Opinions and popularity of electric propulsion are quickly changing. I'm guessing present value is lower than it will be in a few years
Electric re-sale value?
- Thread starter Hogdriver
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I’ve been puzzled why hydrogen fuel cell didn’t surge along with solar and wind. I recall reading about hydrogen as a game changer decades ago. I think some of it was the perception that it is a dangerous “fuel” to store, no existing distribution network etc. Flaws yes but really no more severe or daunting than other alternatives.
Here’s a company that has managed to “hang in there”.
www.ballard.com
Here’s a company that has managed to “hang in there”.
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Unlock the power of fuel cells. Learn about the technology that is reshaping energy production and transportation.
www.ballard.com
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I think the original cause of a continuing bad rap sheet for Hydrogen stems way back to the 1930s.
There was a great enthusiasm for the idea of giant balloons in the early 1900s. In WW1 the Germans attempted to terrorise the UK with high altitude bombing by Zeppelin fleets. My mother was born in 1914 and her earliest memory, probably at the age of 2 or 3, was being taken outside the house to view the great ships passing above Leicester in the English Midlands. They flew too high for the fighters of the day, but their bombing did little except to anger the British and motivate them (curious that this error was repeated in WW2). After the war there was something of a rush among European powers to build them, mainly Britain, and then Germany with the rise of Hitler and German rearmament. Hydrogen, of course, was the cheapest lighter than air gas to put in them.
Unfortunately there were two great disasters that essentially put paid both to airships and to the reputation of Hydrogen. If you care to Google R101 and Hindenburg you can read about both these giant airships. The British R101 crashed in France on her maiden voyage in 1930, and the Hindenburg crashed in full view of thousands over New Jersey in 1937. News footage of the latter showed the world awful scenes of crew and passengers jumping to their death rather than burning in the conflagration. Both crashes were fiery, and Hydrogen was deemed to be dangerously explosive from that time. However, the ships were both constructed of flammable materials, carried large quantities of fuel, and had ready ignition sources in their engines.
In the late 50s and early 60s, experiments funded by the US Air Force into the explosive risks associated with Hydrogen found that the gas itself produced little blast and a near instantaneous complete combustion, posing little risk compared, for instance, to gasoline. See this interesting video:
There was a great enthusiasm for the idea of giant balloons in the early 1900s. In WW1 the Germans attempted to terrorise the UK with high altitude bombing by Zeppelin fleets. My mother was born in 1914 and her earliest memory, probably at the age of 2 or 3, was being taken outside the house to view the great ships passing above Leicester in the English Midlands. They flew too high for the fighters of the day, but their bombing did little except to anger the British and motivate them (curious that this error was repeated in WW2). After the war there was something of a rush among European powers to build them, mainly Britain, and then Germany with the rise of Hitler and German rearmament. Hydrogen, of course, was the cheapest lighter than air gas to put in them.
Unfortunately there were two great disasters that essentially put paid both to airships and to the reputation of Hydrogen. If you care to Google R101 and Hindenburg you can read about both these giant airships. The British R101 crashed in France on her maiden voyage in 1930, and the Hindenburg crashed in full view of thousands over New Jersey in 1937. News footage of the latter showed the world awful scenes of crew and passengers jumping to their death rather than burning in the conflagration. Both crashes were fiery, and Hydrogen was deemed to be dangerously explosive from that time. However, the ships were both constructed of flammable materials, carried large quantities of fuel, and had ready ignition sources in their engines.
In the late 50s and early 60s, experiments funded by the US Air Force into the explosive risks associated with Hydrogen found that the gas itself produced little blast and a near instantaneous complete combustion, posing little risk compared, for instance, to gasoline. See this interesting video:
The big problem with hydrogen fuel cells is that the majority of the hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels. The technologies to produce hydrogen from biomass and other sources are still a long way from being really viable as a major replacement to fossil fuels.
dj
dj
Your point is well taken, but I think this question comes up nearly everytime electric-motive power is talked about.
Electric Car Myth Buster — Well-To-Wheel Emissions | CleanTechnica
"When either a conventional car or an electric car reaches the end of its useful life, both require about the same amount of energy to dispose of. But electric car batteries can be repurposed for other non-automotive uses like residential and commercial electrical storage, or the materials inside can be recycled for new batteries or other uses, which means the batteries will continue to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide going into the atmosphere long after the car they started out powering is no longer on the road. It’s been said that 95-99% of the material in EV batteries can be recycled."
-Will (Dragonfly)
I do like the idea of electric power I have some reservations though. How long do these batteries last. From my limited knowledge I assume all batteries eventually die / won't hold a charge.
I'm a huge Tesla fan (car not the scientist although I don't do respect him) just wondering how long will those batteries last. Cost of replacement I understand is prohibitive. Sorry if I got away from electric power in boats.
I'm a huge Tesla fan (car not the scientist although I don't do respect him) just wondering how long will those batteries last. Cost of replacement I understand is prohibitive. Sorry if I got away from electric power in boats.
All indications are they last a lot longer than expected. My biggest problem at this point is range, and the high end long range Tesla is just way too expensive.
dj
Will, I really don't buy that glib claim. Many components of non-electric cars are recycled. The materials composing batteries are very hard to separate, other than by incineration, leading to the release of the hydrocarbon-based products (plastics primarily) that are major components. And, it will happen, and is happening already, in jurisdictions where our lovely environmental regulations simply don't exist. |
I just read the article pasted. Will's just quoting the facts it states.
A good question though is where do the myths about ICE vs EV carbon comparisons come from?
I have an idea
: I have to own a work truck for my biz. I'm usually the last buyer of these vehicles as I only need them short hauling tools and supplies.My last truck I found a deal on an F 150 I couldn't pass up. America's Favorite truck, how can you miss?
I haven't owned a full sized PU in a long time,...and I forgot why! This hog, no matter how light I am on the accelerator, and with a 6 cylinder, around town gets just slightly over 10 MPG!!! And that's carrying no more than me!
I figure I'm doing the right thing for the environment though. I am brutal on these old trucks, drive them for very few miles, and quickly, through my lack of care, send them to the crusher! I figure this as a mercy killing.
This is 2005 tech. We ought to be embarrassed turning out these things! It's a nice ride though,....
i believe the range of most electric motors is quite limited. you cannot recharge your batteries efficiently while offshore except by running a gen or using solar. the range is seriously limited by the battery power in your bank. how are you going to outrun a storm if your batteries are weak ? on a large boat, the limited range of an electric motor alone would be a total deal killer. disclosure: i have a small 2 hp kicker on my 16' row boat and recharging its 135 amp battery is a royal pain.
This is interesting as they remove CO2 and water from the air. Out of the blue: making fuel from air and sunlight And you thought they only made Cuckoo Clocks
[QUOTE="TomY, post: 1616456, member: 102661"
This is 2005 tech. We ought to be embarrassed turning out these things! It's a nice ride though,....
[/QUOTE]
So there is actually some pretty significant improvement in the current crop of trucks vs a 2005 that has been beat to hell and back in Maine! I do recall the buy a bucket keep it a few years and dump it process when I lived in Bath, ME. My 2014 Ram 1500, 4x4 crew cab, 6'4" bed gets 19-20 mpg on road trips, and around town for me I see 16-17 mpg, which considering the size and V8 motor I think is pretty amazing. That said, I actually put my $100 down for a CyberTruck when they came out, it is unique for sure but if the mid priced truck can meet the range he said and the price stays about what was presented, it really isn't that different then replacing a V8 truck I have now. Again this is my assessment or my needs and requirements only, sort of like this subject of boats.
This is 2005 tech. We ought to be embarrassed turning out these things! It's a nice ride though,....
[/QUOTE]
So there is actually some pretty significant improvement in the current crop of trucks vs a 2005 that has been beat to hell and back in Maine! I do recall the buy a bucket keep it a few years and dump it process when I lived in Bath, ME. My 2014 Ram 1500, 4x4 crew cab, 6'4" bed gets 19-20 mpg on road trips, and around town for me I see 16-17 mpg, which considering the size and V8 motor I think is pretty amazing. That said, I actually put my $100 down for a CyberTruck when they came out, it is unique for sure but if the mid priced truck can meet the range he said and the price stays about what was presented, it really isn't that different then replacing a V8 truck I have now. Again this is my assessment or my needs and requirements only, sort of like this subject of boats.
This thread has really taken on a life of it's own.
Why is it everytime someone has a negative thing to say about EP they always refer to lee shores, outrunning a storm, can't get to my destination, etc. We are talking about sailboats after all.
From my point of view, if this is an issue you shouldn't be putting yourself in that position to begin with whether your boat has an ICE or is EP. I remember someone in this group saying along time ago, if you can't sail off a lee shore you have no business being there in the first place. Just saying...
Glad ya'll weren't at Kitty Hawk a long time ago..
Why is it everytime someone has a negative thing to say about EP they always refer to lee shores, outrunning a storm, can't get to my destination, etc. We are talking about sailboats after all.
From my point of view, if this is an issue you shouldn't be putting yourself in that position to begin with whether your boat has an ICE or is EP. I remember someone in this group saying along time ago, if you can't sail off a lee shore you have no business being there in the first place. Just saying...
Glad ya'll weren't at Kitty Hawk a long time ago..
Informative video. I held the idea that hydrogen was at least as “dangerous” as gasoline probably based on all of the Hindenburg info I had been exposed to.
Apparently not!!!!
Thanks for the enlightenment!
While it may be much more expensive to buy good light weight batteries that will give you the range an ICE typically provides, I think it is possible to come close. In addition, if you find yourself stranded in remote parts of the world and your energy supply is running low, you can not drill, extract and refine your own oil. You can, however tilt your solar panels towards the Sun and setup your wind turbine, and before you know it (well, maybe in a couple of days or so), have yourself refueled and ready for the next few hundred miles. If you have to motor greater distances than from channel to slip, an expanded solar array that folds out like a bimini, could keep you going for quite aways.
I'm not saying it's cheap or easy, just that the tech is availible now.
-Will (Dragonfly)
I'm curious what the impact of the ENTIRE supply chain for electric is versus combustion engines. I heard a rumor that the Prius emits tons of emissions because the engine never fully warms up. Like I said, it's a rumor.
I believe @Maine Sail said his Prius was on the first set of batteries when he sold it at 300k
There is an interesting aspect of EP vs electric car in regards 'range anxiety'. I get it with the car, but a sailors view of range is completely subjective.
Years ago I spent a few hours with Lin and Larry Pardey in Camden Harbor on and off their (engineless) boat. I watched them sail out of the harbor which took them a considerable amount of time compared to the rest of the boats which all powered out. We all know their 'range' in their sailboat, was way beyond the rest of us.
Contrast that with the average coastal boat. Many have a set mental clock which ticks loudly when boat speed drops below 4 knots (my guess is 4 kt is the magic number for 'cruisers'). So they power the vast majority of miles they cover. LarryDH I recall once coined the term as 'speed floor' I think.
Then there is another mental clock ticking on most coastal cruisers that the Pardey's never had: refrigeration. Second only to maintaining the 4 knot boat speed, the engine is needed to charge batteries on nearly a daily rate on many boats.
Now enter a EP option for some sailors (range is not about the boat). I bet Larry Pardey would have loved it! Truth is (after talking to him) I think he was baffled by mechanical stuff (at that time anyway). The simplicity of an EP system that included solar charging may have had him(and Lynn), thinking.
And now, add the apparent ability to also charge refrigeration, -not on demand or schedule- but what's available and the system is capable of.
Are engineless sailors a thing of the past? Not at all, they're always been among us in limited numbers. In this era of energy consciousness the idea is not likely to die out.
When you sail across oceans, your boat rarely has enough fossil fuel capacity to make much of a difference in the your passage. Long distance sailors might find appeal in a slower speed in the doldrums that is powered by the sun, for added range.
For most of us, our schedule, charging needs are better filled by onboard ICE systems, same as our cars.
Ironically, ICE systems may cause range anxiety in a few EV proponents.
Yes, but in the context of the original question when I purchased that car, at slightly over 100K, the value of it was essentially used toilet paper when compared to any non-hybrid Toyota. The Prius was one of the most reliable vehicles I owned (owned two of them) but the general public typically won’t touch one with over 80K on the ODO..
A few years ago a broker friend ran numbers on electric conversion boat sales for a customer of ours considering going EP. Avg days on market was 6X longer than comparable diesel sister-ships and average sale price was 30-40% lower compared to equivalent diesel powered sister-ships.