Crimper to make battery cable?

[Maine Sail]

True with regards to conductor cross sectional area but not for conductor diameter due to the number of strands. The number of strands therefore determines the lug size and crimp die required. Generally flexible cables will need larger lugs than building wire cables. Also, flared lugs are made specifically for flexible cables to make it easier to get all of the strands in the barrel so it's interesting that you avoid them

Considering is is generally verboten to crimp to solid conductors, and the average differences between solid and stranded OD is on the order of approx 5%, we are still not even close with the mythical AWG die sizing on the HFT tool..

It makes an okay crimp on 4ga with flared lugs but not on anything larger for stranded AWG cable..

 

[Tymadman]

Considering is is generally verboten to crimp to solid conductors, and the average differences between solid and stranded OD is on the order of approx 5%, we are still not even close with the mythical AWG die sizing on the HFT tool..

Yes, that one is just weird!

 

[Maine Sail]

Yes, that one is just weird!

So is the included die for 7 AWG wire, ...... Hence the "mythical standard" comments...

 

[Tymadman]

So is the included die for 7 AWG wire, ...... Hence the "mythical standard" comments...

Come on now, just because no one makes 7 AWG wire doesn't mean it's mythical ;-)

 

[jviss]

Jviss,

1/0 is 1/0, is 1/0 under the AWG (American Wire Gauge) standards. The largest dies are labeled as 1/0 for AWG.

I also used the thinnest walled 1/0 lugs I know of. They are commonly referred to as "starter lugs".. A 1/0 heavy duty lug will not even fit between the 1/0 dies with them fully opened.I am at a loss as to how it is even possible to get a 1/0 lug & wire from ANY manufacturer, that uses the AWG standards, to crimp properly in that tool.

It took four sizes smaller, than the dies are marked for, in wire/lug combination, to make a crimp that is considered a decent crimp. The 1/0 AWG die makes a decent crimp on 4GA wire using a thin-walled starter lug.. This is a LONG WAY from 1/0... Heck the 1/0 die is multiples smaller than just 1/0 bare wire..

Also, can you get me some 7 AWG wire..?

When you mark a tool for 1/0 AWG don't you feel it should at least crimp 1/0 wire and lugs....? It is not marked for SAE wire or MCM or any other standard, it is marked AWG...

Getting into custom dies is going to cost you more than simply buying a tool that works as it is labeled for such as the Greenlee, FTZ or Quick Cable tools........

I guess you're right, but it seems somewhat goofy, no? I've seen them get things wrong, but not this wrong!

For dies, I was thinking of making my own, or modifying theirs. For small volume crimping you probably wouldn't even need to harden them, but if you wanted to case hardening would likely be sufficient. It would be easy to soften up the supplied dies enough to machine them.

 

[Hartley]

Hi Y'all,

20 years ago, we bought our first big boat (a '78 Gulfstar 50 ketch) and it quickly became obvious that all the main battery wiring had to be replaced. The PO had used #2 and 1/0 stranded house wire, and what wasn't green was jet black - and so stiff it was impossible to work with.

So I replaced it, with a combination of 2/0, 1/0 and #4 welding wire, as it was very flexible, relatively inexpensive, and available. I had wired a number of low voltage/high-current communications sites, so I already had a good selection of the required tools, including crimpers very much like Maine Sail's. I bought lugs and battery terminals from an outfit called Spectro Wire in Moore, OK - I used their "mega lugs", which look to be very much like the heavy-duty lugs Maine is using. I was aware that there is a serious risk of corrosion with the welding wire due to the un-tinned conductors, so I did the ends in the following way:
1) crimp the wire into the lug - two crimps per, leaving about 1/8" of bare conductor showing between the insulation and the lug.
2) solder the connection, using electronic solder and a small torch, ensuring that the wire was completely flooded inside the lug.
3) cover each joint with double-wall adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing, ensuring that adhesive flowed out all the way around (implying a complete seal).

I also coated each battery terminal with the red grease that Spectro sells for that purpose.

When we sold the boat 10 years later, the cables looked just like they did the day I put them in.

Hartley
S/V Atsa

 

[Maine Sail]

Hi Y'all,

20 years ago, we bought our first big boat (a '78 Gulfstar 50 ketch) and it quickly became obvious that all the main battery wiring had to be replaced. The PO had used #2 and 1/0 stranded house wire, and what wasn't green was jet black - and so stiff it was impossible to work with.

So I replaced it, with a combination of 2/0, 1/0 and #4 welding wire, as it was very flexible, relatively inexpensive, and available. I had wired a number of low voltage/high-current communications sites, so I already had a good selection of the required tools, including crimpers very much like Maine Sail's. I bought lugs and battery terminals from an outfit called Spectro Wire in Moore, OK - I used their "mega lugs", which look to be very much like the heavy-duty lugs Maine is using. I was aware that there is a serious risk of corrosion with the welding wire due to the un-tinned conductors, so I did the ends in the following way:
1) crimp the wire into the lug - two crimps per, leaving about 1/8" of bare conductor showing between the insulation and the lug.
2) solder the connection, using electronic solder and a small torch, ensuring that the wire was completely flooded inside the lug.
3) cover each joint with double-wall adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing, ensuring that adhesive flowed out all the way around (implying a complete seal).

I also coated each battery terminal with the red grease that Spectro sells for that purpose.

When we sold the boat 10 years later, the cables looked just like they did the day I put them in.

Hartley
S/V Atsa

In a well made crimp solder will not flow into the crimp bands as there is no physical room left between the wire strands as they have cold formed. I have soldered them, then cut them open and found no solder where the crimp was. I have also experimented by filling the end of a closed lug with some sugar before inserting the wire and crimping. I then dropped it into a glass of water and left it to sit. I then came back and drilled a hole in the lug and the dry sugar drained out.... My point is that with a "proper" crimp tool there is no need for any solder because teh joint is pretty much impervious to moisture.. With a poor crimp solder will flow into it, this is one of the differences....

 

[Hartley]

In a well made crimp solder will not flow into the crimp bands as there is no physical room left between the wire strands as they have cold formed. I have soldered them, then cut them open and found no solder where the crimp was. I have also experimented by filling the end of a closed lug with some sugar before inserting the wire and crimping. I then dropped it into a glass of water and left it to sit. I then came back and drilled a hole in the lug and the dry sugar drained out.... My point is that with a "proper" crimp tool there is no need for any solder because teh joint is pretty much impervious to moisture.. With a poor crimp solder will flow into it, this is one of the differences....

Maine, I agree 100% - a proper "gas-tight" crimp should not admit solder. In this case, I was more concerned with moisture/acid fumes entering the cable at the juncture of the lug & insulation - like a backup to the adhesive-lined heat-shrink. It would also cover any unseen failures of the crimp. When I've been confronted with lugs that have a hole on both ends (bad, I know, but sometimes you don't have a choice.. ) solder is not an option, IMHO.

Thanks DE Hartley

p.s. Over the years I've heard a number of sources claim that welder wire should never be used in a marine environment, but other than the marginal additional corrosion resistance offered by the tinning, I've never figured out any meaningful difference from "marine" battery cable. Certainly my own experience (mostly in mountaintop environments, but also my own boat) has been that it works fine as long as the ends are properly sealed. Do you know of any other reasons?
HJG

 

[Maine Sail]

p.s. Over the years I've heard a number of sources claim that welder wire should never be used in a marine environment, but other than the marginal additional corrosion resistance offered by the tinning, I've never figured out any meaningful difference from "marine" battery cable. Certainly my own experience (mostly in mountaintop environments, but also my own boat) has been that it works fine as long as the ends are properly sealed. Do you know of any other reasons?
HJG

The reason welding cable is not used is because the jacket is not suitable for marine use. It is specifically banned for use under ABYC standards. Not because of the physical wire, but rather the wires insulation/jacket.

The copper wire inside is perfectly fine but the cable jacket is not fine. It absorbs, and is softened by oils and hydrocarbons. I have literally seen it turned to dripping goo.

I have a whole pile of it out behind my shop that was pulled off a large Defever Trawler. It caused THOUSANDS of dollars in corrosion damage to the boat when the jacket voided, failed and leaked DC current into the vessel. It can allow moisture to wick through once the jacket has been damaged/softened and even worse, it can leak current out into the vessel.. The jacket temp ratings are often only 60C not the 105C we use for marine cable. Any welding cable that does not carry a UL rating should be avoided at all costs..

That said if used in DRY areas only, and the jacket temp rating is correct, it carries a UL rating, then it can work, but is still against current marine safety standards..

If you look into a quality welding cable, with a UL rating and a 105C jacket temp, it costs just about as much as tinned marine battery cable. So why bother?

When you compare apples to apples, which most often don't, the pricing between tinned UL1426 Marine cable and a UL welding cable is very small. Apples to apples is not just 1/0 to 1/0, what's the price difference...

I would strongly urge anyone to NOT use any welding cable that doesn't carry a UL listing and a 105C jacket rating. 90C would be the bare minimum to allow for proper fusing..

There is lots of pure junk out there in the welding cable market much of it flowing in from China etc. with jackets made from who knows what. Buying a marine UL1426 wire ensures you are getting a trusted product that has been proven and specifically tested for marine applications.

I yank failed welding cable out of boats all the time that have ZERO markings of any sort on the jacket... Scary stuff.. Some of these wires are not even marked with the wire gauge just bare red or black cable with NOTHING on the jacket...... Makes me nauseous just thinking about what the jacket is actually made of and how fast it could erupt into flames in a dead short or fault situation.........

 

[Hartley]

Hello Maine,

Interesting - and this explains why I hadn't seen any issues in my experiences. I went out to the storeroom and looked at my remaining stock of wire, and the two types I have are 105 degree "Carolprene" (a proprietary form of neoprene) and 90 degree Hypalon. I did a bit of web research and determined that both of these are considered to be water, oil and fuel resistant. I also discovered that EPDM-jacketed welding wire is probably the big offender - and this is highly likely to be the jacket if the wire is a color besides black/grey. EPDM is apparently VERY susceptible to oil/fuel, as opposed to the Hypalon and Neoprene versions. (It's also WAY cheaper) I bet this is the majority of the problem wire you've found.

None of my wiring has been exposed to significant oil or fuel, and I wouldn't install wiring where it would normally be immersed, though it IS exposed to corrosive fumes in the vicinity of the batteries plus the usual salt air, condensation, etc. Suffice to say, that's probably why it has worked so well for me..

I have a hard time seeing how the temp rating of the wire (90 or 105 degree) would matter much in most boats - OTHER than the starter wiring - as we aren't using 2/0 or even #4 for it's ampacity, but rather for it's lower resistance, and I know my wiring (again, OTHER than the starter wire) is fused at the battery well below the ampacity of the 2/0 main feed. In looking at the NEC, the difference in ampacity for 2/0 between 90 degrees and 105 degrees is about 10%. 60 degree wire seems to be about 35% below 90 degree wire - a significant drop and beginning to approach the fuse rating. Starter wiring (or some similar high-amp circuit) is clearly a different story, where a high temp rating would seem to be required.

But it is good to know why welding wire in general is considered suspect - and I'll be sure to qualify my comments when I describe my boat wiring in the future. Thank You for the warning!

Hartley

Another p.s.: The reason I considered welding wire cheaper (even for the quality stuff I got) is that I didn't buy it "off the roll", but rather as end scraps, which seemed to be a common practice at my local welding shop - none of the pieces I needed was longer than about 12', so buying a number of short rolls at half price (or better) worked very well for me. Buying quality wire at the full price would not offer much of a bargain, as you noted.
HJG

 

[Rodd]

Anyone have experience with the
E-Z Red B795 Heavy Duty Crimping Tool

cost: $110.

specs are:
50 different crimp settings
No dies to replace or misalign
6 gauge through 250 MCM
not sure if worth the savings over Maine's recommended $170 tool. ?
Thanks.

Rodd

 

[Hartley]

Triangular crimp

Hi,

I'm sure Maine will chime in soon, but in the meantime, I would advise spending the extra $75 and get the tool he recommended. The E-Z Red makes a "triangular" crimp, which strikes me as a potential problem, as the angles inside the crimp are acute, and may not seal all the way across. It's better than a "hammer crimper", but not by enough to warrant not going "all the way" to the ideal tool, IMHO.

But no, I've never used one..

Hartley

 

[Steve Dion]

I get cables made at a local battery distributor for less than I can purchase the materials.