Firearms on boats?

[Clyde]

This topic has been around for a long time

I agree with Fred, a shotgun is better than a rifle or handgun on a moving boat at sea. As Debra B. has stated whenever you enter another country's territorial waters you must declare your firearms or face prison time. You are not allowed to have access to your firearms as long as you are in their territorial waters, they confiscate your firearms and hold them until you are ready to leave their territorial waters. When you are anchored away from civilization in a foreign country you are unarmed, the only time you have access to your firearm is on the open seas and in US territorial waters. Most sailors who carry firearms, carry shotguns. A rifle is a long range weapon and a shotgun is a last resort weapon use to defend against being boarded. At sea on a rolling sailboat, it's impossible to aim at targets that are also moving, why get a rifle that can shoot 300 yards when you only hit sometime less than 100 yards. Shotgun shells will corrode less by the marine environment than rifle or handgun shells. If you're sailing within the territorial waters of the US, then a shotgun is the best protection against unwanted intruders boarding your sailboat. Winchester has a 12 gauge stainless steel shotgun Model 1300 Coastal Marine, it's marketed for Alaskan coastal wilderness areas where a sailor can run into four legged intruders wanting to board your sailboat, you can use it against two legged intruders also. Mossberg also has a shotgun designed for the Marine environment, the Mossberg Model 500 pump action Mariner. You can also get specialty shotgun ammo that will shoot flares and other incendiary devices.Check the links on some interesting articles; "Guns On-Board", some tips on carrying firearms aboard ship and "Pirates - Beware", a modern day pirate story off the Florida Keys.Fair Winds,ClydeWinchester 300 Coastal Marinehttp://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=512&type_id=908&cat=012CMossberg Model 500 Pump Action Marinerhttp://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htmGuns On-Boardhttp://dockwalk.com/issues/2001/february/guns1.shtmlPirates -Bewarehttp://www.onshoremagazine.com/oscx/edit/052203_editorial.htm

 

[wes]

Remember This!!

It is better to be trialed by twelve.than carried by six.I was in law enforcment for ten years and all the officers lived by this.I carry a 357mag 6'158gr silvertip..if they get close at all..this Will Shake There Boat!and turn out there lights.

 

[Bob Greenfield]

NRA

Without the Second Amendment, the First Amendment is useless at least here in the States.

 

[Ben]

In another country. . .

you must obey their laws. I don't have much experience traveling, but it's my understanding that when you are in any other country, it's basically their right to dole out whatever punishment they see fit when you break their laws. If you decide that you need a weapon with you, and think you can hide it from their officials, then go for it. But be prepared for what can happen if you are discovered to be in violation of the law. And for all you fellow U.S. residents, keep in mind that we are not the most popular people in the world right now.But beyond any legal issues, I would agree that a flare gun is the best starting point in a bad situation. Not because it is particularly effective as a weapon, but as a deterrent. It shows a willingness to defend yourself. If that doesn't work, a shotgun or pistol would be the best choice. If you need a gun, it probably won't be a long range shot. Besides, a robber/pirate probably won't identify themselves as such from a distance; and you can't start shooting before you've distinguished an oncoming boat as a threat instead of just a local fisherman. As Mike pointed out, bullets are hard to take back.For the record, I don't own a gun, but I will defend my right to do so (at least here in the U.S.). In a perfect world, no one would own a gun; I wish we could get rid of all of them. I hate violence of any kind. But the fact remains that we live in a world flooded with guns, and gun control laws only take away guns from law-abiding people. If we outlaw guns, will all the criminals turn theirs in, too?

 

[Ed]

99.99% safe.

One should keep the "very unlikely chance of being attacked" in perspective. Just how often does piracy occur, and what parts of the world does it occur the most?Perhaps, if you cruise in relatively "safe areas" and use good judgement (don't anchor alone), you shouldn't feel the need to carry a firearm.There are countries that do not allow firearms. They will likely impound them and perhaps confiscate them upon entry. IMO, hidding firearms from port of entry inspectors carries too much of a down-side risk or either a stint in (a not-so-nice) jail, and maybe confiscation of the boat.There are many legal weapons sailors can use to protect themselves. Flareguns, spearguns, marlin spikes, galley knives, and even a short length of anchor chain, etc. can all be carried aboard, and make decent self protection weapons.Lastly, if in the very unlikely event one gets boarded by pirates, there is a pretty good chance that they will be armed. It is possible that an armed boat-owner might be able to deter them. However, there's also a chance that the sight of a firearm might cause them to use more force than they originally planned.It's a hard call to make, and we must each decide what course of action to take if it were to occur. Fortunately, that chance is fairly remote (pardon the pun). :^(~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~

 

[Rick Ellis]

I do believe

Carrying a gun aboard a vessel is illegal in US waters (per US coast guard) unless you are the captain of the vessel. I know on merchant ships the guns are kept under lock and key. Now some may think that in the US we have a right to arm ourselves. Think of it like this, Beer is legal but not while boating.

 

[Steve]

Who are we kidding, Rambo?

Just a thought. Please keep in mind that I SUPPORT the second amendment... I am NOT a gun grabber, owning a few, myself.Now, for practical matters. What Fred said about lazy officials, giving people a hard time with stupid rules and bribes, etc. I have heard is true for a long time... doesn't sound like its gotten any better. And it is worse the farther out from formal civilization you go.Someone on this forum brought up the fact that PIRATES (who do this all the time) would tend to have something like AK-47s or the like. Maybe even an RPG or two for the threat... something BIG that can be seen from a long way off to intimidate people.Now, then, all you guys who have your .302 or whatever Bushmasters you THINK are potent... going up against FULLY AUTOMATIC AKs or even RPG... I would advise against it. I would tend to think that mere fiberglass would not be a heck of a lot of protection against an AK or perhaps .30 mm machine gun or bigger.So, unless someone accosts you in port, which is usually going to be when you are walking into town and you have your piece on your person (which is a BIG no-no in most areas outside the US... permit or not!), a weapon will remain in the weapons locker, collecting dust.Like I said, I think that one is more prone to come up with more ingenious devices with the equipment which is legal (mostly) and common on boats then to maintain dedicated weapons.Steve

 

[Steve]

Jeff:

Just out of curiosity... where did this incident, when you "discouraged" would be muggers, happen? Here? Or out of the country?Steve

 

[Steve]

Tom: We agree

You and I agree on just about everything in your last post. I do not advocate carry a gun aboard, even in the US, unless you are completely legal. In other words, I would NOT go cruising in NY. If I had a gun on board, I would not advertise it... If I had to use it... I would not worry about the consequences, as long as I was still breathing afterwards, since I would only pull it as a last resort.As far as a flare burning... I was not aware that it would merely bounce off a boat. First of all, you would aim it so that it FELL on someone's deck, say into a cockpit, where it would not be deflected immediately into the water. And yes, like a very bad shotgun, the accuracy stinks... I realize that. How far away was Nicole Kidman in "Dead Calm" from her target? Flares would be only a close range weapon, which is why you don't want to brandish a pop gun, WARNING the other people that you are POORLY armed (compared to them) before you can perhaps do MUCH BETTER with the flare gun. If you are fortunate enough to hit something flamable on board of their boat, the chaos will take care of any threat.Best way to avoid this? Go CRUISING IN GROUPS!Steve

 

[Fred Ficarra]

I wrote a reply to Tom S last night but it died

I'll try again. Tom said;"Also remember the laws of search and seizure on coastal waters are the same as on land." Oh how I wish that were true. Trust me, as a retired cop, when I tell you that we boaters are the ONLY AMERICANS WITHOUT FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS. Any rookie cop or park ranger or even the US Coast Guard in SOUTH AMERICA can board our boats and search any time, for as long as they want and not even have to justify it with probable cause. All of the above have happened to me. The courts allowed this when our country was young and they have never changed it. Boats were seen as a threat. When airplanes were invented, for some reason, they were given protection as are our homes. Go figure.  In my home waters, a liveaboard wacko even shot a deputy a few years ago because the deputy was doing what the wacko thought was a illegal search. The wacko was on a house boat. It wasn't sea worthy. Hell, it couldn't even move, but it floated and that made it fair game for a recreational search or a fishing expedition. If it had been on pilings, probable cause is needed to search. I don't know what happened to the wacko, I was out of the country.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

As Ed said, pirates are a very long shot

Sorry about the pun. That one I didn't intend. Anyway, let's keep a couple things in mind. First, piracy is reported to happen in areas of the world that have some common traits. They are lawless and impoverished. Do we honestly expect to go there?Second, BY FAR the greatest danger to boaters is the water we are on. That water we love becomes a danger because of ALCOHOL! Either on our boats or someone else's. And notice I didn't say drugs, the PROBLEM is alcohol. We should prohibit the stuff,,,Oh No, wait,,,

 

[Tom S.]

Sorry Fred I "miss-typed" what I meant

I went back and fixed it to mean what you explained. This dates back to "admirality laws" which pre-dates the US constitution and thus has been held up by the courts.two points though.I'm not sure that the USCG is in South America much (are they?) and I'm not sure just "any rookie cop or park ranger" can do a search without probable cause on non-tidal waters (inland lakes, etc).Plus if you are considered a live aboard and not under way or at your dock I think your 4th amendment rights are still honored, but the battles in court go on.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Tom, I kid you not,

I have photos of the US COAST GUARD boarding our boat in Trinidad. A half dozen men are in a US Coast Guard wailing type boat with two 'token' Trinys aboard. Venezuela is seen in the background. They came aboard without hesitation after asking if they could come aboard in the same breath. They were real nice until one of the guys said to another, "go get the drug kit". They didn't look for or ask to see safety stuff. When the drug kit was retrieved, on went the latex gloves and a wipe down of our dinning table followed. The man then packaged the wiping cloth with his gloves and said "We have a machine aboard our cutter that will tell us what we need to know". Away they went. Another problem with a search like this is 'chain of evidence'. Our boat had been stored at Peak's boat yard all season. During that time we received a call from them saying that the person we hired to 'watch over' our boat, was having parties aboard with her friends. We fired her. But we had no idea if our dinning table was used to do something like cocaine. They never came back to take us away so I guess not. As a coastal sailor and retired cop, I am not an expert on the finer points of inland search and seizure. Don't know what's going on there for sure. (If you folks want, I can post that picture of the imminent boarding. I know right where it's at)

 

[Tom S.]

Wow, thats an event !

How did it end? Did they just return back to the boat & say "have a nice day" ? Did they ever ask for any of your papers/documentation? Did they ask any questions on board like if you had firearms or anything illicit? Are all drugs illegal in Venezuala? They must have had their guns drawn, right?Did they follow you or flag you down? Were you anchored?I'd be interested in the picture?

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Tom, I just found it.

We were anchored. We were flying our flag so that gives license no matter what. It happened during our 1999 vacation, according to the time stamp. We weren't made to feel like criminals but my wife was scared. (of going to the slammer and she talks to cops everyday (911supervisor)) Remember that article in Cruising World a couple of years ago about the leper colony in Trinidad? That's where we were. All that can be seen in the picture is the boat and crew. The land in the background could be anywhere.

 

[Steve]

You are lucky

Fred:Under the drug laws, if you had a trace of marajuana or cocaine on your boat... it would have been sold at auction... at the very least and you would be taking the money you are now spending on fixing up the boat, on a good drug lawyer.The Coast Guard doesn't ask for "Thank You"'s when they save our collective arses, but they also don't say they are sorry when they are wrong!I could tell you another story about the Coast Guard but I don't want to carry bad tales and it had nothing to do with drugs...Steve

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Yea, Steve, don't I know it,,,

nm

 

[Steve]

They look like a happy group!

Look like they are going to a party! Did you invite them? ;DSteve

 

[Fred Ficarra]

I can't imagine NOT inviting them

what choice would I have? :{Please understand too, that I love the CG. I think that the war on drugs is corrupting their mission.But what the hay?, I put some more snaps on my web site. It's more fun.opps, there went my email beeper. Your not going to believe this,,, It was NRABLACKLIST.COM. It's a NRA haters site. They say the just went over 80K member. They are asking for a couple of bucks though.

 

[mrbill]

count the ammo!

Debra B seems to have the most useful info on this thread.I would also search the sailnet archives.in Bahammas you have to be very careful to count the ammo. a 38 bullet sells for 5 bucks on streets of nassau. thus if you declare 25 rounds, you better have 25 rounds when you leave.Had a friend declare a few long guns in nassau, officials took declarations, then said wheres ammo for the guns, he presented them, but the ammo was not in the declaration papers.. off to jail he went. after several thousand in atty fees, he received his guns back, and ammo. he said the bahammas officials wanted his vessel, and tried to trick him. SO, be careful.many countries keep weapons until you leave. pretty sure mexico is one.problem areas seem to be s america, on both oceans. rarely do I hear of problems in carribean.