fire extinguishers type / difference question

[Fred Ficarra]

Patrick,

While reading your post,,,it was as if I was proof reading MY writing. I could go on for hours.Gord, I'm not a scientist, but I am a BIG fan of the scientific method. And that method was never used in ozone depletion studies. NASA put up a satellite in '90 or so, and it showed a huge ozone 'hole' over Antarctica. Result? Within days, Margarete Thatcher and George Bush (1) organize and ram through the Montreal Protocol because it 'must be' CFCs causing the hole! HUH? Where is the 'scientific methodology'? Why is the hole over Antarctica and not where we have been releasing the stuff for seventy years? That's what Patrick meant by junk science. That and the flunky who wrote the first paper (probably at the behest of Dupont) on ozone depletion and the junk science papers written afterward. They were all junk 'me too' writing in order to get published or whatever they need to do in academia to get recognition. This opinion of mine didn't come from a whistle blower web site, I WATCHED IT HAPPENING! Gord, the current EPA spiel about ozone destruction has the chlorine atom breaking off of the compound and gobbling up ozone. They claim to have ACTUALLY found a chlorine atom in the stratosphere. Very bad, they say. But I point out that chlorine is a part of EVERY STAR in the Universe. It is natural, not invented by man! Why shouldn't an atom or two be found in our atmosphere? They don't answer me on that question.P.S. Gord when the EPA uses the acronym OPD, it's short for ozone depleting POTENTIAL, not (p)roduct.

 

[LG]

Halon does not remove Oxygen

It is a common misconception that halon "removes oxygen from given space." This is what C02 does, not halon. According to the Halon Alternative Research Corporation (www.harc.org): "Halons are low-toxicity, chemically stable compounds that have been used for fire and explosion protection throughout this century. Today, Halon 1211 (a liquid streaming agent) is used mainly in hand-held fire extinguishers and Halon 1301 (a gaseous agent) is used mainly in total flooding systems. These halons have proven to be extremely effective fire suppressants, which are clean (leave no residue) and remarkably safe for human exposure. Three things must come together at the same time to start a fire. The first ingredient is fuel (anything that can burn), the second is oxygen (normal breathing air is ample) and the last is an ignition source (high heat can cause a fire even without a spark or open flame). Traditionally, to stop a fire you need to remove one side of the triangle - the ignition, the fuel or the oxygen. Halon adds a fourth dimension to fire fighting - breaking the chain reaction. It stops the fuel, the ignition and the oxygen from dancing together by chemically reacting with them. Many people believe that halon displaces the air out of the area it is dispensed in. Wrong! Even for the toughest hazards, less than an 8% concentration by volume is required. There is still plenty of air to use in the evacuation process."The EPA recognizes that that halon remains the most effective extinguishing agent available, and it continues to allow its use despite its ozone depleting potential. All halon available now is recycled, so it is not an environmentally irresponsible choice. In addition, due to its effectiveness and relatively low toxicity, the FAA also continues to require halon extinguishers for use on commercial aircraft.Finally, there are no federal or state regulations prohibiting the buying, selling or use of halon extinguishers.

 

[patrick]

Sorry to ramble on but my point is mostly

that while fire extinguishing agents are probably not healthy to be around, they beat the alternative. I have two automatic halon units on my 37.5. One in the engine compartment and one in the main salon. I have a small halon hand activated unit in the galley. There are five other various colored powder units around the boat - one in each cabin, one in the galley, one in the main salon and one in the port lazarette with the many 25 mm flares - oops that is a different subject. Well maybe not - has anyone ever used a fire extinguisher as a weapon? Are the French or Canadian flares or fire extinguishers safer? I am thinking of adding one more on the starboard lazarette as well. I also have a large box of baking soda under the galley sink and will use either of the showers for a source of water spray or any of several buckets if needed. Suffice it to say that I will not ever hesitate to use any of these if there is a need.I tell guests and crew that halon is heavy and displaces air because that is the main concern for them and that they should be aware of that and get up and out asap if one of these halon devices goes off.I had the experience of having one of the automatic units go off accidentally once. It was the one in the engine compartment when someone went hard and fast up the stairs. They broke the starboard top of the engine compartment cover which supports the upper steps. (You other 37.5 owners might want to look at reinforcing that area if you haven't. It is a design flaw which is probably going to become a problem on all of the 37.5s if it hasn't already.) Anyway, the mechanical failure of the top shocked and caused the red extinguisher to go off. The engine stopped immediately and I got everyone up and out without any problem. Nobody died or even got cancer and after a few minutes of ventilation, the engine was restarted and we proceded without further ado.I periodically weigh the halon units myself and write the exact weight and date on a tag and put them back where they belong.The ozone controversy is a bit afield but suffice it to say that I do not find anything even close to credible about it. DO NOT LET THAT IDEA PREVENT YOU FROM USING A HALON UNIT IF YOU HAVE A FIRE!!Gord, I do not have a reference for the water theory but it was more convincing than anything else I have seen. The theoretical chemistry might be interesting but my wife won't let me do any other reading until I get some other things done around here. I might add that none of the ozone depletion / global warming / ice age / "silent spring" / oil shortage / food shortage and riot predictions / "midget alien dentist" abduction theories are credible enough to me to motivate me to research any of them any further even if I had permission. I have put them all in the same category. If you have any credible evidence for any of these ideas, that is what the first amendment is for.I have more immediate and interesting concerns at this time like finding people who would like to kill as many Christians and Jews and other infidels as they possibly can and make my wife live in a bean bag if they actually would let her live after cutting off my head. I will be getting to that right after I fix the deck. I better shut up now before I start ranting again.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Patrick, that one's a keeper

 

[John Nantz]

Scientific Method and "Junk Science"

Patrick, Stealth LG & Fred - Hoax? Give me a Break!The regulations with regard to CFCs and Halon are there because they have been shown to be necessary. I seriously doubt the governments of the USA, Great Britain, and other world governments would have supported CFC and Halon restrictions if they felt it really wasn't necessary. After all, it costs them more money - right?The picture at http://www.epa.gov/docs/ozone/science/hole/ shows the size of the current ozone hole and the page provides links to various aspects connected with ozone depletion. Following various links gets one to "WMO/UNEP Scientific Assessment of Ozone Depletion: 2002" at http://www.al.noaa.gov/WWWHD/pubdocs/Assessment02.html which "contains the most up-to-date understanding of ozone depletion and reflects the thinking of 275 international scientific experts". 275 scientists?!I really don't believe a group of scientists, scientific experts in their field, would stake their career and reputation on, and put their names to, something which would be classified as "junk science". As for "stealth LG's" comment that "All halon available now is recycled, so it is not an environmentally irresponsible choice", well, I would disagree because if it's used for something other that what is *really necessary* it is in effect being wasted. It takes time to develop alternatives to the current way of doing things and the sooner Halon and other CFCs stockpiles are depleted the more expensive it will be for everybody.I remember my dad telling me that "they" can't "prove" smoking causes cancer as he puffed away on his three or four packs a day. Well, this CFC/Halon thing sounds like the same old argument but with a few different words.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

John, I respect your opinion but,,,

CFCs and Halon are not tobacco. I haven't been to that first web site you posted the link for, but I'll bet a months,,hell, a years pay that the 'hole' they show is over the south pole. It's all they've got. That hole has been there for as long as the continents have been in their present location. It's bigger in the southern winter because there is little sunlight to create more ozone. It reaches up to Australia and is the reason the first humans to live there became some of the darkest people on Earth. When western man used Australia as a penal colony after it was first discovered, those 'prisoners' were mostly fair skinned as are their descendants. Result? The worlds highest skin cancer rate. White people shouldn't live there because of the hole. John, I could go on for hours,,,,Like those 275 scientist. A few must have jumped off the train-wreck and gotten real jobs! It used to be 350,,,Grrr

 

[Fred Ficarra]

John, I just got back from that first web site,

Have You been there? Wow. Just take the hook and you will be giving those people a career for life. The verbiage is mostly 'thought to be'. Are you a chemist? That site hopes you're not. The only point they try to make is with a formula. How many upper atmospheric scientist are out there to verify the math? If they are specialist in the field, wouldn't it be in their best interest to keep the field employed at least until they can retire? Almost the entire presentation asks the reader to believe hype that they can't prove. They say that nitric acid forms in cold air when the sun is gone due to winter and then say chlorine from CFCs show up and are responsible for the next step. That's when they flat out say that 'it is widely believed that man made CFCs deliver the nasty chlorine. No intro,,,no nothing! You're expected to take their word for it!That is the same crap that has been spewed for the last 15 years that I know of. Speaking of spew, that volcano in our back yard reminds me of another volcano. Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines. Remember when it blew. Many scientists, analyzing the ejecta, were reporting that it blew hundreds of times more chlorine into the upper atmosphere than Mankind has ever produced. NO HOLE formed. NASAs reaction. They just declared it a non event. GRRRR! I could go on for hours,,,

 

[Fred Ficarra]

And not once has the EPA explained how

CFCs get into the upper atmosphere in the first place. Remember, this gas is heavier than air. If you're looking for a leak(with an electronic detector), search below a fitting. I have been told by EPA people that the gas tumbles and trips in the wind and just works it's way up to the stratosphere. And then it kinda works its' way down to the south pole. That's when it gets tired of holding itself together and the chlorine jumps off the molecule. True! That was their line five years ago. If you believe it, is that enough reason to spend much more money on marine refrigeration systems? Grrrr, And not be able to service it? Grrrr,,, I could go on for hours.

 

[Rick Webb]

The White or the Red Ones With a Bracket are Fine

It is also a very good idea to mount them somwhere so that you can get to one if you need it.

 

[patrick]

John, it just doesn't pass the reality test

"The regulations with regard to CFCs and Halon are there because they have been shown to be necessary. I seriously doubt the governments of the USA, Great Britain, and other world governments would have supported CFC and Halon restrictions if they felt it really wasn't necessary. After all, it costs them more money - right?"And politicians never lie? NO! it gives them more power and control and costs you and I more in taxes and costs of refrigerants, products, etc. It adds a whole new layer of bureaucrats who produce nothing but paperwork for those who actually do work."I really don't believe a group of scientists, scientific experts in their field, would stake their career and reputation on, and put their names to, something which would be classified as "junk science". John, I cannot believe you are so niave as that. History is replete with examples of this. Salem witch trials, flat earth thinkers put Galileo in jail, etc. These guys created their careers and reputations by saying the sky is falling. Remember "Silent Spring", Paul Erlich and his population bomb theories just a few years ago? How many of those books were sold. Oil is always running out and "we only have ten more years of it if we are lucky" - in 1970."Well, this CFC/Halon thing sounds like the same old argument but with a few different words." It is nothing like the smoking argument. There is no way that a heavy molecular weight compound is going to get to the altitude necessary for the reaction to take place not to mention the contorted logic of the reaction steps themselves. It is like Fred says and just not logical. Sorry, William but I have to ask: Which kind of fire extinguisher makes the best weapon? Does Canada know about it?

 

[Will]

WOW

WOWSome of you guys must work for NASA.I reccomend you do not use Halon in closed quarters. Per my earlier post, my experience and or the experiences of two Airmen at RAF Bentwaters. Inhaling Halon landed them in the Intensive Care for three months. Something about removing the Halon Molicules from red blood cells.

 

[ruedi ross]

DiHydrogen Monoxide!!

dihydrogen monoxide is very effective and is used frequently to extinguish fires. However, if inhaled, it causes choking, convulsions, and death within a few minutes. It is also the byproduct of many evil manufacturing companies in the world. They are obviously only concerned with profits and are polluting our planet with the dumping of this horrible chemical. It should be outlawed immediately by every government on earth. My god, our boats are literally floating in this stuff! We will never live long enough to see the hole in the ozone if we don't do something to stop this horrible poisoning with dihydrogen monoxide!! Someone needs to call the EPA! The sky is falling! I agree , Fred, Grrrrr..

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Ah yes, H2O

I know it well.

 

[Gord May]

In support of DMHO

DMHO - Your All-Natural FriendPerhaps you've heard of it: a colorless, odorless liquid; a powerful coolant and solvent; an easily- synthesized compound which is used by industry, the military, commercial operations, and even private individuals.Yes, we are talking about hydrogen hydroxide, also known as dihydrogen monoxide, and we are here to tell you that what you've heard about DHMO is probably not the whole truth. There are forces out there, such as the Coalition to Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide, who would seek to legislate its use and availability, placing heavy limitations on it-- and eventually, eradicating it entirely.In the interest of fairness, we invite you to see their argument, and then we urge you to return here, to learn the truth. Their subversive agenda must not be allowed to prevail.Hydrogen hydroxide is beneficial!It has been shown that hydrogen hydroxide enhances the functionality, growth, and health of many forms of life-- including humans!-- and current research suggests that it has become an integral part of our planet's ecological balance.Hydrogen hydroxide is environmentally safe!Opponents of dihydrogen monoxide would have you believe that it is some kind of uber-toxin, that it wreaks caustic terror on anything it touches. This couldn't be farther from the truth; when handled properly, it enhances nature rather than destroys it, and even a worst-case scenario DHMO accident would be a trifle for the natural cycles of our world to handle.Hydrogen hydroxide is benign!The Coalition and others have popularized the label "dihydrogen monoxide" over the more chemically-accurate "hydrogen hydroxide" because they know how loaded the former name is. "Monoxide" has become synonymous with pollution, toxic gases, industrial waste-- and while hydrogen hydroxide is sometimes a factor in these problems facing our world today, it is rarely the dangerous element.Hydrogen hydroxide occurs in nature!To hear its naysayers' descriptions, one would think hydrogen hydroxide was solely the product of industrial technology; that it came from years of research in clandestine labs. This is not the case! Hydrogen hydroxide has been a part of nature longer than we have; what gives us the right to eliminate it?We need hydrogen hydroxide!Don't let an uneducated and terror-stricken mob of fanatics railroad you into giving up your right to choose!Support the use and distribution of hydrogen hydroxide in your neighborhood, city, state, and country!

 

[Gord May]

Ban DMHO

Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide - The Invisible Killer !!!Dihydrogen monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.Dihydrogen monoxide: * is also known as hydroxyl acid, and is the major component of acid rain. * contributes to the "greenhouse effect." * may cause severe burns. * contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape. * accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals. * may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes. * has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.Contamination Is Reaching Epidemic Proportions!Quantities of dihydrogen monoxide have been found in almost every stream, lake, and reservoir in America today. But the pollution is global, and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice. DHMO has caused millions of dollars of property damage in the midwest, and recently California.Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used: * as an industrial solvent and coolant. * in nuclear power plants. * in the production of styrofoam. * as a fire retardant. * in many forms of cruel animal research. * in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical. * as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing can be done to stop them because this practice is still legal. The impact on wildlife is extreme, and we cannot afford to ignore it any longer!The Horror Must Be Stopped!The American government has refused to ban the production, distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its "importance to the economic health of this nation." In fact, the navy and other military organizations are conducting experiments with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control and utilize it during warfare situations. Hundreds of military research facilities receive tons of it through a highly sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store large quantities for later use.It's Not Too Late!Act NOW to prevent further contamination. Find out more about this dangerous chemical. What you don't know can hurt you and others throughout the world. Send email to no_dhmo@circus.com, or a SASE to:Coalition to Ban DHMO211 Pearl St.Santa Cruz CA, 95060

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Alas, we too are addicted

We have a machine aboard that makes it

 

[Rick D]

Oh Gord!

I can see your post swirlling around the internet now... 'read this now and help stop this threat... pass this on to at least three friends', etc. Funny. Rick D.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

John, I warned you, I have hours to go,,,

Another example of the EPA power and control feeding frenzy. The Ozone Depletion Potential (ODP) of R134A is zero, Nada, zip! All other refrigerant gasses have some kind of positive number placing them under EPA control. And they don't tell you how the tests on gasses are run to assign an ODP. Anyway, back to 134A. As the story goes, this gas was invented in 1934 by Dupont. It was the first gas that year so it gets the 'A' designation. It wouldn't work with the oils in common use so it sat on the shelf for many years, but that's another story. The problem for the EPA is how do they keep their new found power over this industry, when this gas does not have the attributes that place it under their control, legally. Aha, declare it a 'global warmer'. They did. Same rules apply to it now as any other refrigerant. I didn't think the US was buying into the global warming theory with out more research. But who needs research when POWER is at stake! Grrrr, hours John, hours.

 

[Jeff M21319]

Gord, that was great!!

I couldn't agree more that all concerned citizens of the planet must band together to fight for the total elimination of this horrid chemical! We have allowed the government to go way too far in distributing this highly toxic compound! I have heard that in some local jurisdictions, the government has even constructed large in-ground uncovered storage areas for this deadly substance, and they actually encourage children to play in it!! It's an outrage!!It is my firm belief that the proliferation of this chemical is being foisted upon us unsuspecting humans by a secret coalition of 'dark forces' within the 'world government' working in conjunction with extra-terrestrial aliens in an effort to make humans 'addicted' to the stuff, at which point they will be able to take control of mankind by controlling the supply, distribution and quality of DHMO. Just look around. They have already established the needed infastructure to do exactly this! Even worse, there are many unsuspecting humans who are making a lot of money directly from this evil plan!! (if you know what to look for, these people are'nt hard to identify, as they often drive large trucks, (sometimes with strange designs and symbols painted on the doors) with a number of long, thin, shiny, copper 'tubes' affixed to a special apparatus on top of the truck. It is believed that these 'tubes' are part of a sophisticated alien communications system.) *yks Fortunately, there are a few people in highly placed corporate positions who are aware of this plan and are taking steps to stop it. They have discovered that one of the simplest methods for halting the distribution of DHMO is to introduce small quantities of another chemical, MTBE, into the supply, thus making it unusable. The government here in California has been doing this for a number of years and it seems to be working! This proves once and for all that the government in California has our best interests in mind and is doing all they can to protect us from the aliens!Jeff *5P.S. I could go on for hours, providing you with details of how many people die every year because of DHMO, but I need to go make some coffee and take a shower. ;D

 

[Bob B.]

Sailboat Owners Forum???

All Sailors:It seems that William opened a hornets nest by asking a couple of simple questions. Did he get more info than he needed? I don't think that he wanted to know all about the chemical soup that we live in.This posting has turned into a hilarious venting column.Some of you folks have a real talent for writing & no doubt can & do make a living at it.Good work sailors, & keep up the venting as we all need humour in our lives.I am waiting for someone to find a link to start in on Bush! (Just kidding).Happy saililng, Bob B.