First Boat Recommendations (aka - Can-o-Worms post)

Captain Larry-DH · Dec 29, 2018

Welcome to the board, @regex
I’m sure you can find some good advice here, but the question is very broad and it would help to narrow it down by model (rather than brand). If you have a budget in mind that would also help people zero in on recommendations. Over the years styling changes.
Considering this will be your first boat, a newer model will be easier on your maintenance learning curve.

jssailem · Dec 29, 2018

@regex i saw a Catalina 38 at the Annapolis boat show that would fit your bill.
Size matters in moorage costs handling. Bigger means more yearly costs.

I’m a CAL owner so no skin in the game. They sail fairly well. And are well apportioned.

Boomer54 · Dec 29, 2018

I have a Marlow Hunter 37 which is essentially a 40’ Boat with a 13’ 1” beam. She sails well and points into the wind very well. Single hand la well also. Most of the folks I sail with have Hunters larger than mine and they have no complaints about pointing. They include two 45’s, one 40.5 and one 50’.

rgranger · Dec 29, 2018

I have owned a lot of different sailboats. Two coronados, three macgregors, a Rhodes, a Balboa several sailing dinghys, a hobie ....My most recent boat is a hunter 26.

It is not the BEST sailing boat I have ever owned but it is not the worst and with a few mods I have addressed most of the difficiencies.

It IS the most comfortable and easy to handle boat I’ve ever owned. The amenities are great at anchor and she is a breeze to single hand. I know that my experiences are with boats much smaller than you are considering but thought my take on the hunter design might be helpful
Happy hunting

dlochner · Dec 29, 2018

regex said:
A good sailing boat. What I mean is, I don't want a "condo on the water" I want a boat that is comfortable but can also get up and move if I want it to.

Life is too short to sail slow boats! If you want to get a rough guide on how fast boats are, look at their PHRF ratings. The ratings are not absolute in their speed estimates, however, if a boat doesn't have a rating, then no one has thought about racing them and that should be a clue about speed and sailing performance. Also don't over interpret the ratings, a difference of a few seconds a mile is really a difference that doesn't make a difference. When the rating differences start pushing 20+ seconds a mile, that becomes a difference worth noting.

regex said:
Possible single-hander (not required, my son sails as well) but if I can outfit it or if it lends itself toward single handing that would be a bonus.

Any boat can be sailed single handed, it is all about how the boat is rigged and whether there is a good auto helm. Don't let this be a factor unless you are looking at 2 more or less identical boats and one is rigged for solo sailing and one isn't.

regex said:
I know there are a lot of Catalina lovers out there for the large aftermarket, the Beneteau seems to be a popular luxury brand although I have never sailed one. The outlier here is the Hunter.

These are all standard production boats, think Ford, Chevys, and Chryslers. Tartans and Sabres are a notch above the standard production boats. And then there are the Morrises and Hinckleys which are a notch higher. Some companies stress performance over amenities, J Boat and C&C are two that come quickly to mind. Others stress amenities over performance, Island Packets are an example, comfortable well built but slow boats.

As with most things in life, you get what you pay for.

LeslieTroyer · Dec 29, 2018

The Catalina 42 is a great family boat. My 36 would work but a bit on the small side. My advise is to charter two or three on you list before committing. A 40+ boat is a bit big for a beginner so classes for the whole family is in order. Remember teanagers will listen to s stranger over their parents ( who are dumber than dog shit) so it helps there also.

VanIslandGuy · Dec 29, 2018

Hi Regex,

When we were looking in the market I had settled more or less on the same list you had. When buying used the condition of the boat and how the previous owner makes as much as difference as anything else.

In addition to the above models I would also look at the Catalina 400. The cockpit is nicer than the Catalina 42 and the space usage is excellent.

We bought a 1998 Hunter 410. As we wanted maximum performance we found one with a deep 6'6" lead keel and a non-furling mainsail. I held similar performance reservations about Hunter yachts before buying this one. I couldn't have been more wrong.

With 20 year old sails the boat moves well in both light and heavy air. We've got cruising laminate carbon light skin sails on order for this summer and wouldn't have made the investment had we thought the boat was a poor performer. I've sailed on lots of Beneteau's, Jeunneau's, CS's, Bayfield's (used to own a tall rig full keel 32c), and C&C's as well as Lagoon's, Gemini's and one 46' Foutain Pajot. I am no master mariner, nor am I a hard core racer, but I have had the good fortune to sail on lots of friends boats, and charters since I started sailing 20 years ago. The Hunter 410 is a very good sailing boat, and stands equal or better to the other big production builders models of similar size. Performance wise it's not a J boat, but it loses nothing to the Bene, Catalina, Jeanneau of the same vintage.

The traveller arch is 20 years ahead of its time and goes to show how ahead of the game they were compared to the competition. The fact that Beneteau now offers it as an option, or that Najad (dream boat much higher quality than any of the other boats discussed) includes them as standard should end the debate. Why is the arch so great? End boom sheeting up high provides the most effective sheeting angle to control the boom with a highly effective traveller, and keeps most the line out of the cockpit. This makes short handing, or having non sailing guests on board much easier. The steering is rack and pinion and is very responsive. It's very easy to move upwind with the sails balanced and only finger tip steering. The most wind I've seen was 30-35 kts. With two reefs in the main the boat was easy to helm and we stayed dry in the cockpit.

The boat sails well on all points other than dead downwind. We've sailed wing on wing, but with the swept spreaders you can't ease the main far enough out for perfect trim. A better way to sail it is 10-15' off DDW and gybe to course. You will sail faster, and have less risk of an accidental gybe. Otherwise DDW you can drop the main or sheet it in, and use a spinnaker. This is no different than when sailing on a cruising catamaran which are often B&R rigged.

The boat is easy to single hand sail (a good autopilot helps), and coming into a dock single handed is best done in reverse. The boat is extremely easy to maneuver going astern and needs only 1.5 kts to initiate a 90' turn if done smoothly. I normally back in all the way to my slip from outside the marina, rather than coming in forward and doing a turn to reverse just before my slip. In a strong crosswind situation though the boat has a lot of hull form windage and high side decks so I would likely anchor out and wait rather than coming in alone with nobody to pass a line to. Hope this helps, PM me if you have any questions.

JohnShannon · Dec 30, 2018

Beneteau First series. Better built better performing line of cruiser /racer than other Beneteaus. They made a 40' ish version from 1985 to the present day so you can pick your price and performance level.

Kings Gambit · Dec 30, 2018

Of the yachts you listed, considering your needs, I would probably pick the Catalina 42. Not that I’m an especially big fan of Catalinas generally, or of that model in particular, it does have a lot to offer. I’ve known fairly well four Catalina 42 owners. One of ‘em a yacht sales broker. A fifth owner, known not quite as well, raced his Cat 42 in ASBCYC races (Association of Santa Barbara Channel Yacht Clubs), including having raced it to Hawai’i in the 2015 TransPac, as I recall. A sixth owner who I’ll likely get to know soon occupies the slip next to us in his very handsome Catalina 42 Mark II. Add that to the fact that I chartered one (two couples aboard) out of Long Beach some years ago for a 4-day weekend to Cat Harbor, Catalina Island. The short version is that all of those owners were happy w/their yachts to my knowledge. The one next to me is VERY nice, and the owners appear very happy with it as well.

The single-handing attempts have produced mixed reviews, mostly on the side of feeling over powered. This I attribute to owner lack of experience trying to sail in high wind with a large genny fully deployed, etc. The yachts are relatively fast under sail, easily exceeding 7.5 kt beam reaching in moderate air, and are comfortable.

Somewhat to the negative. On the charter, below decks, there were not well placed hand holds. The one on the cabin top centerline had me swinging like a gibbon at the San Diego Wild Animal Park trying to reach stuff. (I’m not tall.) On the 5 n.mi. broad reach from the west end to Cat Head, the boat wallowed in the 6-ft following seas to the point of making the Admiral seasick. Prior to that, hard on the wind b/f rounding the west end (typical), the yacht seemed excessively heeled but had old sails, of course. Admiral and crew also noted exhaust smells in the cockpit during some motoring earlier in that trip before rounding the west end. So, there’s that. My Bavaria 38E does not ride that way in the same conditions.

We did not charter that yacht again. The next time we took the Beneteau 42. Different trip— just a day trip of 12 n.mi. Up-wind from Long Beach to Cabrillo Beach, dinner on the hook, then home. Eight or nine folks aboard. I thought it a much nicer sailing yacht, but it was also newer.

So, there it is!
KG

jssailem · Dec 30, 2018

@regex It would appear that price is not as important as finding the right fit. If sailing speed is an issue, there is always the CAL 40. She is a classic and has a racing reputation.

Solo sailing is not as easy yet if you trim the sails to the conditions (as suggested by @Kings Gambit ) you’ll find nearly any boat can be managed. At some point in size the sails get to be a bit too much for a single sailor. I tried to manhandle a mainsail for a 50ft boat. I found I was mostly dragging it rather than lifting it into the cockpit.

Everything is compromise on a boat. This CAL 40 was found in sorry shape. She was fully restored and as the video shares raced in the Trans PAC.

Here is a link that may provide some ideas.
https://www.morganscloud.com/2017/12/29/which-is-the-best-boat-for-offshore-cruising/

JamesG161 · Dec 30, 2018

regex said:
A good sailing boat. What I mean is, I don't want a "condo on the water"

For family comfort, perhaps a RV on the water?
1) Refrigerator
2) Genset
3) AC
4) Good stereo system

Most 40'+ boats are limited by their hull speeds.

Single handed...
1) Roller and in-mast furling
2) Radar
3) Auto Pilot
4) Electric winch

Good hunting.
Jim...

DayDreamer41 · Dec 30, 2018

@regex, by your avatar it appears that you have already made your choice (Catalina 42 MK II), my wife and I purchased our 2007 Hunter 41 DS in 2016 and sailed her home some 500 nm Lake Michigan and the length of Lake Huron in early September, she behaves very well both under sail and auxiliary power, handling in close quarters can get tricky as she displays much of her hull above the water line, a plus for accommodations a negative for tight quarters handling.
As for pointing, its not a J boat, but can reasonably stay just inside 30*, with the in mast furling we are able to easily have endless reefing possibilities and have sailed her comfortably in winds of 25 gusting to >30 while maintaining a fairly balance helm.
I haven't spent much time on the hook, but I have heard that the 41DS like to sail while on the hook, this can be mitigated with the use of an anchor sail flown off the topping lift.
As for the boat appointments we want for nothing, other than a longer sailing season, the boat was equipped with the mariner package which included a 6.5 KW generator, AC and a bow thruster (which definitely helps in those tight fairways).
The Sapphire does dock easily and as mentions stern first is not too difficult with practice (but that is true for anything), I believe (although haven't tried) that I could bring it in single handed along a wall, or a dock with a gangway, but where we keep her, there is no way I would even try it as I have to go stern in and there is no gangway which make retrieving the dock lines near impossible alone.
I have raced a few races and I surely can't blame the boat for the results, but I do have fun participating.
Mark

genec · Jan 13, 2019

Since you do "rent" or charter boats... I would think your best way to chose what is right for you is to go out and charter those boats on your list and see how they feel.

Personally, based on your list... I would steer you toward the Catalina 42 or the Beneteau First.

I was once a member of a charter club and this is exactly what helped me decide what features and performance I enjoyed the most... and yeah, I have chartered both of the boats I just mentioned, as well as some others on your list... but my budget took me to something a lot smaller.

Fair winds

Terry Cox · Jan 13, 2019

Hunter 40.5 would be my first choice in that size range. If you come across a Hunter Passage 42, make sure your family does not come aboard, because that will become your new best boat. Our P42 will out sail most boats (based upon experience), except maybe the 'J' boats. If it happens to have a Genset with heat pumps, keep the family at a distance.

When we decided to up size my eye was on the 40.5. There was a P42 on the same dock a few slips over and after checking out the well off shore equipped 40.5, the admiral wanted to take a look see at the P42. The story ended there with the P42 becoming our new family member. No regrets. Easy to solo sail, fast, stiff and lots of nice appointments below. That was in 2002 and still glad the admiral had the wisdom after cruising several thousands of miles in PNW waters.

John Nantz · Jan 13, 2019

regex said:
A good sailing boat. What I mean is, I don't want a "condo on the water" I want a boat that is comfortable but can also get up and move if I want it to.

Possible single-hander (not required, my son sails as well) but if I can outfit it or if it lends itself toward single handing that would be a bonus.

I know that is pretty basic, but this is our first sailboat (tired of renting) so we are keeping our options pretty open.

Here are the 3 I am looking at pretty seriously:

Catalina MK II 42

Beneteau 423

Hunter 410 or 41

Possibly a Jeanneau? Not sure yet.

-Shane

Few thoughts here:
1. Sailing-wise, addressing your "single-hander" wish: If I had to do get another boat a fractional-rig would be high on my list because I do short-handed sailing. In the past I've crewed on a Cal 40 and a C&C 36, both masthead rigs, and getting the jib around on a tack is a LOT more work than on a fractional rig.
Another advantage to the fractional rig in the size you're looking at, and the way you'd like to sail, flying a Code 0 would be a lot easier, but with a masthead rig it would be more of a handful. If the maneuver "went south" with just two, well, running over your sail and snagging it on the keel, prop, or rudder wouldn't be fun. Something to think about. Flying a chute is fun (when everything goes right). Had our H35 at 10 knots (through the water) on several occasions with my wife as crew. Rather exciting.
2. Used boat sails: Blown-out or tired sails need to be replaced and they're really expensive, but good sails really make the boat sail well. We take ours off during the off-season so they last longer (and it's a long off-season). Lines that have been out in the sun degrade from UV - also expensive. I use teathers to run the halyards to the top of the mast to keep them out of the sun and weather.
3. Couple nice things about Hunter: Until recently the big boats had lead keels instead of iron. Nice. Also, the Hunters had more wood showing on the interior than the others.
Performance?: I think the ones you listed will compete with each other well, given equal sail conditions. Beneteau makes a more performance model and I think the Catalina 400 is supposed to be that too but I don't know for sure. If one wants to get out there and race, these boats aren't going to compete with the higher performing boats in the fleet so you'll probably be unhappy. For one, to be competitive, the boat is supposed to be in "racing trim" (Read: stripped of any weight) and probably over-stress the sails which negates using it for fun. For me, that's a deal breaker but your mileage may vary.

I'm first to admit our H35 is no race boat but it's no slouch, either. In our one-and-only PHRF race, ~ 6 hours long, we came in 2:30 (two minutes, 30 seconds) behind 1st place Hobie 33, and just ahead of a C&C34 boat-for-boat (they were top Puget Sound race boat of the year) but we lost to him by just seconds on corrected, and our rating was 118. Given that because we were a "new" boat and the rater said we had to "work our way up the ladder." So which is it: race boat or equipped cruise boat?

By the way, my wife helped select our boat. "A happy wife makes for a happy husband", or something like that.