Wondering how many people carry some form of defensive firearm on their boat, especially when going into areas that aren't completely safe. What are the legal ramifications of this, both in U.S. and foreign waters? Is the Mexican C.G. gonna throw you in jail if they find a shotgun on your boat? What about the USCG? Reading the article on self-reliance, I noticed that no one mentioned this (somewhat touchy) subject. While I certainly realize that there are people who are opposed to the possesion and use of firearms for personal defense or any other reason, I'm not one of them. (long time member of the N.R.A. and a certified Range Safety Officer) It just seems to me that if I'm going to keep a firearm in a quick-safe on the nightstand, the same precaution should be taken when I'm on my boat. First choice would be either a stainless high-cap semi-auto rifle (Ruger Mini-14?) or a short-barreled shotgun with a nickel or Teflon finish (Mossberg 500 or Remington 870?) Are there enough anti-gunners in the sailing world that I should keep this little tidbit of info to myself?
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Not Sure about the Ramifications
Don't really know all the legal ends and outs. But when sailing throughout the Pacific I always carried a Hand Rocket (sling shot) Only time I ever used it was in Truk Lagoon (1976). Didn't need to hit my target just got close and that was enough. Used some ball bearings I had scvenged for ammo.
Don't really know all the legal ends and outs. But when sailing throughout the Pacific I always carried a Hand Rocket (sling shot) Only time I ever used it was in Truk Lagoon (1976). Didn't need to hit my target just got close and that was enough. Used some ball bearings I had scvenged for ammo.
Guns - Good thread!
Excellent thread for conversation. I would be worried in the Carribean about this in particular, as I've heard some scary stories about "modern day pirates." I'd be interested to know the ins and outs of gun laws in these and other areas as well. One interesting "defense" I've heard about in the tropical waters is to keep carpet tacks on hand to keep would-be barefoot marauders at bay. Don't know 'bout anyone else, but I'd probably end up with them in my own butt. And how about pistol-style flare launchers? I'd think a well-placed flare could do significant damage. Bottom line, I'd hate to put my wife and kids at risk of harm that may be prevented by proper weaponry at sea. Will be interested to hear from anyone with experience with firearms or even incidents where they may have been needed.
Excellent thread for conversation. I would be worried in the Carribean about this in particular, as I've heard some scary stories about "modern day pirates." I'd be interested to know the ins and outs of gun laws in these and other areas as well. One interesting "defense" I've heard about in the tropical waters is to keep carpet tacks on hand to keep would-be barefoot marauders at bay. Don't know 'bout anyone else, but I'd probably end up with them in my own butt. And how about pistol-style flare launchers? I'd think a well-placed flare could do significant damage. Bottom line, I'd hate to put my wife and kids at risk of harm that may be prevented by proper weaponry at sea. Will be interested to hear from anyone with experience with firearms or even incidents where they may have been needed.
Jeff, I am a fully trained and expert firearms,,,
user. I am fully confident that I can make a split nano second decision on when to take a human life. I choose not to take a firearm on our cruise from Puget Sound to Trinidad and back. There are very few places in the world that a sailor would ever need a gun. A gun would almost always lead to some kind of undesired ramification. Like the sailboat that was tied up in a harbor in Mexico when we were there. The singlehand skippers' gun was discovered by the authorities and he was doing a two year jail sentence in a MEXICAN JAIL! His boat looked real sad. Back in 1972 the NRA sent a punch card survey packet to me. The questions were clearly slanted to their position. I couldn't help myself. (I was just a young guy, several guns, a hunter,,,)I wrote on one of the cards that the NRA was the greatest threat to my life. (as a police officer) I still feel that way. Oh, that was about the time I was sickened by, and quit using ANIMALS FOR TARGET PRACTICE! But a human bad guy, no problem. Wouldn't loose a minutes sleep.
user. I am fully confident that I can make a split nano second decision on when to take a human life. I choose not to take a firearm on our cruise from Puget Sound to Trinidad and back. There are very few places in the world that a sailor would ever need a gun. A gun would almost always lead to some kind of undesired ramification. Like the sailboat that was tied up in a harbor in Mexico when we were there. The singlehand skippers' gun was discovered by the authorities and he was doing a two year jail sentence in a MEXICAN JAIL! His boat looked real sad. Back in 1972 the NRA sent a punch card survey packet to me. The questions were clearly slanted to their position. I couldn't help myself. (I was just a young guy, several guns, a hunter,,,)I wrote on one of the cards that the NRA was the greatest threat to my life. (as a police officer) I still feel that way. Oh, that was about the time I was sickened by, and quit using ANIMALS FOR TARGET PRACTICE! But a human bad guy, no problem. Wouldn't loose a minutes sleep.
while down in St Pete
I went into a WalMart to purchase some flares for my flare gun. they were keep in the locked case with the ammo and I had to present ID and sign for them just as if purchasing 12ga shotgun shells. often thought that a double barrel 12ga would make a hell of a flare gun!
I went into a WalMart to purchase some flares for my flare gun. they were keep in the locked case with the ammo and I had to present ID and sign for them just as if purchasing 12ga shotgun shells. often thought that a double barrel 12ga would make a hell of a flare gun!
Recommend Avoiding Those Areas
Your best bet is just to avoid cruising those areas you're worried about. Besides, the salt air environment is going to be tough on everything. To comment on some of your points: 1. Nobody I know carries a firearm on their boat. I don't go to places that I know are unsafe. 2. Legal raminifications: There's going to be a lot of these. Most foreign countries I've read about in Latitude 38 prohibit firearms, including Canada and Mexico. 3. The biggest danger I see is in the good ol' USA and from large power boaters that buzz you close abeam and for these "people" something more like a cannon, 50mm, or torpedo would be more appropriate. Recommendation: Subscribe to Latitude 38, your local area magazine. They'll have probably the best current coverage you can find on this subject. See www.latitude38.com By the way, they are not advocates of guns, either. Bottom line: Carrying a gun on board overseas will probably get you in more trouble than it'll get you out of.
Your best bet is just to avoid cruising those areas you're worried about. Besides, the salt air environment is going to be tough on everything. To comment on some of your points: 1. Nobody I know carries a firearm on their boat. I don't go to places that I know are unsafe. 2. Legal raminifications: There's going to be a lot of these. Most foreign countries I've read about in Latitude 38 prohibit firearms, including Canada and Mexico. 3. The biggest danger I see is in the good ol' USA and from large power boaters that buzz you close abeam and for these "people" something more like a cannon, 50mm, or torpedo would be more appropriate. Recommendation: Subscribe to Latitude 38, your local area magazine. They'll have probably the best current coverage you can find on this subject. See www.latitude38.com By the way, they are not advocates of guns, either. Bottom line: Carrying a gun on board overseas will probably get you in more trouble than it'll get you out of.
Attachments
Don't Be Intimidated
Hello, If you feel the need to carry a firearm onboard, then carry one. Get yourself a cruising directory that explains the regulations for weapons in each country. "World Cruising Guide" covers this. Mini-14 in stainless with the composite stock is an excellent choice, along with some water proof ammo. I'd rather have a firearm on board and not need it, than need it and not have one! Don't forget. If pirates knew that everyone had firearms onboard there would be no piracy. Don't let the pacifists that have ruined the world, ruin yours Keep the Faith
Hello, If you feel the need to carry a firearm onboard, then carry one. Get yourself a cruising directory that explains the regulations for weapons in each country. "World Cruising Guide" covers this. Mini-14 in stainless with the composite stock is an excellent choice, along with some water proof ammo. I'd rather have a firearm on board and not need it, than need it and not have one! Don't forget. If pirates knew that everyone had firearms onboard there would be no piracy. Don't let the pacifists that have ruined the world, ruin yours Keep the Faith
shark rifle
What ever happened to the ship's shark rifle. Every cruising story I read as a kid (a long time ago) had something in it about the shark rifle and how it saved the day in some situation. You never hear about that anymore. Why not?
What ever happened to the ship's shark rifle. Every cruising story I read as a kid (a long time ago) had something in it about the shark rifle and how it saved the day in some situation. You never hear about that anymore. Why not?
Wait a minute, Rambo
This is a very interesting subject. I investigated it, to some extent when I lived in Florida and heard that there were pirates somehwere in South America and the natives in certain out-islands in the Bahamas, could be hostile (although I really never ran into any). Problem is the Second Amendment is NOT universal. AND, if you land in the pokey in some far flung port... like Mexico OR in the Bahamas, (even in Canada!) far away from the local American Embassy, you could sit for an awful long time before anyone ever heard from you again. Especially if your boat or something ON your boat was worth taking. (i.e. "confiscating"). I don't know too many statutes against a good dive knife or even a spear gun. And, when in doubt, Dan had just the formula... well placed magnesium flares at another boat can do an AWFUL lot of damage... from a distance. They sure as hell can DISCOURAGE hostile actions. Of course if the other boat is well armed, then there isn't a heck of a lot you can do - even if you do have something (light rifle, pistol, etc.), short of a 50 caliber machine gun... what kind of real damage are you going to do? You can't even HEAR the report of a .22 over engine noise between you and another boat. So much for the deterents. Practically speaking, keep your GUNS at home and be aware that there are other weapons that can come in handy. So much for my advice. Steve
This is a very interesting subject. I investigated it, to some extent when I lived in Florida and heard that there were pirates somehwere in South America and the natives in certain out-islands in the Bahamas, could be hostile (although I really never ran into any). Problem is the Second Amendment is NOT universal. AND, if you land in the pokey in some far flung port... like Mexico OR in the Bahamas, (even in Canada!) far away from the local American Embassy, you could sit for an awful long time before anyone ever heard from you again. Especially if your boat or something ON your boat was worth taking. (i.e. "confiscating"). I don't know too many statutes against a good dive knife or even a spear gun. And, when in doubt, Dan had just the formula... well placed magnesium flares at another boat can do an AWFUL lot of damage... from a distance. They sure as hell can DISCOURAGE hostile actions. Of course if the other boat is well armed, then there isn't a heck of a lot you can do - even if you do have something (light rifle, pistol, etc.), short of a 50 caliber machine gun... what kind of real damage are you going to do? You can't even HEAR the report of a .22 over engine noise between you and another boat. So much for the deterents. Practically speaking, keep your GUNS at home and be aware that there are other weapons that can come in handy. So much for my advice. Steve
not a simple question
there is a long thread on sailnet about firearms. I guess a first question would be , can you kill someone??? Some people have the mistaken idea that you can wave a gun and the bad guys run scared. In a remote location they may run scared to get their AK47 and buddies. I know a truck driver that had an interesting experience. He was waiting to unload in New Jersey about 3 am one morning. Two guys approached and pulled a knife and threatened to kill him if he didn't give them his wallet. He reached under his seat and pulled a pistol and told them to leave him alone. About 15 minutes later they returned with the police!!!! He was arrested and paid a large fine. The men who had tried to rob him just laughed.... He lost his job with the trucking company as they had a policy of no guns. Pointing a gun at another person is against the law most places. Remember that the only time it is self defense is when you fear for your life. You can't legally shoot someone for stealing your dingy. In fact if you catch someone in your bedroom at night stealing your wife's jewelry and shoot them it is murder unless you can reasonably claim that you were in fear for your life and had no options other than killing the thief. Strange world!!!
there is a long thread on sailnet about firearms. I guess a first question would be , can you kill someone??? Some people have the mistaken idea that you can wave a gun and the bad guys run scared. In a remote location they may run scared to get their AK47 and buddies. I know a truck driver that had an interesting experience. He was waiting to unload in New Jersey about 3 am one morning. Two guys approached and pulled a knife and threatened to kill him if he didn't give them his wallet. He reached under his seat and pulled a pistol and told them to leave him alone. About 15 minutes later they returned with the police!!!! He was arrested and paid a large fine. The men who had tried to rob him just laughed.... He lost his job with the trucking company as they had a policy of no guns. Pointing a gun at another person is against the law most places. Remember that the only time it is self defense is when you fear for your life. You can't legally shoot someone for stealing your dingy. In fact if you catch someone in your bedroom at night stealing your wife's jewelry and shoot them it is murder unless you can reasonably claim that you were in fear for your life and had no options other than killing the thief. Strange world!!!
Lets think about it.
I think John and Dan said it about right. Guns will get you in more trouble then they will ever get you out of. Instead of using a gun why not use your head. Flair guns, tacks, traveling in groups, avoiding areas that are known to be trouble spots are all good ideas. If in the end someone is coming aboard, does anyone think it would be a good idea to get in a gun fight in a plastic boat? Let’s think about this. Someone with a rifle is going to shoot at you and your going to shoot back while hiding behind about a couple of thin layers of fiberglass. Sounds to me like your chances would be just as good if you let them on board, gave them some stuff didn’t piss them off. NRA in my opinion is for young males and rednecks. Older people that think for themselves have a pretty low opinion of the NRA.
I think John and Dan said it about right. Guns will get you in more trouble then they will ever get you out of. Instead of using a gun why not use your head. Flair guns, tacks, traveling in groups, avoiding areas that are known to be trouble spots are all good ideas. If in the end someone is coming aboard, does anyone think it would be a good idea to get in a gun fight in a plastic boat? Let’s think about this. Someone with a rifle is going to shoot at you and your going to shoot back while hiding behind about a couple of thin layers of fiberglass. Sounds to me like your chances would be just as good if you let them on board, gave them some stuff didn’t piss them off. NRA in my opinion is for young males and rednecks. Older people that think for themselves have a pretty low opinion of the NRA.
Strange world
Like Tom said, it is a strange world. Very few simple answers to questions like this due to the confusing and manifold laws on the subject. IMHO, if you can legally carry a gun where you sail, then by all means do so. Despite the media's statements to the contrary, the statistical evidence shows that having a gun accessible will make you safer. In most cases just the brandishing of a gun will end the confrontation. The occassional accidental shootings make the news. The common self defense with gun rarely hits the headlines. If carrying is illegal in your sailing grounds, then I think it's probably best to avoid having a gun aboard. Why risk 2 years in a Mexican prison? FWIW, I don't own any firearms, but for the life of me can't figure out why, considering what I've learned from my research. Ron Mehringer h26 Hydro-Therapy
Like Tom said, it is a strange world. Very few simple answers to questions like this due to the confusing and manifold laws on the subject. IMHO, if you can legally carry a gun where you sail, then by all means do so. Despite the media's statements to the contrary, the statistical evidence shows that having a gun accessible will make you safer. In most cases just the brandishing of a gun will end the confrontation. The occassional accidental shootings make the news. The common self defense with gun rarely hits the headlines. If carrying is illegal in your sailing grounds, then I think it's probably best to avoid having a gun aboard. Why risk 2 years in a Mexican prison? FWIW, I don't own any firearms, but for the life of me can't figure out why, considering what I've learned from my research. Ron Mehringer h26 Hydro-Therapy
Richard,,,,,,,,
Not only do I agree on your opinion of the NRA, I think they should be listed as a terrorist organization.
Not only do I agree on your opinion of the NRA, I think they should be listed as a terrorist organization.
Yo Richard
All kidding aside, would a flare gun have any impact besides lighting up the perp? Just stun him? Knock him off his feet? So you could then dump overboard. Just wondering.
All kidding aside, would a flare gun have any impact besides lighting up the perp? Just stun him? Knock him off his feet? So you could then dump overboard. Just wondering.
Sir Pete Blake
Was shot and killed as "pirates" came aboard his vessel in South America. He was carrying his rifle in an atemp to defend the crew. Ater being shot the pirates left. The rest of the crew survived. Just some perspective for a man that was a world renowed sailor. Interesting article in Crusing World from last spring.
Was shot and killed as "pirates" came aboard his vessel in South America. He was carrying his rifle in an atemp to defend the crew. Ater being shot the pirates left. The rest of the crew survived. Just some perspective for a man that was a world renowed sailor. Interesting article in Crusing World from last spring.
Bill
Bill, I don't know what a flair gun would do. But I bet if someone practiced with one half as much as some people target practice with firearms they would know where to shoot, how close the person would have to be, what it would do and how many they would need.
Bill, I don't know what a flair gun would do. But I bet if someone practiced with one half as much as some people target practice with firearms they would know where to shoot, how close the person would have to be, what it would do and how many they would need.
who,what and where
Flare guns etc might sound good but then consider; Who, some young man without experience might be scared off. Several men with weapons will probably laugh at you. What do they want?? Your wife,your boat???? If they want your wife you probably won't give her away. If they want your fishing rod maybe. If they want your boat you may have a long swim. Where, if you are in a remote location and they are in a powerboat you can't run!!!! A flare gun might startle someone and give you time to go a short distance for help. But if you are a long way from help???? The same goes for a gun. If you pull a pistol on someone and then leave to a safe place no problem. But if you are in a remote location you may make them mad... With a AK47 they can stay 500 yds away and shoot at you with very little risk that you can hit them with a pistol. IMHO if you pull out the gun someone should die. Preferablly all of them so the survivors can't go and get all of the relatives of the person you killed. In other words use a gun as a last restort to save your life. I like the NRA and if you don't legally have the right to protect your life what other rights matter??? But it's incredibly stupid to think that having a gun aboard will make you safe anywhere anytime.
Flare guns etc might sound good but then consider; Who, some young man without experience might be scared off. Several men with weapons will probably laugh at you. What do they want?? Your wife,your boat???? If they want your wife you probably won't give her away. If they want your fishing rod maybe. If they want your boat you may have a long swim. Where, if you are in a remote location and they are in a powerboat you can't run!!!! A flare gun might startle someone and give you time to go a short distance for help. But if you are a long way from help???? The same goes for a gun. If you pull a pistol on someone and then leave to a safe place no problem. But if you are in a remote location you may make them mad... With a AK47 they can stay 500 yds away and shoot at you with very little risk that you can hit them with a pistol. IMHO if you pull out the gun someone should die. Preferablly all of them so the survivors can't go and get all of the relatives of the person you killed. In other words use a gun as a last restort to save your life. I like the NRA and if you don't legally have the right to protect your life what other rights matter??? But it's incredibly stupid to think that having a gun aboard will make you safe anywhere anytime.
Imagine what a flare gun will do!
Let's see, now... a magnesium flare is a VERY HOT device... probably punch a nice hole in fiberglass REAL FAST. A wooden boat might burn a little slower, but the fire would be rather hard to put out quickly... especially if people were not expecting it. And if you really had good aim, or luck, it would land not far from a fuel tank. It should DEFINITELY scare off the more flightly would-be marouders! However, keep in mind, that if you have a sail boat, not a POWER boat, getting out of there in a hurry might be somewhat hard... and in the tropics, these guys might swim fast, so this is ONLY A LAST RESORT... if someone is actually SHOOTING at you or is definitely a threat. Of course, this should all be done with the other crew memeber on the radio, attempting to summon help or at least report the incident. Much like honking a horn in a parking lot, a smoke flare shot straight up during the day is a means of attracting attention, i.e. other boats as witnesses, which would be very discouraging to would-be pirates. Perhaps, a baseball bat or two would be advised taking and putting all hands on deck with some sort of arms is a show of strength that might be discouraging, also. Outside of that, a prayer or two might seem in order... Steve
Let's see, now... a magnesium flare is a VERY HOT device... probably punch a nice hole in fiberglass REAL FAST. A wooden boat might burn a little slower, but the fire would be rather hard to put out quickly... especially if people were not expecting it. And if you really had good aim, or luck, it would land not far from a fuel tank. It should DEFINITELY scare off the more flightly would-be marouders! However, keep in mind, that if you have a sail boat, not a POWER boat, getting out of there in a hurry might be somewhat hard... and in the tropics, these guys might swim fast, so this is ONLY A LAST RESORT... if someone is actually SHOOTING at you or is definitely a threat. Of course, this should all be done with the other crew memeber on the radio, attempting to summon help or at least report the incident. Much like honking a horn in a parking lot, a smoke flare shot straight up during the day is a means of attracting attention, i.e. other boats as witnesses, which would be very discouraging to would-be pirates. Perhaps, a baseball bat or two would be advised taking and putting all hands on deck with some sort of arms is a show of strength that might be discouraging, also. Outside of that, a prayer or two might seem in order... Steve
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