Drop-In LiFePO4 Batteries – Be an Educated Consumer

jviss · Mar 11, 2022

Thank you!

JamesG161 · Mar 11, 2022

My key issue is Lead/Acid batteries are about 85% recycled components.

Lithium Batteries not so much, as of Today.

Jim...

PS: I waited to chime in until now.
PSS: Warp drives on Star Trek used Di-Lithium Crystals, not possible on Earth today.

Hayden Watson · Mar 11, 2022

Good article. Only part way through it but will finish it later. I just needed to comment on the 50-buck reward for a photo of an LFP fire. I am on a forum where someone posted photos of fire damage to his bus conversion motorhome after installing a DIY two 16s 48-volt battery packs made with 280ah cells. The photos were very impressive with lots of stuff melted to the ground. He smelled the smoke and went outside and saw fire under his bus. He grabbed his fire extinguisher and a water hose and was able to put the fire out.
The cause? He had built is "compression and protection" system out of galvanized steel Unistrut all encased in a sheet metal box that was in direct contact with the unprotected sides of the blue plastic film that covers the aluminum cells. Surprisingly that is not what caused the fire. What actually caused the fire was that his primary positive cell stud vibrated loose and touched the Unistrut which was grounded to the bus frame and vibration wore a hole in the insulation creating a dead short to chassis. To compound this, the main negative 4-O wire was also in contact with the chasses so when the first huge current spike hit, fused the guts of the negative contactor and left it in contact with the chassis. There he had a 280ah 48v battery with no fuse and 4-O wire to help the angry pixies on their way directly connected to the steel chassis.
The totally amazing thing was that even after that mega short and many of the cells distorted beyond recognition. I was able to show voltage on every cell except for the one that the 4-O wire was connected to. On that one, he was unable to test it because he could not find the positive terminal because it was gone. He stated that this was the 3rd shorting incident on this set of cells, so he had practice in dealing with the arc-flash!
I guess this means that I do not get the $50 but it made for some very interesting photos.

Davidasailor26 · Mar 11, 2022

Hayden Watson said:
What actually caused the fire was that his primary positive 4-O wire from the bank was up against the bus frame and vibration wore a hole in the insulation creating a dead short to the battery with no fuse and 4-O wire to help the angry pixies on their way.

Having seen the effects of a lead acid battery accidentally shorted to a prop shaft I think it’s safe to say he would have had an equally exciting day with any chemistry.

I’ve started reading the article and am looking forward to continuing it later. Many thanks to @Maine Sail for his dedication to the community!

JamesG161 · Mar 11, 2022

If you must use LiFePO batts look at here...
Inverter Charger | Freedom XC PRO Marine Inverter/Charger | Xantrex

Jim...

PS: My new one does LiFePO too

Hayden Watson · Mar 11, 2022

I wrote my account of the "fire" incident in post #4 from memory of a post read 6-months ago because I could not find it again. I did some more searching and found it here. I got a few of the details incorrect so I went back and edited post #4 to correct the errors. I cannot say much good about the build, but it does demonstrate the inherent safety of LFP. In spite of all that abuse and poor decisions, He did not burn down his bus and nobody got hurt (except for him where his wallet is still smoking.

Mark Maulden · Mar 11, 2022

Thank you to Maine for writing/finishing this article. I initially read it on his FB site as I am due for new batts this year. This is an excellent article as are all the others. I knew I wasn’t going to build a new battery from cells and then add a BMS. So I priced a drop in Lithionics 12V 500ah battery. Or somewhere close to 500 ah. It’s approximately the same capacity as my four golf carts. The price of this battery caused a few gulps and crossed eyes.. My current alternator/regulator would work as well as the shore power charger. I would have to add a B-B charger to my start battery (FLA). Then I need to add an alternator protection module for when the batts are fully charged and things are disconnected. Then some wiring/fusing changes. Am I mossing anything? This is about as much as I can remember pricing out. Everybody is on the band wagon about LiFPO4. Maine sure speaks high regards to LiPO4. Some ~ $8k later, I have a new state of the art battery system with me doing the labor. Oh I should check with insurance company first as I’m doing the labor. Well, I do not think this is going to happen. I am 69+ and my FLAs (4x6V GCU)have lasted me 10 years over past decades. I buy them right off the production line in Seattle. I figure I have one more battery change (maybe 2) in my sailing “career” and four of them are ~ $700. It is just not cost effective at this time.

JamesG161 · Mar 12, 2022

Maine Sail said:
We had stopped installing Xantrex years ago due to on-going reliability and customer support issues

They must have listened.

Too long of a story, but they helped me, by phone, with my new one.
Their new Xanbus Controller is ethernet based and Stackable, if needed.
Full Battery monitor with Amp flows.

Everything was "Plug and Play".

The toughest part for me was their Battery Temperature monitor, which was new on my boat.
Jim...

PS: Mine was installed by a ABYC electrician.

PSS: They sell LiFePO batteries too.

jviss · Mar 12, 2022

JamesG161 said:
They must have listened.

Too long of a story, but they helped me, by phone, with my new one.
Their new Xanbus Controller is ethernet based and Stackable, if needed.
Full Battery monitor with Amp flows.

Everything was "Plug and Play".

The toughest part for me was their Battery Temperature monitor, which was new on my boat.
Jim...

PS: Mine was installed by a ABYC electrician.
PSS: They sell LiFePO batteries too.

I looked at the Xantrex site, and I can't find an alternator regulator designed or programmable for LFP. Am I missing it somehow? It would be great if they had an integrated regulator that worked with the inverter/charger and other accessories, and was specific to LFP.

JamesG161 · Mar 12, 2022

Maine Sail said:
Xentrex does not make regulators.

Perhaps they do. Not sure about LiFePO
Power Accessories | Xantrex Alternator Regulator | Xantrex

jviss · Mar 12, 2022

JamesG161 said:
Perhaps they do. Not sure about LiFePO
Power Accessories | Xantrex Alternator Regulator | Xantrex

That looks a lot like a Balmar regulator. I read the spec, it's a three-stage reg for lead-acid.

Bob J. · Mar 12, 2022

Mark Maulden said:
I am 69+ and my FLAs (4x6V GCU)have lasted me 10 years over past decades. I buy them right off the production line in Seattle. I figure I have one more battery change (maybe 2) in my sailing “career” and four of them are ~ $700. It is just not cost effective at this time.

I agree, drop ins are not cost effective for the average boater. The savings switching to LFP at this moment in time comes from those willing to conduct their own science experiment & build their own bank.
If it wasn't for the fact I have an electric boat, wouldn't even be considering it.

Hayden Watson · Mar 12, 2022

Maine Sail said:
I am on that forum too and have seen all those "up-in smoke" posts.. Not a single installation I've seen has been "properly or safely" installed. That said even in dead shorts with no fusing the cells themselves still failed to catch fire or explode....I have tons of fire photos on my hard drive( refers send them along any time they see one, but not a single one of those installs were "properly or safely" installed and none of them were caused by over-charging..

All metal enclosure, what could possibly go wrong.

Just the fact that he said that he had three previous "shorting incidents" on these cells tells you everything you need to know.

If this guy couldn't get the LFP to burn, I think your fifty bucks is save. :beer:

DCGULL · Mar 13, 2022

First, congratulations for your efforts to recover. That's a long road! What an informative article! I thought I knew a thing or two about LiFePO4 but windlass/bow thruster insurge can be amazing. The alternator charging was also eye opening. Thank you from the bottom of my meager wallet!!!

thinwater · Mar 13, 2022

Just to add to the discussion:

In this case getting wet was the issue. The battery cooling system had just been serviced, so presumably something was assembled incorrectly. Ironically, part of the service included pressure testing with air, to detect leaks and weaknesses. No idea what the battery chemistry was, but the maker seems to like lithium nickel manganese cobalt rather than LiFePO4. Also, the batteries were 1000V, so very different. Totally different.
Ytterøyningen fire cause discovered
By admin On December 16, 2019 In Insurance Marine News, Keep, Marine Hull, Marine Liability
The cause of the fire and explosion on passenger ship Ytterøyningen (IMO 9371531) has been found, battery manufacturer Corvus said on December 12th. It said that the cause was a leak from a twisted gasket in cooling system of the battery pack. This led to an arc in the battery, followed by an overheating and subsequent fire off the Sydnes ferry dock in Kvinnherad. It was not explained why or how the gasket became twisted.
The alarm started later than it should have because the battery pack was switched off when the fire started. In the morning after firefighting began there was a powerful explosion in the room with the battery compartment, sending out large shock waves. There was no one on board the ferry at that time.

The concern is the shipping business does not seem to be the risk of fire, but that even when the fire was started by something unrelated, it is a bugger to put out.

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I don't have pics, but I saw a nearly-new boat that had a small fire involving a bow thruster battery. It was a Cleantron battery (chemistry unknown to me) and the cause was thought to be something internal. Damage was minimal and they replaced it in kind. UL and ISO, not Chinese. It was a Salona sailboat.

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I don't get the statement that FLA batteries only last 150 cycles in the real world. We run FLA fork trucks in the warehouse, and they average 1200-1500 cycles while being quite poorly maintained. They commonly run them until they start slowing down and they sometimes stay dead across a weekend or longer. Cells run low on water and it isn't always distilled. I know they can be ruined quickly, but comparing terrible abuse of a FLA battery with a LiFwPO4 battery with a BMS and smart chargers is like comparing apples with hand grenades. Compare them more equally. We were told we could not include failures or fires due to poor installation, incorrect charging, or poor BMS.

I do believe Li is going to be a big part of the future. But the tech is more complex and still evolving.

Drop-In LiFePO4 Batteries – Be an Educated Consumer

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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