Dismasted!

[Indysailor]

Oh, and the chainplate was attached to the bulkhead, but it too had rotted out, and the entire bracket pulled right through the deck. Sounds like I should look at replacing that too.

That's the reason the mast came down, not the soft deck. The through hole in the deck was not sealed or maintained on a regular basis and water infiltrated down the chainplate to the bulkhead, where it caused rot and loss of structural integrity. The water also soaked the deck core; both of these issues are relatively common on old boats with deferred maintenance issues, mine included.

You can replace that bulkhead- on our smaller ODays (not totally sure about your 22, but I'm guessing) it's not tabbed in with fiberglass, but rather just bolted in. You jack up the cabin top about 1/2 inch and the bulkheads come right out. Then you can use them as templates for new ones that can be cut with a saber saw. One 4X8 sheet of 12mm or 1/2 inch marine grade plywood will do it.

 

[Brian Schwerdt]

Well, thanks to the encouragement of others on this thread, I have decided to try my hand at fixing this myself. The worst that can happen is that the boat is still unusable (i.e. no worse than today), and I have learned a few things in the process. I decided to revive this thread and document my progress. I also intend to use it to pick everyone's brains as I go along.

So here we go...

The first task is to remove all the rotten wood and assess the situation. I began this past weekend by removing the kitchenette and bulkhead. There was a lot of rotten wood. Pretty much anything touching the cabin sole was rotten on the bottom 2-3". You can also see where the chain plate ripped out of the bulkhead and through the deck.

I have already learned a lot about the construction of this boat. Once I figured out how it was all screwed together, it came right apart. The compression post was simply wedged in place and screwed to the bulkhead. The bulkhead simply slides into a "track" in the cabin liner. It all seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Brian Schwerdt]

Now that the inside of the boat has been cleared up to the hole, I decided to take a look at the deck side. Using a dremel with a cutting bit, I cut through the top layer of fiberglass. I grabbed a chisel to remove the core, but it turns out it was so rotten, I didn't need it.

In exploring the extent of the core, I cut a little too far, and you can see the hole right into the cabin (oops! ) It turns out, towards the edge of the boat, the core stops before the non-skid does, while towards the inside of the boat, it goes beyond the non-skid. Live and learn.

The last thing I did today was to grind the bottom layer of glass back to "good" (or really "not as bad") glass. I had to cut away some of the cabin liner that was pulled through with the chain plates, but not much. I will have to figure out how to lay a new layer of glass with nothing supporting underneath it. I assume that I will have to create a temporary backing of sorts. The good news is, the entire hole is only a couple of inches at the widest.

I guess the next steps are to reglass the bottom layer and to see how far the rot extends. Judging by feel, this is shaping up to be a full recore job. If I'm off base on my next move, any advice is very welcome.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Since you are gutting the interior and starting anew inside and out, you may as well consider designing the interior bulkheads that will align with the shouds and bring the chainplate thru the deck and fasten to the bulkhead. It involves a change in fittings, for sure ... but it is a much more secure attachment and will give you a more robust construction. It may be overkill for this boat design, but it wouldn't hurt any. You should also take a close look at the stem fitting for the forestay as well.

The shrouds seem to be outboard already, so fixing to the hull is also a good idea.

 

[Ross]

For backing material for a hole the simplist is corrogated cardboard either waxed with a melted candle wax or covered with poly sheeting. My favorite is a piece of formica type laminate that has been waxed with car wax. Whatever you use support it well because you will be pressing the glass and resin against it. Grind everything clean before you start.

 

[LANCE ON CLOUD NINE]

If it were me, i would not redesign the chain plates to the outer hull. It is thin there and would take alot of beefing up.
I would replace the bulkheads and reuse any original hardware and shrouds that proved decent. I would order exact replacements for those that looked to fail.
BUT I would put large stainless backing plates - Maybe 12"x 6" (approx) under the original style chain plates.
This would help alleviate the weak attachment the small chain plates have on the wood bulkheads. (bad original design i think) You can do it! good luck!

 

[Ross]

All of the dicisions depend on the access to the hull and the skills of the owner. Reinforcing the hull is easy as adding more plies of glass.

 

[Brian Schwerdt]

Thanks everyone for chiming in! I'll take all the feedback I can get.

The original design had the chain plates attached to the bulkhead. It's not obvious from these pictures, but the wood was rotten there too, and ripped right through. I intend to reuse the same design, although I may invest in new hardware if I feel the old brackets are jeopardized. Reinforcing the area is a great idea. I will probably look into stainless steel backing when I get there.

As for backing the hole, where can I get a small piece of formica laminate? Is that something I can buy, or maybe get a sample of somewhere? I'm also unsure how I'll support it. I'll see what I can rig up.

 

[Indysailor]

Thanks everyone for chiming in! I'll take all the feedback I can get.

The original design had the chain plates attached to the bulkhead. It's not obvious from these pictures, but the wood was rotten there too, and ripped right through. I intend to reuse the same design, although I may invest in new hardware if I feel the old brackets are jeopardized. Reinforcing the area is a great idea. I will probably look into stainless steel backing when I get there.

As for backing the hole, where can I get a small piece of formica laminate? Is that something I can buy, or maybe get a sample of somewhere? I'm also unsure how I'll support it. I'll see what I can rig up.

Good Old Boat this month has a few nice pictures of how to use a woodworking clamp as a spreader. It's shown supporting work on a cabin ceiling.
I thought the chain plates looked kind of smallish on the 22 and maybe using some that would extend down another 3 or 4 inches would have helped. But rotten wood is rotten wood and your boat will be better than it was before after its finished.

 

[Ross]

If you have a cabinet/kitchen shop nearby they will give you some scrap. Consider the size of the shroud cable. A 3/16 wire rope can't shear 2-1/4 inch bolts. The entire system needs to be only strong enough to lay your boat on her beam ends. The old weakest link in the chain picture.

 

[rgranger]

Don't be afraid to just try.... fiberglass work and even carpentry is very forgiving and if you mess up, you can always grind it out and start over.

I've attached some pics of an old boat I purchased about 7 years ago. The hull was a mess and needed all new stringers.... holes and cracks fixed and ALL of the interior wood was rotten. In the first pic you can see how I stripped her out....

In the second pic you can see that I could not get the bulkhead to fit in through the companionway door ... so I had to bring it in in sections and laminate it in place... It did not look great but it was strong.... and I hid the sloppy joint under some marine carpet and no one was the wiser.

The point is... I didn't know the first thing about boat repair before I started this job... but some reading and good advice from this list serve and I had a good outcome.

Don't worry about it.... the hardest part is starting....

 

[Merlin Clark]

Brian,
From the pics I see on the 'net, it looks like the current location for the chain plates is a couple of inches in from the toe rail? Have you considered moving the chainplate out to mount on the hull?
I know there is some concern about the distance between the chainplates being the same as the spreader width but mine was changed at least 6 years ago (prior to when I bought her) + I've seen some older production boats set up with a narrower distance in the spreaders and as far as I know none have been dismasted nor has the world ended as a result.
I like the open side decks on mine and have not missed the sheeting ability reduced by this change.
On the laminate peices, might see if the box stores have the little samples like they do for flooring products.

 

[Brian Schwerdt]

Well, progress is slow but steady. I only get a couple of hours a week to work on this project. Fortunately I have some very generous friends who have given of their time to help me out along the way.

I removed the mangled mast step, and discovered yet more rot. This piece of hardware was clearly not original - there was a big hole underneath it, filled in with caulk. Needless to say, this "repair" allowed water in over time. I removed the caulk and the top layer of glass, then chiseled out what remained of the core. Surprisingly, I found dry core only a few inches away. I am very surprised this rot didn't spread.

I also broke out the circular saw for the first time. Boy does that make quick work of removing fiberglass! Yes, I know everyone said it would. I was a little hesitant because the last thing I want to do is cut straight through both layers of glass. Now that I know the depth can be set right, the rest of the deck looks much less daunting.

 

[CalebD]

Consider using this honeycomb polypropylene core instead of plywood for your core material. http://www.expresscomposites.com/honeycomb.html
About the same price as a good grade of marine ply but it is not wood and wont rot.
Cuts easily with a sharp razor and does not absorb a lot of epoxy to laminate in place.
I did a similar job on my boat about a month ago: http://www.odalisque.us/2013/05/2013-may-2nd-re-core-work-party/

 

[finding41]

Be careful with that saw! It is missing an important guard piece on the outside protecting your fingers from the blade. If it kicks back.... When done with it I would cut the cord and trow it away. Don't mean to harp about it. I just know too many people with less than 10 fingers. All of them. ALL! Skill saw.
Good on ya for taking on this project! In the end you will have gained valuable experience and the confidence to take on any boat repair.
Here is a YouTube link to a guy that demonstrates everything you can do to your boat. He also does it correctly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAtjHjJhBV0
It is amazing the things you can learn to do from YouTube. I was taught to sew, time my sewing machine, fix my outboard, my car, how to write and give a good best mans speech, etc...

 

[Jared1048]

im curious to how tight was your rigging? Could you play musical notes with it or was is slack?

good to see it was only material damage and not worse.

 

[Brian Schwerdt]

Thanks for the tip on the polypropylene core, Caleb. I was going to use balsa, not plywood, per the original design. It sounds like this stuff will be cheaper, and less likely to rot - it's hard to argue with that! And my complements to your recore job. I only wish I had 3-4 days to just work on it. As it is, I get about 2 hours, once a week. I spend about 15-20 minutes of that just setting up and wrapping up. The plus is that I am working on a trailer in my driveway. How was it working on the water? I don't know if I would have even attempted that.

finding41 - thanks for the warning with the saw. I try to be as careful as I can, but accidents can happen too easily if using the wrong equipment. I looked up pictures of other circular saws, and I don't see any missing guard piece on mine. Maybe the picture doesn't show it well, but there is a blade guard that snaps back. The saw is actually resting inside the cut, so the guard is pushed out of the way. Or maybe there's another piece you're referring to that just don't know should be there? Maybe I'll stop through Lowe's and have a look at their saws in person.

You tube is definitely an incredible resource. Without it, I would not have even attempted this project. I am definitely a visual learner - I can read all day on a subject and not understand it. Or I could watch a 10-15 minute YouTube video, and know exactly what needs to be done.

Jared - the rigging was probably looser than it should have been. It was hand-tight, whereas in retrospect, I should have used a tool for some extra leverage. There were definitely no musical notes playing on my rig, although the wind made it sing. I don't know how much this affected the dismasting though. Everything that the rigging was secured to (deck core and bulkhead) was pretty rotten.

 

[kpgraci]

Brian,

This is a great thread. Sorry it had to come as a result of you losing a mast! I will triple inspect my bulkheads at the chainplates for rot.

Since you are tearing up the interior perhaps you could answer a question - where is your fresh water tank located? Mine is missing, I believe it used to be under the v-berth. I saw in one of your photos the hose coming up from under the sink.

Oh yeah, what kind of winds were you in when you lost the mast? I suppose if rot were the culprit it would not really take too much.

Ken

 

[Jared1048]

if your rigging was tight and loosened up i wonder if this is could of been seen as a early warning. Hope I'm not too off topic but its something i have been having debates with all over the place. Everywhere i read it states 15-20% breaking strength but then race with people who all say its too tight.

much like a dog running with a leash on the finding the end quickly it shock loads doing more damage.

anyways. Best of luck on your repair process!

 

[rgranger]

...finding41 - thanks for the warning with the saw. I try to be as careful as I can, but accidents can happen too easily if using the wrong equipment. I looked up pictures of other circular saws, and I don't see any missing guard piece on mine. Maybe the picture doesn't show it well, but there is a blade guard that snaps back. The saw is actually resting inside the cut, so the guard is pushed out of the way. Or maybe there's another piece you're referring to that just don't know should be there? Maybe I'll stop through Lowe's and have a look at their saws in person.....

I think Findings just missed the guard as it was pushed back like you said. It looks like my skill saw.

Anyway, whenever I use a power tool (skill saw, power planner etc.) I pause before I pull the trigger and ask where are my hands, where are my thighs and where will the cutting edge end up when the stroke is complete. Then I pull the trigger. It is a mantra that I've repeated so often it has become automatic.