Defending Our Passengers + Vessels

[Ducati]

I'm no fan of weapons (yet) however I often wonder what I would do in the event of someone boarding our vessel looking to rob, injure or even kill passengers. Got me thinking of sailors around the world who were killed after foolishly venturing into areas where high-sea criminals/pirates work.

One day we may sail blue waters and until then I have time to consider our options regarding defending ourselves.

Comments?

 

[Phil Herring]

Looks like it's gun thread time. Please be advised that political comments or personal attacks will land this in the War Room.

 

[FourPoints]

You need to be careful when carrying firearms aboard a vessel in foreign ports. Back in the mid 70's my dad was a delivery skipper in south east Florida. He had done 2 single handed trans Atlantic crossings, and was hired to do a delivery of an older boat down from Florida to Columbia. They ran into some rough weather and something started leaking, and they started taking on water a little faster than the pumps could keep up, so they made their way into the nearest port. Since the boat was slowly taking on water they had to go ashore and get parts for immediate repairs, but the customs offices were closed, it was Sunday! When he went ashore anyway to try to ask a police officer for advice / help, where he was arrested for illegal entry in the country. Monday they wanted to search the boat, but couldn't until after they re-floated it and hauled it out (it sank overnight in the harbor while at anchor). When they searched the boat they found 2 rifles, one was working (at least it was prior to going under water), and the wasn't (it was just for show in case someone tried to steal the boat). As a result of finding weapons on the boat, him and the single crew member he had with him were charged with illegal possession / smuggling of firearms and intent to smuggle weapons and / or drugs. He spent 6 months in prison while waiting for his case to get heard, and eventually with pressure from the US embassy, was dropped and he was released.

The only good thing that came of that, he learned Spanish while down there...

 

[Faris]

Carrying weapons increases your chances of being killed. The first thing to understand is that the kind of boat you sail dictates how likely you are to be boarded while you are on board. Piracy is risky, and pirates don't often target yachts - particularly sailing yachts. If you have a very valuable boat, this increases your risk. The other thing that increases your risk is giving people the impression that the boat or its contents are valuable (through interactions with people ashore). Piracy is never random. Vessels are targeted before they leave port.

The next thing to understand is that, no matter what you are carrying, they have more people and more/better weapons. They won't attack you if they aren't pretty sure this is the case. This is a no-win situation - if you give people the impression you are armed (in an attempt to dissuade would-be attackers), they'll just show up with better weapons.

For the weapons to do you any good, you have to point them at the attacker. If you do this, you had better be ready to shoot. If you do this, you had better be prepared to die for whatever you are attempting to defend.

Your best defense is to maintain modest appearances. When ashore, dress modestly, don't spend money excessively, and haggle over the price of everything, but deal with people fairly.

I've traveled extensively in some pretty sketchy regions (though not on a boat) and never had any problems. I attribute this to the fact that I give off the impression that I have just enough money to get by and nothing else of value. Also, having a Canadian passport cover doesn't hurt. (It's not illegal to have a foreign passport jacket.)

 

[Ross]

read the story of John Paul Jones. If you intend to go into harms way then you need to be prepared to do what ever you need to survive and that isn't easily done on less than fifty feet even with a well trained and equiped crew. I would just stay in friendly water.

 

[KD3PC]

following some of the comments posted here about weapons and piracy, assuming you believe them, will get you in far more trouble...there is no basis in fact for these comments.

 

[mcrow33]

I have lived in Vermont all my life and doing so have been surounded by guns all my life. I am not one of the so called progressives that have envaided my state. I started hunting and shooting when I was 14. I also own a wide range of guns. Saying that, I depend on the dogs I've had over the year to protect my house. These have been family pets, beagles, labs, and a part shepard. All big babies. The best advice, I have seen so far in this tread is, If you are not ready to pull the trigger, don't pick up a gun. Because it's a good chance that the other person is ready. Also, remember if you are outside of the US and kill someone definding youself, you fall under their laws. Most countries may not see this the sameway. Personally, I stay away from the places that will put you in danger. I know that there is bad people no matter where you go, but be smart. If you go hiking in Irac/Iran and get in trouble, well... If you really think you want a gun, go for the shotgun. Hand guns are for experts. Personlly, I would plan my trips for friendly places and stay in crowded anckorages. Be alert, most criminals are looking for the easy prey. If they don't know what to exspect they will move on to the next place.

 

[jackhartjr]

Is a flare gun legal eveyrwhere...or are there places you cannot have them?
The second question is this; how does NY feel about flare guns on boats?
Jack

 

[Forrest15112]

Carrying weapons increases your chances of being killed. The first thing to understand is that the kind of boat you sail dictates how likely you are to be boarded while you are on board. Piracy is risky, and pirates don't often target yachts - particularly sailing yachts. If you have a very valuable boat, this increases your risk. The other thing that increases your risk is giving people the impression that the boat or its contents are valuable (through interactions with people ashore). Piracy is never random. Vessels are targeted before they leave port.

The next thing to understand is that, no matter what you are carrying, they have more people and more/better weapons. They won't attack you if they aren't pretty sure this is the case. This is a no-win situation - if you give people the impression you are armed (in an attempt to dissuade would-be attackers), they'll just show up with better weapons.

For the weapons to do you any good, you have to point them at the attacker. If you do this, you had better be ready to shoot. If you do this, you had better be prepared to die for whatever you are attempting to defend.

Your best defense is to maintain modest appearances. When ashore, dress modestly, don't spend money excessively, and haggle over the price of everything, but deal with people fairly.

I've traveled extensively in some pretty sketchy regions (though not on a boat) and never had any problems. I attribute this to the fact that I give off the impression that I have just enough money to get by and nothing else of value. Also, having a Canadian passport cover doesn't hurt. (It's not illegal to have a foreign passport jacket.)

Carrying weapons increases your chances of being killed? This makes absolutely no sense to me. I've never sailed any pirate infested waters or dealt with any on the water threats ( 'cept for a couple of cajun guys and a crab trap mixup), but human nature and the mentality of criminals is basically the same everywhere. Robbers, burglars, and pirates all are looking for an easy target of opportunity. This is why burglars will skip houses with alarm systems, dogs, and armed owners waiting inside. This is also why police officers are never mugged on the street. When awakened at night by the sound of glass shattering, I will be much more confident responding with a firearm.

According to your logic, pirates are made of some special mettle that even attempting to defend yourself will only bring an even bigger resonse from them. You left out their capes in your description. In reality, an unarmed person is completely at the mercy of their armed attacker. You assume that the armed cruiser has no training and is incapable of using lethal force. That's probably true in some cases and those should reconsider travelling through areas known for piracy. Actually, that is the real best defense for everyone.

I think Four Seasons hit it on the head with restrictions in foreign waters. Pirates and other criminals probably know this and therefore have no fear. Cruising into port on a 40+ foot yacht and trying to portray one's self as a pauper probably fools no one.

 

[tommays]

You cant take a handgun up and down the east coast of the USA and stop in different states there are so MANY different handgun rules without some pretty serious legal issues

A long gun perhaps a handgun no way at least legal

 

[kenn]

I'm no fan of weapons (yet) however I often wonder what I would do in the event of someone boarding our vessel looking to rob, injure or even kill passengers.

It's not always profitable to dwell on all the remote what-ifs, and for the vast majority of us, being boarded by armed intruders is pretty far down on the list of probabilities.

By itself, the presence of a firearm (if known) INCREASES, not decreases the chance of a robbery attempt.

I'm not advocating taking away anyone's right to possess a firearm where legal. I'm hoping anyone who contemplates doing so gets the proper training and practice. But for most of us, the likelihood of a mechanical problem is a couple orders of magnitude more likely than the chance of armed intruders, so a mechanics course would be a far better investment of time.

Got me thinking of sailors around the world who were killed after foolishly venturing into areas where high-sea criminals/pirates work.

I'm sorry for any victim of crime, but there's really no excuse for a leisure sailor to be venturing alone into known problem areas. Avoid these, or take the proper precautions (flotilla, boat forwarding, whatever) for transiting problem areas.

 

[Faris]

Carrying weapons increases your chances of being killed? This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Well, I misspoke slightly. Carrying a weapon itself is relatively harmless. It's just a chunk of metal. It is the use of the weapon that increases your risk. This is because, as I mentioned, pirates don't attack boats without weapons of their own, and they WILL outnumber you. That is their method. Really, what are you going to do with that weapon? Are you really going to have a shootout with the bad guys?

Yes, you can come up with hypothetical situations whereby you don't have much of a choice, but those are really rare and unlikely. You're better off using the space/weight to carry extra water, spare parts, fuel, or any number of things that are MUCH more likely to save your life.

There are examples of cases where people have successfully fought off pirates, but for each such example, you can come up with several counter-examples.

It all comes down to what you're afraid of. Guns for self-defense are all about fear of the unlikely. Their use WILL escalate any situation at a time that calls for deescalation. I am not anti-gun at all. Spent my time in the military and law enforcement. I can tell you this, though. If you pull a gun on an armed criminal, particularly several armed criminals, bullets will be fired.

 

[doehunter]

As a trailer sailer, I'm not likely to be in pirate infested water but,
I also avoid crowds. I cruise to get away. So if I'm on the hook alone I look like an easy target. Not rich but hey, I think they see you with a sailboat, they think you have money.
I see no problem with responding to a couple of thugs with more trouble than they want to get into. I currently have been unarmed on the boat, but sometimes I would be more comfortable if I was.

 

[Slade]

I'm permitted to carry in over 40 states. I used to travel by motorcycle all over the country. I carried on many of those trips. Having a firearm Did Not increase the chance of trouble. (Get on the carry forums and you'll find very spirited discussions on open vs concealed carry. Again, a choice.) However, I can say that on two occasions just the fact that I was legally open carrying did prevent a crime from happening. One at a ATM and the other at a gas station late at night riding cross country ahead of some storms.

You must be trained in proper techniques and methods of self defense and proper proficient use of a firearm to carry one responsibly. Situational awareness is essential to not getting yourself in hotter water. Make no bones about it..prepared, trained, and willing will give you a better chance if armed thugs wish to do you and your's harm than if you are just a sheep led to slaughter.

As for safe waters there has been piracy on the Great Lakes...read about it here I believe. Anything can happen anywhere.

What are the odds? Very small indeed. But it does happen. As sailors we are prepared for many small odds situations..this is just one other.

What you choose is your decision. Do your own research and get the proper training. Per our instructor, over 60% of the people who take the course and pass the test Never carry. But they do now have the option.

 

[RAD]

Is a flare gun legal eveyrwhere...or are there places you cannot have them?
The second question is this; how does NY feel about flare guns on boats?
Jack

Its a required piece of equipment.......now if you have a modification for it to shoot a shell ......well thats for a different thread and forum

 

[doehunter]

if I was a bad guy, I wouldn't want those flares being shot at me!
Not sure what they can do but it's gotta hurt?

 

[rpwillia]

One more thought

I have told my wife that if someone was holding a knife to her and I had a gun that I would shoot to kill them and then worry about helping her with first aid - there is no way I would ever relinquish the gun. As for most of the advice, a low key approach is best. If I felt I needed it I would carry a gun and shoot to kill. My preferred handgun is a .45 as I like the knock down power, not impressed with the 9mm (pretty, but not really impressive). Other than that use a shotgun and don't hesitate.

And don't get me going on Somali pirates. 2 armed guards per ship that put a hole in anything unidentified coming at them a mile away in the middle of the ocean would be all it takes. Once the pirates started to go to sea and did not return, the rest would figure it out.

 

[ILikeRust]

Carrying weapons increases your chances of being killed.

While the rest of your recommendations might be valid, this statement simply is not true. Does carrying a fire extinguisher increase your chance of having a fire? Does carrying a spare tire increase you chance of having a flat?

If you truly believe this assertion, I would be interested in seeing the data that substantiates the claim.

 

[ILikeRust]

Guns for self-defense are all about fear of the unlikely.

Again, untrue.

I carry a spare tire not because I fear the unlikely event that I might get a flat, but because I'd rather have it and not need it than get a flat tire - which is a possibility, although unlikely - and not have the spare. I've been driving for nearly 30 years, and have driven literally dozens of different vehicles in nearly every state in the continental U.S. In all that time and hundreds of thousands of miles of driving, I have had exactly two flat tires. So although it's highly unlikely, I still carry a spare.

I keep a fire extinguisher in my house and on my boat not because I'm afraid of a fire, but because it's simply prudent to have, to be prepared for the unlikely event that a fire occurs.

I have life insurance, not because I'm afraid I'm going to die, but again, because it's prudent preparation for the unlikely event that something happens - my family will at least be provided for.

I carry tools, a first aid kit, and tapered wooden plugs on board not out of fear, but preparation.

It's about being prepared for potential circumstances, not fear.

Yes, cruising in international waters and foreign ports does add complicating dimensions to the calculus, but a gun is a tool. One must make a reasoned analytical determination whether to equip one's self with one, just like with any other tool.

As for me, I would rather have one and not need it than need one and not have it. Just like a fire extinguisher, a spare tire, a tapered wooden plug, a PFD, a flare gun, life insurance, etc. And just like all those things, I hope I never have to use it for real. I would much rather the situation remain that I don't need it.

I don't sail in international waters - maybe I will someday. But I have a concealed carry permit and do generally keep a .45 in my truck. I don't usually have a gun on my boat, but I have from time to time, depending on where I'm going.

 

[ruidh]

No guns on my boat

Ever.

I feel quite safe sailing in and around New York City.