"--external structure problem with internal ballast keel--bilge area."

["Selah"]

Hey all! Following dlochner's suggestion of possibly doing an endoscopy under the cabin sole, I decided to try to get some pictures first with my phone camera. As Dave posted, I believe when the boat was grounded, the shock caused cracks throughout. I have not seen any signs of any stringers. I am probably wrong on this. But following the idea of a concrete bottom as I was told of the ballast area
(see quidnon.blogspot.com/2015/01/concrete-slab-bottom.html?m=1), I am wondering if this is what I have. It looks like the concrete encased the lead keel area which was then encased in fiberglass. At the companionway entrance is the bilge pump-out sump (this had a handheld pump with hose to pump out any water from the sump, but I have purchased an electric bilge pump to install once repairs are made with backups placed in other sealed-off areas. But that is down the road). This sump area is a concrete makeup complete with cracks--some substantial. But what I did not know was that it seems concrete extended up to where the keel trunk joins the lead ballast which I have been in the process of re-bedding (I'll attach that picture also). And it looks like a heavy fiberglass cloth(?) was applied on top of the concrete which from the pictures indicates to me that it has delaminated(?). As far as supports under the floor, it appears to be some type of epoxy/silica mixture on the centerline in three spots--one just forward of the keel trunk where the portapotty would be located aft of the forward berth; one, about 2 feet forward of the sump and another just aft of the sump under and behind the companionway entrance. In addition, it appears that this bedding compound was placed on top of the fiberglass cloth(?)-- (I imagine similar to that Dave mentioned --1708 cloth--that Boat Works video was using on a Bertram foredeck) --for the length of the settees both Port and Starboard. Then it looks as though the interior of the cabin was lowered in place and pressed into the bedding compound. This is all supposition on my part. However, it looks like it may be more expedient to remove the floor of the cabin from just forward of the keel trunk where there is no concrete present and aft to the back of the cabin area under the companionway entrance leaving the settees in place as the storage areas under the bench seats are fiberglass (I previously removed the thru hulls and fiber-glassed over before having the exterior of the boat painted. A question I have is: should I repair the external area first because water drains out of the cockpit and then travels under the hull to the back of the keel? I am thinking it is getting into the keel area through the external damage and as it dries out, it leaves the bluish-gray residue stains on the back and both sides of the rear of the keel.
My next plans are: to check in to the endoscope as Dave has suggested; try to become a member of the Gloucester Sailors group dedicated to Harry Sindle designs as Joe mentioned in my previous post to look for further info on the construction from other owners of Lockley Newports which from my understanding became Gloucester; study more about concrete slab bottoms as with the Quidnon blog I referenced at the beginning of this post; and, to look for someone in my area who might have moisture reader; also, as Selah is on a trailer and I have a tent over the deck of the boat, I need to try to seal the stern area off from the cockpit drain forward to the front of the keel to redirect any water from rain storms and prevent any more water from traveling that route.
Thoughts and suggestions are all welcome. I know some will suggest getting rid of the boat. I knew from the start, this would be a big project and am dedicated to seeing it through--for me and the memory of my wife. Thanks everyone. (Have fun exploring these pictures! LOL)

 

[dlochner]

In addition, it appears that this bedding compound was placed on top of the fiberglass cloth(?)-- (I imagine similar to that Dave mentioned --1708 cloth--that Boat Works video was using on a Bertram foredeck) --for the length of the settees both Port and Starboard. Then it looks as though the interior of the cabin was lowered in place and pressed into the bedding compound.

The easy part first. The inner layer of fiberglass is roving. this is a really heavy fiberglass cloth that soaks up a lot of resin. Because it is a heavy cloth it builds up hull thickness quickly. Roving is very different from 1708 that Andy uses.

Fiberglass production boats are usually built in three or four big pieces. There is the hull, the deck, the cabin liner, and sometimes a head liner. Once all the parts are complete, the cabin liner is lowered into the hull and bonded in some way, in your case on piles of what is probably a polyester based bedding or fairing compound. Next the headliner is lowered in place (if it has one, not all boats do) and finally the deck is lowered and secured to the hull.

The cabin liner is more than just a pretty face, it is structural and helps to keep the boat from folding up. Once the rig is tensioned, the tension tries to drive the mast down and to the keel while pulling the sides of the boat together along with pulling the bow towards the stern. To visualize this have some one hold a piece of paper and then take a pencil and push down on the paper, you'll see how the paper depresses as the pencil pressure increases. Same thing happens to a sailboat. The seats and that long row of bedding compound help to keep the bow and apart. The floor and bulkheads keep the sides apart. As you dig deeper into this project realize that everything has to go back in. The floor cross section looks pretty thick and looks to have a balsa core. That suggests to me it does more then provide a place to walk or rest your feet.

The cabin liner and the way it is bedded helps to reduce hull flex. Large expanses of fiberglass will flex, it is often referred to as oil canning. As the boat moves through waves and chop, the hull will want to flex, longitudinal structures stiffen the hull and prevent or minimize flexing.

I need to try to seal the stern area off from the cockpit drain forward to the front of the keel to redirect any water from rain storms and prevent any more water from traveling that route.

Can you just raise the front of the trailer so water drains aft?

A question I have is: should I repair the external area first because water drains out of the cockpit and then travels under the hull to the back of the keel? I am thinking it is getting into the keel area through the external damage and as it dries out, it leaves the bluish-gray residue stains on the back and both sides of the rear of the keel.

So long as the boat is out of the water, I would approach this from the inside out. That will give more time to dry out the keel area. Although, I would get the bottom paint off the keel to see what it looks like.

Good Luck!

 

[Displacesailor]

The picture that you marked up look exactly as I would have expected.
The cracked concrete and lead was not suppose to have any structural strength so just keep them from freezing and they can get wet and still be okay. That said Dry is better.
Except for the external shot I did not SEE any problems, I don't know what the cable goes to, so I would remove All bottom paint and then see where you are. It is general better to work from the outside, remove problem material there first. Your hull may have been constructed in 2 parts for ease of construction and then glass together when the ballast was added.

Remember most parts have a given shape for a reason and you need to understand that first before you change anything.
Do not add interior baffles or wall just to keep water from getting into the bilge. Water trapped in a lining is much worse than water in the bilge that can be pumped out easily.

 

["Selah"]

Hey Dave.
Thank you for the extensive info and the way you broke it down for me. You gave me much info that I have been wanting but really did not know how to ask because I didn't know what to ask. I am learning that pictures help everyone a great deal when they are trying to respond to what I am seeing. So, thank you! I am wondering now if I need to take the floor out as it is structural with the cabin liner. As I think back to when my wife and I first started looking at getting the boat, I remember that four days in a row I checked the boat at the sail club where it had been tied up to the dock, and the sump each day had about 4 inches of water. My son and I used a hand pump that was on the boat to siphon the water out into the lake. We would come back the next afternoon and check it and the water level was staying in the sump at the same level but not in the bilge area under the floor. I am wondering if the damage to the keel had already occurred in a previous grounding due to the patch job that had been roughly put in place all before the boat ended up this time on its side on an island and the owner just didn't want to deal with it or pay the salvage fee. My thoughts then, after reviewing your responses, are to not jump into removing the floor part which is part of the cabin liner. I just ordered an endoscope from Amazon and should receive it Thursday. With that piece of equipment, hopefully, I will get a much better take of the bilge under the entire cabin liner. Incidentally, there was no headliner. There was vinyl material glued to the underside of the deck and carpet glued over the fiber glass on the sides above the bench seats, forward berth, and both sides of the companionway above the cabin liner. Hopefully, this weekend, I will be able to use the endoscope and post more detailed pictures of the bilge area.
As far as tilting the trailer so that the water will run out of the cockpit and not drain/run down to the back of the keel, that is very doable. The only problem is that in an attempt to level out the cabin while I worked on the inside, my son helped me to put the trailer on blocks to obtain the level inside the cabin--I wanted everything to be as level as possible so that my measurements would be accurate. Anyway, if you think I need to make the external keel area priority, I can do this and then when that is repaired, then put the trailer back on blocks. As far as taking the bottom paint off the keel to expose damage, I had originally sanded all the bottom paint off and had it repainted with Interlux Primer and Baltoplate bottom paint after the patch was removed and repaired by the person who painted the Primer. Selah has not been in the water since that was done. However I have seen several places where the Baltoplate has turned loose from the Primer. Another person who does boat painting told me that the Baltoplate turned loose because it was not applied within a short period of time after the Primer was rolled on. In fact, I know that it was probably 2 months before the Baltoplate was applied. Therefore, removing the bottom paint around the keel will not be a problem because I plan to have the entire bottom redone before she goes in the water.
Thank you for your help and everyone else who is following. I appreciate this very much.
James

 

["Selah"]

Thank you Displacesailor. I am looking at only sealing areas like the storage areas under the bench seats that were cracked but will still put in place drains to the bilge area from the storage areas. I don't want to seal up anything that will keep water out of the bilge because I believe if I have water in the bilge that would indicate that water is coming in some place most probably needs attention. Which brings to question, is it normal for there to be a small amount of water in the sump area when the boat is in the water? Or, should the sump for the most part be dry? Hence my reason for purchasing a bilge pump with a float switch (of course, float switches come with their own set of problems that I have been reading about in Practical Sailor). Please keep the questions and input coming, I really appreciate everyone's feedback.
James

 

[Displacesailor]

A fiberglass boat seating at the dock should have a dry bilge that doesn't require a bilge pump. This assumes that you have no leaking windows, deck fittings or shaft stuffing box. A dry bilge is a must if you want to not have a mold problem inside the boat.
Leaks underway are generally harder to find and correct and for those you want an automatic bilge pump. In old boats finding and sealing all the leaks is a bigger problem.
I would try for a dry bilge at the dock or put a dehumidifier that drains into a sink that drains overboard and live with leaks that require a pump and a battery charger to control the water (moisture and mold ) in the boat.
I race a Catalina 22 that leaks so badly I park it on a slope, raise the bow, put a drain in the stern and just let water pour out when it rains. The boat would sink if I moored it in a regular slip without shore power.

 

["Selah"]

Good info Displacesailor. I had not thought about the dehumidifier solution, but a great idea. All ports and hatches are being reworked with new lexan and rebedded. I found a great and easy silicone remover through Practical Sailor called "Remove." I had tried everything including acetone, heat gun, Krud Cutter, Goof-off, etc., but nothing worked. With "Remove," the silicone came off completely within 30 minutes of application to each of the port frames and hatch cover --something I had spent hours on with none or little success. When my late wife and I salvaged the boat, there was a major mold and mildew problem. After stripping everything --carpet and vinyl headliner from the interior-- the entire interior including the bilge area was sprayed with a 4-1 clorox solution mixed with water. After sitting for 10-15 minutes, it was all spray rinsed using a pressure washer. After 2-3 days the 4-1 solution was again applied and rinsed with a pressure washer. Also, I wore an enclosed rainsuit with goggles and respirator. I then ran fans inside for 24 hours. I have two tarps, one as a tent over the boat and another that is over the deck. I also have solar fans for air circulation inside the boat when the boat is closed up. But I will get a dehumifier in the near future. I'm hoping that I will be able to fix the external part of the keel that is damaged and resolve the issue of water in the sump area as was evident before we bought her. Thanks again for your input.
James

 

[dlochner]

. After stripping everything --carpet and vinyl headliner from the interior-- the entire interior including the bilge area was sprayed with a 4-1 clorox solution mixed with water. After sitting for 10-15 minutes, it was all spray rinsed using a pressure washer.

Go back to PS and look up Formula B mold killer. It is a borax based solution that kills and keeps mold from returning. Bleach does work, however, it can damage many surfaces and once it dries is is no longer effective.

Searching for leaking ports and fittings can be a daunting task! There are so many places that water can enter.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Boats were built in Gloucester, VA and I had the pleasure knowing Harry. However, I do not think lead is encapsulated in the keel section. Use of lead came later much later but with the cost of lead, many mfgs. went back to cast iron.
Not sure if this is your boat or not based on original posting. I think more photos are needed particularly close up. Is the boat out of the water.

 

["Selah"]

Thanks Mr Dave. I will definitely keep that on hand. Haven't had the problem since that initial time but with my emphysema, I'm very careful for toxins like mold and other odors/particulates. Thank you for the recommendation.
James

 

["Selah"]

Thanks Mr Condon. I'll post some of the pictures from around the base of the keel trunk before I began rebedding that area. I did go back through all the paper work and found the original
LN -23 SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICES .AND SPECIFICATIONS.
It is dated August 15, 1980.
I will copy to my computer and post tonight for anyone following this refit. And again thank you all who are helping me and raising questions and making suggestions -- it truly means a lot to me. As I stated in earlier posts, this is a learning process for a larger boat that I plan and hope to cruise and live aboard. And, I want to make sure for my own piece of mind that when I sell it for a larger boat, I can do so confidently, and with the new owner satisfied, too.
Thank you, James

 

["Selah"]

Hello everyone. This afternoon, I was looking through the documents that I was given upon taking possession of Selah and some documents that my late wife had found and downloaded. She had located the brochure including LN -23 SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICES AND SPECIFICATIONS. It is dated August 15, 1980.
I hope this is helpful to those who are following the refit of my Lockley Newport. If any of you know of anyone who owned or still sails the LN-23 I would love to talk with them. In the meantime, I have been trying to join the Gloucester Sailor's forum that Joe Blizzard mentioned in an earlier posting but not having success. I am doing something wrong, I'm sure, but will keep trying. Also, Dave (dlochner) suggested an endoscope and the amazon site. It came in this afternoon and am looking forward to having a good look at the bilge area under the cabin liner this weekend. I'll post some of those asap. In addition, Mr. Dave C., the boat was built in 1981 according to documentation and BIN #. And, yes, the boat has been out of the water since we purchased it in 2006, but due to many issues that occurred in those years, the refit was delayed but I am moving on it now (please see initial posting for "Selah" when I joined on Jan. 13, 2019 in Ask All Sailors. Have a good night, all.
Thank you for your input and encouragement.
James

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

I was surprised lead for ballast was used back then contrary to what Harry said. I stand corrected. Emphysema is serious and I am fully aware what mold, etc. can do to you. Once I cleaned out a very moldy boat and paid the price for nearly two months during the winter between shows. I think a phone call between us might be suggested. Send me a private email via forum email as I have a lot of questions trying to help you.

 

["Selah"]

Hey Dave, tried two times to send you a private message. I think I did it correctly but unsure if you received either one. When you have a chance, let me know as I would like to speak with you about the questions you have. Thankyou for your interest.
James