Firearms on boats?

[Ray Bowles]

Jeff, Given your experence with arms,

I think you probably already know your answer. Your firearm must stand up to the conditions found at sea and must be effective at close range. You'll not know the outcome of any meeting with bads guys until they are close enough to converse or act. The same perameters as around your home. No down to the corner shooting, just up close and personal.That said... after actually having been, and currently being a cruiser, I doubt the chance of needing a gun for personal safety is greater than .01 percent.Where will you cruise? Will you be the only boat around? Do you have any experence (actual time in field) that indicates this is a common occurance?I had the same question when we left on our journey and have found my fears unfounded. The hassle of regulations, inspections and the consequences of false, or even accurate, declerations made my being armed a poor idea.The safer choice was to select better places to cruise.Lastly, the greatest danger comes while ashore and carrying arms there,outside the US, is simply not tolerated. That said, it still is a personal choice and either go naked or use an Alaskan bear wand. 10 or 12 ga. short barreled shotgun with at least a 6 shot capacity of #4 shot. Covers more area than 00.RayS/V Scooter

 

[Richard Marble]

Is this post realy about protection?

Do you guys really thinks that you are going to be in danger of pirates or crooks trying to board you, or do you just have a gun fetish?I hear a lot of talk about the size of your gun and how you would be protecting your wife from being raped and you getting murdered because you had a gun on board but I haven’t heard anyone say anything about the more boring subject of protecting your wife from your actions when incoming started hitting your boat when you supposedly have this Rambo moment. If someone you loved gets dead because you start a gun fight don’t you think you would be a little bit at fault if you don’t also look at protecting other people on your boat from the consequences of your actions?If I really thought I was going to be in a gun battle at sea in my boat I wouldn’t just be talking about how big my gun had to be I’d be talking about what I could do to bullet proof areas in the boat where my wife and myself would be. Are we talking about protecting people on your boat here or are we talking about playing with guns? This post has had 60 replies and non of you "must have my gun aboard guys" out there even mentioned this subject. Kind of makes me think you are one track minded.

 

[Ron Mehringer]

Yes it is.

Overall I think most people have stayed on subject here and been mature enough to avoid the emotional responses usually seen with this topic.Why has no one discussed "bullet proofing" areas of the boat? Because those who choose to use a gun for protection usually understand the limitations. They're not looking to win a mini naval battle. In the home, a readily available gun will make you and your family safer. The data exists to clearly support that. It doesn't mean that you will always have the upper hand, it just improves your odds. However, I doubt there is enough data to know if it is beneficial on a boat, so each must decide for themself.As for talk about type and caliber of firearm, well that's just the harsh reality of personal protection. Some choose to plan for bad situations, others feel better by not having to think about it.Ron Mehringerh26 Hydro-Therapy

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Ron, your last post brings up a couple of question

(s)In law enforcement, home invasion is very rare. Are you referring to that crime when talking about all of the evidence that a gun in the home makes your family safer? The latest 'stats I saw on the subject of 'guns in the home that are readily available' show that each and every week in this country FIVE CHILDREN are killed with those 'safety devices'. But we are protecting our families you say? How? More thoughts; (back to boats) Consider the aftermath of a shooting on your boat. Especially a foreign country. You are in for the hassle of a lifetime if the local authorities find out. Gunshots ringing out in an anchorage are guaranteed to produce such a hassle. Getting on the radio to a net will produce nearly the same results. I know, but you're alive, right? STRONGLY CONSIDER, after calming down from the shock of such an event as the taking of a life, that you say nothing. If your boat has no damage (bullet holes), the dead bad guy is no longer aboard (no matter how that happens), no one was hurt on your boat and there is little likelihood of witnesses, get out of Dodge! Better yet don't enter Dodge in the first place and leave that damn gun at HOME!And that last comment about 'feeling better not thinking about it' was a little trite, don't you think? People who aren't gun freaks can plan for their family protection too. The best way to 'prevent' is don't put yourself in that position in the first place. Think about it.

 

[Tom Monroe]

Can you kill?

Somewhere early in this thread, buried in the middle of a post, is the operative question:DO YOU KNOW ... POSITIVELY KNOW ... THAT YOU CAN KILL SOMEONE IN SELF DEFENSE?I'm not asking that as a moralist, or supporter/non-supporter of gun laws. I'm asking that in a practical sense. If point a gun, you can expect the same in return. So if you can't kill someone, it is foolish to have one.I was a Viet Nam infantryman. The big question we all had was, can I kill when the time comes. I can tell you that there were many who simply could not, even in the heat of combat, even holding the gun, even when they were about to be shot themselves, pull the trigger. At the time, I found out that I could. I can also tell you that I know for certain that I would never be able to pull the trigger again. So I don't own and would never be able to carry a gun.I belive the professional lawmen on this thread will verify this ... that carrying a gun for self-defense is NOT just a matter of knowing gun safety, although that is important. You must be certain of your willingness to carry it to its ultimate conclusion. No testosterone. Whites of the eyes, up close and very personal, real people really dead.Sorry for the emotion here, but as someone who had to kill, I think this thread needs to get basic. As basic as life and death. Phil, if you want to pull this post, I understand.Tom MonroeCarlyle Lake

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Thanks Tom

For a LOT of things.

 

[tom]

Even if you don't carry a gun

people that do carry guns are protecting you!!! The threat of someone having a gun is a deterent. I was in the Phillipines and guns are outlawed. Criminals were breaking into peoples houses and tying up the owners while they stole stuff. Here in the US very few criminals will break in while you are at home. I knew one woman in Texas that that happend to. She was lucky. They took the phone off the hook and told her to stay in the bedroom. They took the TV, stereo etc that was easy and left. On the other hand another woman that I worked with had her mother murdered while she was living in an apartment in Houston. Face it women are easier prey than men for two reasons. 1. They are usually weaker and smaller than men. 2. They are less likely to own a gun. Women don't get upset with me. I know women who are stronger and better shots than me but usually they aren't.  I agree with many anti-gun people that the problems associated with guns can make them not worth the trouble. On the other hand if you can legally carry a gun and are not afraid to use it you have another option. One last anecdote about using a gun. In Elizabethton ,TN there was a robbery and the elderly man pulled a gun and stopped the robbery. They called the police. The robber started giving a sob story about his life and the poor old man felt sorry for him and laid down the gun. The robber grabbed it and shot the man,his wife and then escaped. The man died and the woman left for dead survived to tell the tale. This was in the local paper about 10 years ago. That's why I believe if the situation is so bad that you need a gun you should shoot to kill.

 

[Jo]

Explaining Freds statistics...

Fred is correct that 5 children (age 0-14) per week are killed with a firearm in the US. However, if you break down the statistics, 1 per week is a suicide, and 1 is an accident. The other 3 deaths per week are a result of assaults. Unfortunately, no statistics are kept on the number of lives saved by the use or possession of a firearm, so a true statistical comparison cannot be made. But... you can probably prevent an accidental firearm death by not having a gun. You might be able to prevent a suicide by not having a gun. But it is doubtful you can prevent the more likely cause of death, the assault, be not having a gun. In any case, your children are more likely to drown falling off your boat than to be killed by a firearm.

 

[Richard Marble]

Read about some real bad guys on the high seas

I would like to ask anyone out there that thinks its a good idea to carry a gun what they would have done to survive the encounter that I posted below. This just happened in August. These people wanted stuff, they didn't want to hurt anyone or they would have. If anyone on this site thinks they could have saved their "stuff" with a gun, and chances are if some of you had one you would have tried, this would have ended a lot different than it did.When these rare incidents happen this is what really is happening out there. If you have a gun and show it chances are you will not be as lucky as these people were. http://www.noonsite.com/Members/jimmy/R2002-09-06-1

 

[Richard Marble]

I almost forgot

Please anyone out there please tell me how your gun would have gotten you out of the hold up on my last post.

 

[Steve]

Right you are

Richard you are right... I thought you were going to ADVOCATE having a gun in that situation:"Five machine gun-wielding men boarded the ketch Spirit of Wychwood on the evening of 28 August 2002, and ransacked the 50 ft yacht"Ok, guys, take your best "shot", forgive the pun. Tell all of us how YOUR gun of choice would stop FIVE GUYS with machine guns! All that would do is get you and yours killed. There IS a time for bravado, but in a situation like that, discretion is the better part of valor.In a situation where you can see it coming, a flare gun, I still say, or something that would heave an explosive of some kind at the oncoming boat BEFORE they board you, armed to the teeth, might deter them. A personal firearm might help you in a situation in downtown Nassau, at night or in Mexico in the red light district. But the odds are that the COPS would find out that you are armed, FIRST and your arse would be in JAIL, WITHOUT arms, where the REAL criminals are!Steve

 

[Ron Mehringer]

Fred, et.al.

Fred, I'll start with the end. You're right, my comment was trite. Sorry, didn't realize it at the time. Regarding gun in the home stats, it takes considerable effort to get to the truth. This thread will go too far off topic if we start quoting sources. I just encourage you to look beyond biased mass media reports. Do children die because of gun accidents, yes. But that alone doesn't tell us what we need to know. You need to analyze whether or not even more innocent children, and people in general, would die if law abiding citizens didn't have guns. As a whole, an armed public results in lower crime and fewer innocent deaths.Can you kill? Good question. The military learned in WWII that most men couldn't. This creates a catch 22, since more and more we are also learning that the traditional advice of "do what the criminal says" is bad. It turns out people who put up a defense fair the best.There is no cure all, there will be situations where a gun couldn't help or makes things worse. There will also be situations where a gun can save the day. I've come to believe that the latter is more often true. Again, it's about statistics. The last thing you want to do is get anecdotal. I know people who won't wear a seatbelt because their friend died in a car accident as a result of the belt. Making a decision on that anecdotal evidence is silly since we know statistically that belts save lives.Will I carry a gun (if I ever get one) on a boat? Not likely. Will I get one for home. Probably.Ron Mehringerh26 Hydro-Therapy

 

[Robert]

An interesting phone call Sunday..

A very old friend called me on his cellphone on Sunday. He had just averted a "situation" while anchored just off of the west coast of Florida. He was approached by two fellas in a small boat who asked him if he had a radio; that they were having some engine trouble. He said he did, and would call for them. They asked if he had a cellphone instead, as they approached even closer, as a friend of theirs would give them a hand and save them some money. He said he did, and would make the call for them, and asked for their friends number. They didn't want to give out the number; said they'd rather come aboard and call for themselves. My friend simply picked his 12 ga up in one hand and held his cellphone in the other and said, "your call." They left with no apparent sign of engine trouble. You won't read about this incident, or many other similar incidents, but that doesn't mean they don't happen; they do.Firearms are a personal decision and responsibility that can't be taken lightly. I live aboard and own firearms for my personal protection. I regularly clean and inspect my weapons and have never experienced problems with corrosion, but do rotate my ammunition regularly. Whether I decide to take my firearms to the Bahamas or Mexican waters or not, will depend on the best information I can get on these areas at that time. I will not try to fend off "pirates" with AK47s, nor do I think others who've posted suggested they would. I have a beautiful and menacing titanium dive knife that I would refuse to take to a gun fight as well. Something about discretion being the better part of valor and all.

 

[Victor]

Is it legal, this is the question

Hello there,Well, besides a question would you do it, the real one I think is how to do it legally? I have no info on that, but I had a friend from Israel visiting me a month ago. And I was asking him the same questions. He told me that he is carrying his M16 while sailing. Sometimes he goes from Israel to Turkey. Turkey is very strict on everything. Remember Midnight Express? So what he is doing – he is declaring his rifle, and it is left locked and lock is sealed by an immigration officer. So if I go abroad with a gun on board, I would declare it at the customs. They might let you in, or they might not. They cannot arrest you for asking. This is my understanding. But anyway it is interesting to research, how international law is treating a situation when there is a weapon on board. I am going to ask a few attorneys. I would let you know if I find some rock solid information.

 

[Tim Bastian]

Gun statistics

I just saw this on a healthcare website.“Each year, nearly half a million children are treated in emergency rooms for bicycle-related injuries. About 250 of these children die from their injuries.”  An interesting statistic. This comes out to about 5 per week. Maybe we should outlaw bicycles too. I'm sure that if I looked into it I further I could find similar statistics for any number of things. Of course if we outlaw everything we could find statistics on we wouldn’t be able to do anything. Oh and by the way...Nationally over 4,000 people die each year due to boating and other water related incidents, including 1,003 children under the age of 15That's 19 per week folksTim BastianZephyr’s AuraHixson, TN

 

[Ed]

Stats are interesting, but...

What really matters is what you think is the correct thing to do to protect yourself, your crew and perhaps your posessions. There is no doubt that a firearm can deter a potential thief, but it can also incite a more violent response from that perpetrator.In some countries, you're allowed to keep your firearm(s) aboard. In others, the police will impound it till you leave. Others may confiscate it, and in some cases they may even throw you in jail. :^(I'm not claimming to know what's "right". We must each decide for ourselves what steps we would take to provide protection in the unlikely event we ever get boarded by pirates.BTW, the incident of boaters claiming engine trouble and wanting to use a cell-phone is a good example of how to deal with potential thieves. The display of a shotgun clearly worked to avert the situation, but I wonder if a flaregun or speargun would also have worked?~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~

 

[Tom S.]

Tim where is the heck are you getting your numbers

If you go to the US Coast guard Website on Boating Safety the number of boating fatalities in 2002 was 639. (The highest its ever been was 1998 with just over 800)http://www.uscgboating.org/*box That's whats wrong with the internet and bulletin boards such as this. Someone makes a statement and before you know it everyone else is repeating it and it becomes an "urban legend" (unless someone like me calls them on it)And its incorrect to compare gun to bicycles. For two reasons. One, statistics don't work the way you are trying to imply with them. First you have to see what the total ammount of participants in a study are and compare that to the percentage that actually have been impacted.For instance, if only 5 people have guns but 2 die because of them. But 10,000,000 people have bikes but 100 people die because of them. If you take the raw numbers the number of bicycle related deaths are 20 times that of firearms *yks (Horror of horrors !). But a rational and thinking person would understand that the total percentage of one is actually very low but the other is very high.A very low number of people actually get their arms chewed off by a great white shark while surfing off the great barrier reef, but the percentage in that area is still very high so it doesn't mean its still a good idea.Secondly comparing firearms to bicycling is pure FUD and intellectually dishonest. They are two different areas. One is a benign everyday event for the good of all that participate in it, and the other has very, very few benign aspects to it.If you really want to make a case with statistics then we should outlaw food. More people die of obesity related diseases than almost all others."According to statistics cited by the Surgeon General in December of 2001, 300,000 people in the United States die every year from illnesses caused or worsened by obesity. If this rising trend continues, obesity-related deaths may soon overtake tobacco as the chief cause of preventable deaths. Estimates indicate that obesity results in an economic cost of nearly $100 billion each year" *pophttp://www.dcmilitary.com/marines/hendersonhall/8_14/features/22582-1.htmlhttp://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/obesity/

 

[Jack]

Fun with numbers

Way off topic, however...David Letterman once said that, according to statistics, 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the population! (smile) Think about it.Just trying to calm things down a bit. Jacks/v FriendshipC350, #80

 

[Richard Marble]

Lets Face it

As far as protection goes in some situations a gun could help and in some situations a gun could get you killed. Therefore there is no advantage to having a gun on board or not having a gun on board as far as security goes. Now as far as getting you into trouble, a gun will get you in more trouble in maney states and countries than their worth.So get a couple of flare guns, get a spear gun, use your head and be careful. And unless you have a gun fetish and just have to have your shiney gun with you at all times no mater what, leave them at home.

 

[tom]

intelligence is the best defense

and it's best used to avoid situations. Gun safety is important to protect children from accidents. A gun or any weapon is only as good as the mind that controls it. Even a simple weapon such as a box cutter can be used to great effect. But flare guns??? I have a 12 gauge flare gun pistol. As to self defense it is probably near worthless. And in many places it is considered a gun. Maybe to startle someone for a moment so that I can get my machete. (now that would be a task,to dismember someone with a machete,talk about up close and personal) A wise person keeps his/her options open. A gun can be another option. On a dark night in a lonely anchorage I sleep better with a pistol. Will it protect me against 10 men with AK47 and Rocket propelled grenades...probably not. Will it protect me against a couple of fishermen who want to rape my wife ..maybe. Will a child shoot themselves with my pistol??? No way!!! it is locked up when kids are present.