Electric harbors are coming.

[Scott T-Bird]

Swapping out propane bottles is practical because the bottle is merely a vessel. New one … old one, it rarely makes a difference. It doesn't wear out - and we're talking about a gas grill here, folks, not an expensive, personal vehicle. The relativity of economy isn't even close.

A car battery or even an electric outboard battery isn't even close for comparison. It's a chemical devise that has a service life that is dependent upon it's condition … and it is really expensive! Who in their right mind is going to accept a substitute when you take your brand new battery to the "filling" station and go away with another battery that you can't depend upon? Can you see the owner of a new Tesla accepting an old battery that might have been in service for the past 5 years? I can't see that happening any time soon. Maybe some day there will be a system worked out, but I think we're a long way from that. I'm pretty sure that nobody is going to chase that idea down. Let's talk reality, folks!

 

[jviss]

Swapping out propane bottles is practical because the bottle is merely a vessel. New one … old one, it rarely makes a difference. It doesn't wear out - and we're talking about a gas grill here, folks, not an expensive, personal vehicle. The relativity of economy isn't even close.

A car battery or even an electric outboard battery isn't even close for comparison. It's a chemical devise that has a service life that is dependent upon it's condition … and it is really expensive! Who in their right mind is going to accept a substitute when you take your brand new battery to the "filling" station and go away with another battery that you can't depend upon? Can you see the owner of a new Tesla accepting an old battery that might have been in service for the past 5 years? I can't see that happening any time soon. Maybe some day there will be a system worked out, but I think we're a long way from that. I'm pretty sure that nobody is going to chase that idea down. Let's talk reality, folks!

Elon Musk demonstrated a battery swap in a Model S, but they have since abandoned that concept. The new model 3 can't do a quick battery swap.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

Can you see the owner of a new Tesla accepting an old battery that might have been in service for the past 5 years? I

Years ago I bought a new bbq grill with new tank. Brought it to get filled but they only did tank swaps. I didn’t know to check the date stamp on the full tank but the next year I brought it back for a refill and they told me the tank was out of date and could not be exchanged. Needless to say - I was a bit steamed about that.

 

[SycloneDriver]

I used to own a plug-in-hybrid. It could travel a little over 20 miles on just the batteries. I could plug it in at home and get to work and back as long as I didn't drive too aggressively. It was very quiet, had boat loads of torque, would do over 80 mph on just the batteries. I often used it as an electric car, but I didn't have to.

I don't understand all the talk about street parking. I can't even remember the last time I parked on the street overnight. With a standard slow charger I could "fill" my car at home overnight. A tank of gasoline lasted a long time, because I mostly used electric power. I really liked not having to stop at a fuel station very often.

I have also had several diesel VWs. Loved the 700 mile range and the torque. I even made several hundred gallons of bio-diesel over several years. I managed to avoid the filling stations for long stretches of time. Good cars.

I will admit that an all electric car will not work for everyone. I would have to have at least 200 mile range to get to my boat and back. But an all electric car would work really well for many people. Plug it in at night and drive it during the day, then repeat.

An all electric boat on a lake would probably work fine as long as you could plug it into shore power when you weren't sailing. I don't see electric boats circling a charge point waiting to plug in. Long range, open ocean cruising just doesn't seem practical.

Batteries will get better but don't expect miracles.

As far as better for the environment, I don't know and I don't concern myself with that.

About the grid, that will probably need some work.

I'm one of those oddballs that like the feeling of getting something for free/cheep. Driving and electric provides that feeling, so does sailing.

Full disclosure: I drive a sports car and a diesel truck now.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Can you see the owner of a new Tesla accepting an old battery that might have been in service for the past 5 years?

I think this is achievable in the long term but it would take a culture change. You'd need to separate the ownership of the car (or outboard, or boat, or whatever) from the battery. You buy the car, and the dealer includes the first battery. Then the exchange shops all comply with standards on minimum battery health when providing exchanges. With the right marketing and standards enforcement the public might see it just like gas - the dealer gives you the first tank, and when that is exhausted you go and buy standardized quality 87, 89, or 93 octane. It might even boost resale values of EV's, since you're not buying a battery any older than in a new car. And if the resale value is better the initial purchase is more marketable.

 

[smokey73]

I think this is achievable in the long term but it would take a culture change. You'd need to separate the ownership of the car (or outboard, or boat, or whatever) from the battery. You buy the car, and the dealer includes the first battery. Then the exchange shops all comply with standards on minimum battery health when providing exchanges. With the right marketing and standards enforcement the public might see it just like gas - the dealer gives you the first tank, and when that is exhausted you go and buy standardized quality 87, 89, or 93 octane. It might even boost resale values of EV's, since you're not buying a battery any older than in a new car. And if the resale value is better the initial purchase is more marketable.

Sorry for the long post and ignore if it you want too

Interesting, but I don't see the equivalancy with buying gas or diesel. I maintain my car and am responsible for its proper efficiency and, hence, how far it will go on a full tank. Believe me, if I go from 400 miles on a tank to 300 miles I will check my car or how I drove it and if its the fuel, the gas station will catch h%$L from me. (I keep track of every gallon put in my cars and track the mpg to tell if there is something going wrong with my car) With social media it is easy to give negative feedback or reviews and with the current culture of reviews a number of negative reviews will probably not be favorable for that station.

Even with your scenario of complying with standards on minimum battery health when providing exchanges there is no way to reasonably assure a minimum range for the exchanged battery unless the "standard on minumum health" is drastically reduced from a new battery expected health such that there is a "buffer" or "gravy" in the standard so customers won't be stranded or angered by the "supposedly new" battery they got. Your statement that "since you're not butying a battery any older than a new car" is true for buying but with the current ranges after a day or two that new battery is discharged and you into the "replacement cycle." From then on, to get the same performance of a new battery every replacement battery would have to be a new battery (not likely or even economically feasable) or the manufacturer estimate for EV range would have to be lowered dramatically to account for aging batteries such that every new battery is actually specified as if it were a "used battery"

When I buy my gas or diesel, it is "new every time." That is, I expect to get a given mpg and thus range depending on how I am driving it. I can check my GPS and see where the next station is located when I am getting to my reserve and decide when to fill up. If the station is crowded, I can go to the one across the street or at the next exit if I haven't taken it down too far (or my wife drove the car last ) In your scenario the only "new" battery I get is when I drive off the lot. After that its always a used battery and a battery "used" by someone else, not me. I can just envision our Interstates littered with stopped cars waiting for a tow truck or "mobile battery exchange truck" or conversely, battery exchange stations every few miles. Picture it!

In the video posted they say a quick charge to get "some charge" back into the battery may be in as little time as it takes to go into the station and get your cup of Starbucks. What if I don't want to stop for that break but just want to get on my way. And that is only a "quick charge" to get me some short distance. What if I'm on a 650 mile trip? How oftenn will I have to stop for a "quick charge" before I get to my destination?

I also need someone to convice me that the overall environmental impact from an all electric EV system will be beneficial considering all the things that, when on a small scale sound good, but when taken to the extreme might be problemmatic. Things like extracting the necessary minerals to make the large "reserve" of batteries needed for an exchange system, the power grid add on necessary to charge all the batteries, (with solar and wind you'll need an adequate reserve excess capacity to handle downtime of the source- or are you prepared to dam up more rivers or resurrect the nuclear power industry) the toxic chemicals needed to produce the batteries and recycle the batteries when they are no longer servicable, the impact of the mineral extraction, and many more potential pitfalls. I have always taught my kids,there is a solution to every problem - you may not like the solution, but there is a solution. Yes that's a little simpllified but you get the point.

Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a place for EV personal transportation but I'm with Jviss, I don't see it replacing dinosaurs any time soon! Now when we get the flux capacitors perfected, that is a different story All you old Fa%^ts like me will remember the phrase "electricity so cheap you won't have to meter it!" What happened to that dream?

 

[jviss]

I don't understand all the talk about street parking.

Maybe because you've never lived in a city? For many millions, that's the only place they have to park.

 

[Daveinet]

The only way for a battery exchange to work would be for Tesla to retain ownership of all batteries. The owner of the car would merely rent the batteries, rather than actually own them. You might be able to buy a brand new car, but the battery would be rented, and may not be new. You would be renting a minimum useful range. Most people are making payments on cars anyway, so making a battery payment would be no different. It would increase the viability for electric, but still would not replace carbon fueled vehicles.

 

[jviss]

The only way for a battery exchange to work would be for Tesla to retain ownership of all batteries. The owner of the car would merely rent the batteries, rather than actually own them. You might be able to buy a brand new car, but the battery would be rented, and may not be new. You would be renting a minimum useful range. Most people are making payments on cars anyway, so making a battery payment would be no different. It would increase the viability for electric, but still would not replace carbon fueled vehicles.

I think that's close to it, but consider the way the compressed gas business works, where consumers don't own the tanks, they pay "demurrage" for the time they hold the tank beyond some agreed time, and the gas providers actually own the tanks, or even a third party. As long as you use the energy in a certain time you wouldn't be charged for the use of the pack, just the energy. If you hold it too long, you get a charge for that extra time.

The railway business works similarly, where individual investors can finance freight cars and throw them into the tail system, and receive regular rent payments for their use.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

I think that's close to it, but consider the way the compressed gas business works, where consumers don't own the tanks, they pay "demurrage" for the time they hold the tank beyond some agreed time, and the gas providers actually own the tanks, or even a third party. As long as you use the energy in a certain time you wouldn't be charged for the use of the pack, just the energy. If you hold it too long, you get a charge for that extra time.

The railway business works similarly, where individual investors can finance freight cars and throw them into the tail system, and receive regular rent payments for their use.

Did you read my post above? Electric harbors are coming.
Imagine something like that happening with a $15k+ battery.... there are many reasons a battery might be left in a car longer than the permitted time for exchange credit. Illness, accident damage, unexpected travel, or government action, to name a few possibilities.

 

[jviss]

Something that just occurred to me about battery exchange: theft. Gangs were going around here a couple of years ago cutting off people's catalytic converters. Can you imagine EV battery theft?

 

[jviss]

Did you read my post above?

Larry, I read everything you write.

 

[Davidasailor26]

The only way for a battery exchange to work would be for Tesla to retain ownership of all batteries. The owner of the car would merely rent the batteries, rather than actually own them. You might be able to buy a brand new car, but the battery would be rented, and may not be new. You would be renting a minimum useful range.

I agree. That's one way to make the model work. Then you just need to figure out the economics based on the usable battery cycles and cost of the battery.

Something that just occurred to me about battery exchange: theft. Gangs were going around here a couple of years ago cutting off people's catalytic converters. Can you imagine EV battery theft?

I know. It would be terrible if thieves could just walk up to your car and take all the energy out. How could we live in such a way?

(Hint - gas siphoning doesn't seem to be stopping petroleum powered vehicles, you just need the right controls in place)

 

[jviss]

(Hint - gas siphoning doesn't seem to be stopping petroleum powered vehicles, you just need the right controls in place)

Gas is only worth about $3/gallon. An EV battery could be worth $15,000. Get it?

 

[Davidasailor26]

Gas is only worth about $3/gallon. An EV battery could be worth $15,000. Get it?

And wheels are worth about $1000 each, engines several thousand, the car about $40000. Each one is protected with its own appropriate controls, whether keyed lug nuts, door locks, ignition lockouts, or police patrols. In your own example of the catalytic converters you said it was a problem a couple years ago, but presumably isn't still an issue, and the Auto industry didn't just say "oh, those are being stolen, we'll need to stop selling cars with them.". The controls evolved and mitigated the risk.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see myself in an EV or electric boat any time soon, as I don't see it fitting in the type of driving I do. But I think some reasons are more compelling objections than others.

 

[jviss]

And wheels are worth about $1000 each, engines several thousand, the car about $40000. Each one is protected with its own appropriate controls, whether keyed lug nuts, door locks, ignition lockouts, or police patrols. In your own example of the catalytic converters you said it was a problem a couple years ago, but presumably isn't still an issue, and the Auto industry didn't just say "oh, those are being stolen, we'll need to stop selling cars with them.". The controls evolved and mitigated the risk.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see myself in an EV or electric boat any time soon, as I don't see it fitting in the type of driving I do. But I think some reasons are more compelling objections than others.

I wasn't saying that was a reason to not sell EVs, I was just saying.

 

[SycloneDriver]

For all the millions that only have street parking, I'm sure there are many millions more that park at a house or an apartment where power is available. If electricity isn't easily available don't buy an EV, simple.

Just about anywhere I've ever parked there was a public utility nearby. Almost every street has a power line running down it. Most parking lots have electric lights. All business seem to have power. A charge point can simply be a standard 110 volt outlet, although 110 volt charging is very slow. It's not like you have to build a gas station at every parking space.

I've plugged in at: home, my parents, friends house, work, grocery store (high powered charging station too), motel, my old marina (thanks Michael).

I'll shift gears a little bit. What about CGN cars? Do you dislike them too? I have gas at my house, private well & utility. We haven't used the well in years, it's running out and is a pain to deal with. I could fuel up a CNG car at home or a fuel point, but when I did the math it looked less appealing. At home I would have to pay for the electricity to compress the gas and I would have to purchase the compressor$. If I ran out I couldn't just pull in to a gas station and fill up or even add just a little to get me home. With an EV it's easy to add a little more juice, although it can be painfully slow.

I don't understand all the hate. Don't like EV, buy a gas/diesel vehicle.

 

[SycloneDriver]

Earlier in this discussion someone mentioned a manufacture that would be all EV in 2022.
I seem to remember hearing a story on the radio about a year ago stating that in 5 years Volvo would only be offering electric cars. That appears to be incorrect. Every vehicle will be a hybrid, not EV.

 

[smokey73]

I don't understand all the hate. Don't like EV, buy a gas/diesel vehicle.

It's not "hate" its just a discussion of pros and cons, drawbacks and advantages, etc. In fact there are situations where an EV car makes perfect sense, apparently one is your situation. Fine. For the most part, the cities/suburbia are the prime market for an all EV right now and in the near future since trips will typically be very short to short and it may not need to be recharged for several days worth of trips. My comments are related to ALL EV powered, not hybrids. Hybrids make more sense to me (at least right now) and we might even be able to go to a small diesel generator powering the drivetrain through a generator and using batteries when the charging is not needed - more like a diesel-electric locomotive but with batteries too.

If the infrastructure was there for CNG it would be a great alternative and I don't see why it isn't. As with EV, the infrastrucure just isn't there nationwide. However, CNG is in use for vehicles that are routinely used "in a limited area" like delivery vans and trucks where the vehicle is expected to be able to get back to the CNG station easily. If the infrastructure can be built it has some very intriguing positives. Almost any current gas powered vehicle (old or new) can be easily converted to burn CNG and they can even be set up to run on CNG or gas with the flip of a switch. Talk about options! CNG is still a fossil fuel so there is that drawback but it is considerably cleaner burning that gas or diesel and maybe less poluting than Electric depending on where the electricity power comes from (think coal fired power plants). I"d love to convert to CNG but, like EV, for my situation the availability (CNG) and the range (CNG and EV) aren't suitable for my situation unless I want to have to have two different cars for different purposes.

 

[jviss]

For all the millions that only have street parking, I'm sure there are many millions more that park at a house or an apartment where power is available. If electricity isn't easily available don't buy an EV, simple.

Just about anywhere I've ever parked there was a public utility nearby. Almost every street has a power line running down it. Most parking lots have electric lights. All business seem to have power. A charge point can simply be a standard 110 volt outlet, although 110 volt charging is very slow. It's not like you have to build a gas station at every parking space.

I've plugged in at: home, my parents, friends house, work, grocery store (high powered charging station too), motel, my old marina (thanks Michael).

I'll shift gears a little bit. What about CGN cars? Do you dislike them too? I have gas at my house, private well & utility. We haven't used the well in years, it's running out and is a pain to deal with. I could fuel up a CNG car at home or a fuel point, but when I did the math it looked less appealing. At home I would have to pay for the electricity to compress the gas and I would have to purchase the compressor$. If I ran out I couldn't just pull in to a gas station and fill up or even add just a little to get me home. With an EV it's easy to add a little more juice, although it can be painfully slow.

I don't understand all the hate. Don't like EV, buy a gas/diesel vehicle.

It's not hate, at all, I don't know where you are getting that from. I am just making the case that EVs are not going to take over anytime soon.

One really must to go to a big city some time, and try to imagine how all of those parked cars might plug in. (I grew up in the Bronx.) It would help to have some knowledge of engineering, power distribution. But more the point is that providing even the most meager charging facilities are parking spots in major cities is simply not going to work. When they fail, you fail. It would not be cheap (the infrastructure). And like everything else in cities, it is subject to theft and vandalism. I mean, NYC even had to come up with left hand thread light bulbs in the subways years ago to stop people form stealing them to use in their homes. You have no idea! You'll go out in the morning, smack your forehead and say "where's my cord?" Or, "that bastard unplugged me and plugged himself in." Not to mention the infrastructure required to actually charge people for the power, unless you think it would somehow be free.

CNG - again, I don't dislike them. But until CNG fueling stations are ubiquitous, you have many of the same problems as EVs.

I'd appreciate an intelligent discussion, I don't appreciate it when people making it personal by ascribing irrational motives to me, like "hate" and "dislike." Try to make our case without making it a personal attack.