. I had 'em wired in and permanently mounted on bulkheads. What a difference they made! And if fans could make my boat comfortable in July and August in GA, they'll make a boat comfortable anywhere. And they cost a LOT less than retrofitting a genset and heat/ac. So don't knock 'em till you've 'em...they do work. Just don't skimp and get 'em too small to move any air.
Thank you
I wish to thank everyone who answered this question. This past week, my wife and I put a deposit down on a 426DS with a Panda generator and a/c. We are also having fans installed. We probably will not sleep with the a/c on but will do as some of you suggested, cool down the boat and then keep it closed up. Thanks again for your help. I am really impressed with this web site. Bruce
I wish to thank everyone who answered this question. This past week, my wife and I put a deposit down on a 426DS with a Panda generator and a/c. We are also having fans installed. We probably will not sleep with the a/c on but will do as some of you suggested, cool down the boat and then keep it closed up. Thanks again for your help. I am really impressed with this web site. Bruce
GET IT ALL
I HAVE A 426DS AND THE AC/HEAT IS A VERY GOOD ITEM TO HAVE. THEN AGAIN I GOT ALMOST ALL THE EXTRAS. ALL WHO I HAVE TALK TO WHO NOW HAVE A NEW BOAT WISHED THAT THEY COULD HAVE PUT IT IN. ITS JUST ANOTHER MTG PAYMENT. ITS A GREAT RIDING BOAT. GOOD LUCK.
I HAVE A 426DS AND THE AC/HEAT IS A VERY GOOD ITEM TO HAVE. THEN AGAIN I GOT ALMOST ALL THE EXTRAS. ALL WHO I HAVE TALK TO WHO NOW HAVE A NEW BOAT WISHED THAT THEY COULD HAVE PUT IT IN. ITS JUST ANOTHER MTG PAYMENT. ITS A GREAT RIDING BOAT. GOOD LUCK.
More on the AC w/o Generator
Steve Feinsilver's article spurred my interest. Diesel Trucks w/sleepers run all night. Steve, does the A/C work off the engine? I think I could get used to the noise as long as I'm not sweating.
Steve Feinsilver's article spurred my interest. Diesel Trucks w/sleepers run all night. Steve, does the A/C work off the engine? I think I could get used to the noise as long as I'm not sweating.
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