Firearms on boats?

[Phil Herring]

SITE INTERVENTION

I thought that would get your attention. Obviously, this is a highly charged subject. Discussion is good, but if this wanders off into flaming and broad political comment I will remove the entire thread.So let's stick to the poster's original question and make sure our thread pertains to sailing. Thanks!ph.

 

[Barry]

Overview

to all of this. I use to belong to the NRA. I don't anymore but do believe in the principles that they speak about. I don't care where in the world you are, you have a right to protect yourself. To be reckless? no! stupid? no! you have to use common sense. I am handicapped and have a concealed weapons permit. Carrying a gun saved my mothers life. I am alone alot and a seemingly easy target, so I believe I have a right to protect myself. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but me and the people I love have a right to be alive. Just my two cents worth.Barry (Harpman)

 

[Jack]

Be Safe

Jeff,If you decide to take a gun on your boat, please ensure you're up to date on its safe handling. As you are a member of the NRA, you probably know of the many efforts they expend in promoting safe gun ownership and handling. Apparently they promote gun safety more than all anti-gun groups combined. So, take advantage of their programs. Bottom line - be safe and enjoy your nautical adventures!JackP.S. Disclaimer: I am not a member of the NRA. I'm simply an advocate of safe gun usage and responsible gun ownership.

 

[Tom S.]

You've just opened a HUGE can of worms

nm

 

[Steve]

Tell ya what!

Ok, I think that most of us can and will agree that if you are sailing in US coastal waters, where the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is in effect, then a possession of a weapon on board might be a good thing, perfectly legal.But if you are in Mexico or Canada or lots of countries, both Modern and back-water, and you are in possession of a firearm, you CAN BE ARRESTED. Now, you can stand on the Constitution and Old Glory till you are an old man, but it won't hold a candle... and it isn't going to get you out of jail. Whether you used the weapon or not.. doesn't make any difference, because these other countries don't go by our book!So, maybe it would be good to talk about what one would do IF one is accosted on the high seas or in other territorial waters than the US, where you are threatened by others. What resourceful means of protection are available from ordinary boating means?Steve

 

[Kevin]

Hard to argue your legal rights if you are dead!

Sail to safe areas only. Know how to handle any weapon you might carry. Don't "wish" you had your firearm with you when you need it...have it...but only use it as a last resort. I wouldn't leave home without it!

 

[Mike Whalen]

Bullets are hard to take back

There was an interesting story in either Sail or Cruising World (the only two I get but I forget which one). The guy was talking about all the stories of pirates and his fears. Tehn one day the small dingy comes at high rate of speed directly at him. Looks like trouble. Wondering what to do, and rehearing all those stories. As local gets close enough he sees the offered free fish. I have successfuly defended folks on self defense. I still advise them to get rid of the damned things. In my experience only bad things happen when guns get introduced. As to safety surveys, remember the line, lies damned lies and statistics. Tell me what you want to hear and I'll get you the right numbers. But irreversable errors are a bitch.Mike

 

[steven f.]

good flare gun

I used to carry a gun with me (a life in Miami will do that to you) but when sailing a belive in a solid flare gun. It's legal in all countries and will kick some ass if used in the same manor. I'm talking about larger flare guns not the cheapy disposable ones. Just my thought.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Mike, I was asked about flare guns in one or

more Caribbean Islands. They are now illegal as are spear guns and the like.

 

[Steve]

Then how do you stay legal here?

Just out of curiosity... if you are not allowed to have flare guns in certain areas... just how are you going to stay legal here?I suggest BOYCOTTING those places in which safety items on board are illegal (anti-gun crowd carried TOO far!). The lack of tourism might wake some of these places up. Firearms are one thing, safety items (which also can be used defensively) are another.Steve

 

[Debra B]

Firearms and customs

Declare your arms at check-in. The Bahamas lets you keep them, but you have to account for all rounds of ammo at check-out.Other countries will impound them for the length of your stay. This means you need to check-out from the same port where you checked in. This can be a hassel. Some will let you keep your guns if you have a sufficently secure "customs locker." This is a case or cabinet that can be secured, is reasonable immune to being openned and can be tagged by the customs official to be sure you have not openned it during your stay.On the high seas, there is no law, and no 911. (Having been the victim of a crime in the US, I can tell you that 911 gets called after the fact in most cases.) If you do run into unfriendlies, they are likely to have AK-47s. Fully automatic weapons are virtually impossible to aim, so this not automatically the deciding factor. Mini-14 is good, I would select something with a larger caliber than a .223 - something like a 308. Mossberg Mariner is a version of the Persuader 12 guage that has a high-tech nickol-alloy coating on all moving parts. You can swim with these weapons, and pour the water out of the barrel and start shooting.Shooting inside a foriegn country can be a problem. But since in most cases I am aware of those who survived a pirate attack, did so because they got to medical attention quickly....If you don't think you can shoot someone who is attacking you (or you spouse or your children) then don't have a gun. Having been the victim of a crime, I can honestly say that if someone ever attacks me again - either I will kill him, or he will kill me, there is no third choice.(And for the NRA basher out there - I am neither a Red-Neck, nor an young male. And I have spent years thinking about this. I also believe that a parent who will not act - up to and including the use of deadly force - to defend their children from attack does not understand their responsibility)

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Steve, I'm with you on that one. Lazy officials

are rampant in the Caribbean. Very few of them get off their butts and look at the boats they are dealing with. If they do, two thirds of them, in my experience, ask for a bribe or gratuity. Grrrr. What that led to, on my part, is treating them with irrelevance. We just ignored checking in. Even in Porto Rico an official on VHF wanted us to take a taxi into the center of town just to pay an $8.00 nuisance fee. When he would not take our visa card over the phone we ignored him too. We had our clearance. In places like Grenada and St. Vincent the officials would have we cruisers fill out forms and then give us a copy and stamp our passports. Their copy would then be spindled, literally on a big nail added to several years worth of forms that no one ever looked at again. True bureaucrats. In the Abbacos at six in the morning, a mega yacht was tied to a concrete dock. Clearly a danger to his fine finish. An official could be seen on the pier with a clip board. We went past and dropped the hook and went to bed. We were only in the lee of the island for some rest and were moving west asap. The vhf came alive with an official directing us to the pier. I told them my crew was asleep and it was a two man job to get the boat there and our dinghy was secure on davits. This went back and forth for a minute or two and then I asked if the official had a boat to come to our location. She said no. I turned off the radio and went to bed. DISCLAIMER; I am in no way suggesting others do this. I did it because of my life in police work led me to have no patience or tolerance for lazy incompitance.

 

[Jeff M.]

Thank you Mr. Herring

Thank you Mr. Herring for your comments. I too was somewhat afraid that responses to my posting would degrade into useless name calling and other such childish behavior, when what I was hoping for was specific reccommendations from other firearms enthusiasts who also happen to sail. I'm not about to waste my time debating the 2nd ammendment with anyone. You either believe in the right (and duty) of self-defense or you don't. I learned a long time ago that trying to convince someone who is anti-gun to change their mind is somewhat akin to trying to teach a dog to sing, i.e you just waste your time and make the dog mad. Fortunately, there are enough of us on this wonderful website to engage in a real world discussion over the types of self defense implements one may choose to employ in defeating the potential forces of evil that I strongly hope we can continue in an adult fashion and not have the entire thread removed. Anyhow... yes, Debra B, I see what you mean. A .223 is a little on the light side and I'd really prefer something in the .308 range. An AR-10 would be good, but I don't know if you can get one in stainless. Maybe one of the Teflon finishes would be okay, like Robar or something similiar. I've also considered my Remington 700 BDL in .300 Win. Mag. but it's one of my favorite guns and I don't think I'd want to subject it to life aboard a boat. (had to special order it in left hand and it's my main high power target rifle. With optics, rings, trigger job, etc., I've got well over $2k into it.) One of the AK variants might be okay, but I've never much cared for the 7.62 X 39 round. A 12 ga. with slugs would be effective and cheap, but accuracy beyond 100 yds. starts to get iffy. Has anyone ever had a chance to try a 25 mm. flare gun? What kind of horizontal reange can you get from it? How's the recoil? Can you think of anything else? Oh, and by the way, yes, I have had a long talk with myself years ago and know in my heart of hearts, that as a last resort, I could (and would) take another persons life if they were threatening my life or that of another innocent person. I could do so without hesitation or remorse, as I figure they made the decision to put us in that situation and I am merely providing a second option that they likely hadn't thought about. And yes, I am highly trained and proficient with firearms in general and my personal firearms in particular. As I mentioned in the original posting, I'm even a certified Range Safety Officer, so I take firearms safety VERY seriously. In closing, I don't want to make anyone mad, I'm just looking for some information.Thanks,JeffS/V Katrina Marie

 

[David Perkins]

Like MaterCard ..... Never leave home without it.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Well written Jeff, some thoughts though

I don't think long range should be your goal. The only way to effectively suppress your beaten zone from a moving deck is with a machine gun. A shotgun is in order for you based upon your concerns. And capacity should be primary and foremost. Also think about gauge (get a 12ga) and consider your loads. You need to be EFFECTIVE against a adversary. That means rifled slugs and OO buck. I would alternate each load in my magazine and start with buckshot in the chamber. In police work, the shotgun is our historically best friend. It saves many lives too because we don't carry a round in the chamber. We call out our presence and rack one into the chamber. The bad guys, (usually burglars) give up right then and there. How's that from a NRA hater?

 

[Jeff M.]

Thanks Fred

I know what you mean. On the two occasions when I have been forced to display a firearm in self defense, both were with a Mossberg 590,(short barrel, long magazine, Choate top-folding stock, SureFire front grip and a SideSaddle) and in both instances the sound of a shell racking into the chamber quickly changed their tune from 'We're gonna %#$@ you up old man' to 'Gee, we're sorry sir, we'll just be leaving now' Sooo... there is something to be said for psycological impact! And hey, the NRA is cool with me!

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Hey Phil, are you getting this?

See, we can get along, just as long as brains are there.

 

[Tom S.]

Steve, be sure you have all your permits

it might be legal in the good 'ole USA to have a gun on board but you must have the proper permit in some states. I'm pretty sure in NY waters if you had a handgun and no permit and somebody told on you, you'd have troubles. I'm sure some other states are the same. Everyone should check with local regulations firstAlso remember the laws of search and seizure on coastal waters are the same as on land.Not saying whether its right or wrong to have a gun just some issues to ponder.I think for most people and most cruising grounds I think having firearms might be more trouble than they are worth because I really think the threat is lower than most peoples back yards and actually pretty rare for the actual numbers out there.I really think that not "looking" like an easy target and suceptable is important, obviously not possible for everyone, but most "bad guys" go after the easy targets. A nasty barking dog on board can become a big deterent, some people have a weird fear of strange dogs, even if they are armed.Now if I was going to be travelling far away (e.g. Southeast Asia) where help is days or weeks away and there might be a real threat to my life then I might consider it.(Why don't you do a search in the archives....this has been discussed ad naseum in the past)ps. I have shot a few flare guns this past summer (Old expired flares we wanted to get rid of so we shot them off on July 4th). To whomever made the comment on what it would do to fiberglass or wood, I think you'd be disappointed, no matter how hot the flare is, I'm pretty sure it would just bounce off the boat. Unless of course you got lucky & hit someones sail or canvas and maybe started a fire, but in the heat of the moment, good luck. I think the most that would happen is that you'd startle the intruders. They are also not very accurate, but I think at very close range they might do something, but even then it might most likely bounce off the person. If you don't believe me go make up a resonable "dummy" puts some clothes on it and try and shoot the thing with a flare gun. I think you'll be disappointed. A spear gun would be much more effective.Remember, Don't think you'd be as lucky as Nicole Kidman with her use of a flare gun on Billy Zane in Dead Clam...;-)

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

Hey, Jeff, came across a namesake of yours

who was participating in a gun thread somewhere else. In 1999 he had this to say:"Every time I read a post about California and all the firearms B.S. it makes me sick and pissed off to see what's going on out there, and I really feel sorry for the law abiding gun owners. I hope people stand up before this gets totally out of hand, because it scares the hell out of me to think what will follow if we lose our second amendment rights. Just a small part of my twocents worth.Jeff M.N.R.A. Life MemberFight the good fight "It's a surprisingly small world, ain't it?If you are interested in corresponding with him I can probably find you his e-mail address.Have fun,Flying Dutchman

 

[Russell Egge]

Guns outside the USA

While the interpretation of the 2nd amendment does allow individuals the right to arm themselves sufficiently to over through a small country, this right does not travel beyond the boarders of the US. Whether in Canada, Mexico or any other country you need to understand and obey their laws or be required to spend additional time in the local jail and or loose your boat. Remember the US government has very little interest in rescuing it citizens from Mexican jails. Russell