Choosing a hybrid wind/solar charge controller

[Maine Sail]

Maine Sail: I do not need any corrections in terminology from you! You are not the resident authority, your title is Moderator. You are knowledgable but be more aware that many of us are as well. Sharpshooting is a cheap way to make yourself sound more important than you are! I resent your attitude and your conduct. I am not an Electrician Engineer. I am both an Electronic Engineer and Industrial Engineer. Chief

Chief,

SG was absolutely correct in his point about incorrect terminology. Already in this thread we have a fridge that apparently uses just "1.25ah"..? Is this because of incorrect understandings in terminology or just a mathematical mistake? Hard to say but if we continue to use incorrect terminology or units it can lead to confusion.

I'm not sharp shooting you just asking for someone like yourself, an EE, whether electrical or electronics engineer you have at least a 4 year degree in this, to please try and use correct terminology. This is simple stuff and avoids confusion. If I recall you once berated me for using the word "Ampacity" saying there's "no such word", (your post here) yet ampacity actually is a word and is a correct term. From this can we guess you do care about using correct terminology?

I am merely asking everyone to try and use the correct terminology, including yourself. Hopefully when Patrick comes back he can explain how he arrived at "1.25Ah" for his fridge use and we can continue to help him..

 

[patrickkidd]

Chief,

SG was absolutely correct in his point about incorrect terminology. Already in this thread we have a fridge that apparently uses just "1.25ah"..? Is this because of incorrect understandings in terminology or just a mathematical mistake? Hard to say but if we continue to use incorrect terminology or units it can lead to confusion.

I'm not sharp shooting you just asking for someone like yourself, an EE, whether electrical or electronics engineer you have at least a 4 year degree in this, to please try and use correct terminology. This is simple stuff and avoids confusion. If I recall you once berated me for using the word "Ampacity" saying there's "no such word", (your post here) yet ampacity actually is a word and is a correct term. From this can we guess you do care about using correct terminology?

I am merely asking everyone to try and use the correct terminology, including yourself. Hopefully when Patrick comes back he can explain how he arrived at "1.25Ah" for his fridge use and we can continue to help him..

It was a brain fart stemming from fatique at work and dyslexic reversal leading to a math error. The correct number is 30ah per day.

 

[Chief RA]

Maine Sail:
The reason I indicate I am an Engineer sometimes is to help understand my experience and education with regard to my assistance info. I am obviously proud of being double Engineered since I started out in Electronics (sonar) in the US Navy as an E1 and progressively achieved the degrees and rank for that eventual status. Chief

 

[Bill Roosa]

Lets talk power and energy. That always leads to confusion. Just to make things interesting lets use joules and fortnights. My battery bank can store 345 joule-fortnights!!!

 

[Bill Roosa]

OOPS joule-fortnights is a power and you can't store power can you. Meant to say my battery bank can store 345 joule-fortnights/picoseconds.

 

[Stu Jackson]

HOWEVER, my requirements are still in flux which means my choice for battery capacity is still in flux. So I haven't gotten into the phase of checking my math yet. My question involves a qualitative survey of what others are/were using in their widely varying setups and requirements, including opinions on various brands. So I would still love to hear about your setups and brands.

Patrick,

This is further to my reply #14 on page one:

1. Your battery capacity should actually be one of the very first things you need to do. The Electrical Systems 101 link I provided earlier is something you should (must?!?) get familiar with. It also includes references to many of Maine Sail's Greatest Hits, as well as some good books; Charlie Wing's is among the best for basics without being too basic, and also gets into important details. You MUST make an energy budget FIRST or all else is essentially nonsense.

Battery storage capacity X 50% divided by ah use per day = how long you can last without any charging.

This is Basics 101. It's like figuring out how far you can go in your car: unless you know how big the tank (battery) is AND how many gph or mpg you use, you can't figure out how far you can go. Period.

Your requirements are not in flux, you just haven't done your basic homework first, from which all else follows.

You should also tell us how you intend to use your boat. I guessed you are not marina-hopping. But what do you want to do, beyond liveaboard? Cruise the coast and/or Delta or just anchor out a night or two every once in a while? The answers to that DO make a BIG difference. Does your slip have shorepower? Do you have a charger? What make is it and how big? What engine do you have? How big is the alternator? External or internal regulation? How is the AO wired and switched?

The way you are approaching this is bassackwards. Really.

2. Qualitative surveys? Solar is so ubiquitous these days that it is nigh near impossible to answer this. You're essentially asking: "What solar panels should I buy?" That's like asking "What car should I buy?" The possibilities, these days, are endless. Manufacturer? Size? Hard? Soft? Controllers are similar, and Maine Sail has discussed the pros and cons of PWM and MPPT endlessly. They are included in my link and also on his website (which is linked right at the top of my link). What more could you ask for?

3. Wind generators on boats on San Francisco Bay aren't that common. There's a reason for that and I gave it to you in reply #14. It really is a waste of $$. Your choice of an Iverson dodger was a very good one, and a good use of your $$. Save your $$ by NOT wasting it on a wind gen, and buy a better controller for your solar panels and buy more batteries. They made over 6,000 Catalina 30s, and skippers have documented how they maximized battery capacity on that particular boat over the years. I'm sure you can find them if you look.

 

[Chief RA]

Thanks for the levity Bill!(Engineer!) Chief

 

[Maine Sail]

It was a brain fart stemming from fatique at work and dyslexic reversal leading to a math error. The correct number is 30ah per day.

Ok this is better.

How do you use your boat?
Day sails only?
One or two nighters?
Weeks at a time?
Is it at a dock after each sail & charging?
Will the fridge be chilled before you leave or chilled during the trip?
How many hours or minutes each day do you run the motor?
What do you have for charging capability in terms of an alternator?
Internal or external regulator?
What kind of space do you have for batteries H X W X D?
Are you wanting to re-wire or reconfigure things or just use what you have there?
How is the switching and charging system currently wired?
Do you have two banks House & Start or just one bank?
How often are you ok with replacing batteries? 1-2 years, 4-5 years, 7+ years?

 

[Bill Roosa]

Looked like you guys needed it. it happens when folks have not had the life opportunity to grow a thick layer of callous on their personality.
My input, figure out the different ways you want to use the boat, weekend warrior, cruising live aboard..... then calculate the loads that your electrical system will see using the boat those ways. Part of how you use the boat is an understanding of how you intend (how often and for how long) to charge the batteries BTW. pick the worst case usage then size the battery bank and charging equipment to make that happen. I got real tired of doing the stuby pencle thing for all the different combinations of loads-bank size-production so I built a spreadsheet that lets you play around (and not make math mistakes) with the various combinations. email me for a copy
What I discovered is bigger battery banks are always better if you can fit them in the boat
use electricity as you create it (solar driving a reefer with a holding plate) to save the charge/discharge losses with storing/retrieving energy from the banks.
and probably most important reduce your loads to the max extent possible and your problems are much easier (aka cheaper) to solve.

 

[patrickkidd]

Patrick,

This is further to my reply #14 on page one:

1. Your battery capacity should actually be one of the very first things you need to do. The Electrical Systems 101 link I provided earlier is something you should (must?!?) get familiar with. It also includes references to many of Maine Sail's Greatest Hits, as well as some good books; Charlie Wing's is among the best for basics without being too basic, and also gets into important details. You MUST make an energy budget FIRST or all else is essentially nonsense.

Battery storage capacity X 50% divided by ah use per day = how long you can last without any charging.

This is Basics 101. It's like figuring out how far you can go in your car: unless you know how big the tank (battery) is AND how many gph or mpg you use, you can't figure out how far you can go. Period.

Your requirements are not in flux, you just haven't done your basic homework first, from which all else follows.

You should also tell us how you intend to use your boat. I guessed you are not marina-hopping. But what do you want to do, beyond liveaboard? Cruise the coast and/or Delta or just anchor out a night or two every once in a while? The answers to that DO make a BIG difference. Does your slip have shorepower? Do you have a charger? What make is it and how big? What engine do you have? How big is the alternator? External or internal regulation? How is the AO wired and switched?

The way you are approaching this is bassackwards. Really.

2. Qualitative surveys? Solar is so ubiquitous these days that it is nigh near impossible to answer this. You're essentially asking: "What solar panels should I buy?" That's like asking "What car should I buy?" The possibilities, these days, are endless. Manufacturer? Size? Hard? Soft? Controllers are similar, and Maine Sail has discussed the pros and cons of PWM and MPPT endlessly. They are included in my link and also on his website (which is linked right at the top of my link). What more could you ask for?

3. Wind generators on boats on San Francisco Bay aren't that common. There's a reason for that and I gave it to you in reply #14. It really is a waste of $$. Your choice of an Iverson dodger was a very good one, and a good use of your $$. Save your $$ by NOT wasting it on a wind gen, and buy a better controller for your solar panels and buy more batteries. They made over 6,000 Catalina 30s, and skippers have documented how they maximized battery capacity on that particular boat over the years. I'm sure you can find them if you look.

You all have a considerable amount of knowledge and a very helpful presence in this forum which I think you should be proud of. I have learned from you in the past and imagine I will continue to learn from you in the future.

I can only assume that I have simultaneously discovered and abused a fast-in-stone cultural assumption in this forum by asking a question for the sake of curiosity instead of to solve a particular problem. I can see now that my mistake was including the fact that I am indeed going to buy something in the near future, which is true, but which also made and continues to make some of you hear the question "what should I buy?" I will somehow find a way to replace the precious 20 to 30 man-minutes that you committed to reading and responding and re-responding to this thread. I can see that some of our minds run on AC, some on DC, and some in European voltages and some in North American voltages. I am nevertheless convinced that there is a common wattage that we as complex, self-organizing, autopoietic systems consume and produce. But not to worry, I will take the fall for our thrashing charge currents.

If I am right about the cultural assumption, that I should only ask specific questions originating from specific problems and should avoid open-ended questions born in curiosity, then ignore the next paragraph and from now on I promise only to use this forum as a black-box cheat-sheet whenever I am unsure about something having to do with my wonderful boat(s).

Otherwise, I will correct my mistake by rephrasing my original question, this time for the official ship's log:

Hi there!

What wind and solar equipment have others used, regardless of their (probably widely varying) requirements and desires? I would love to hear what brands you have enjoyed and not enjoyed, what your sailing environment is like, and why you chose what you did. I am not trying to solve a specific problem here, but would love to hear stories about what worked for you and what didn't, what was fun and what was not fun, and what successes let you sleep at night and what failures you still nightmare about.

Cheers.

 

[patrickkidd]

Ok this is better.

How do you use your boat?
Day sails only?
One or two nighters?
Weeks at a time?
Is it at a dock after each sail & charging?
Will the fridge be chilled before you leave or chilled during the trip?
How many hours or minutes each day do you run the motor?
What do you have for charging capability in terms of an alternator?
Internal or external regulator?
What kind of space do you have for batteries H X W X D?
Are you wanting to re-wire or reconfigure things or just use what you have there?
How is the switching and charging system currently wired?
Do you have two banks House & Start or just one bank?
How often are you ok with replacing batteries? 1-2 years, 4-5 years, 7+ years?

Main Sail, I will get back to your thoughtful questions as soon as I shift into problem-solving mode. I have no doubt you will be very helpful.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Cheers.

Aha! You grokked it! Getting "entangled" in technical terms and systems is a completely different question, as you have now determined.

I simply repeat though, based on your new question, that you are:

essentially asking: "What solar panels should I buy?" That's like asking "What car should I buy?" The possibilities, these days, are endless.

Endless possibilities questions will rarely, if ever, receive responses other than: I got this, he got this.

If you re-read your new question, it comes out like this:

What equipment have others used regardless of their (probably widely varying) requirements and desires. I would love to hear what brands you have enjoyed and not enjoyed, what your sailing environment is like, and why you chose what you did.

Right?

So, specificity really helps. What equipment? Solar panels and wind generators? Or anything else?

The original forum sections on this website used to have great "How to ask a question" sticky topics. I wish I could find them again, 'cuz they relate to you new question perfectly.

Patrick, we're really tryin' to help you, but you'll need to help us to help you, too. Just look at the answers so far.

Your "waxing poetic" was quite a fun read, too. Thanks.

 

[patrickkidd]

What equipment? Solar panels and wind generators? Or anything else?

Wind generators, solar panels, batteries, and charge controllers.

I rather enjoyed reading the responses from John Nantz and Chief RA about their own setups and would love to read more responses like that. And I think my own first response about the status of the market probably also contributed to the spirit of this rephrased question.

 

[Bill Roosa]

there is also several configs of hydro powered generation. props that are towed behind the boat or using the boats own prop and shaft.
More off the beaten path is solar thermal stirlings. at 50% ish efficiency the Great Roosack predicts that they will take over the solar industry as solar cells are only 14% efficient.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Wind generators, solar panels, batteries, and charge controllers.

OK, I'll bite.

Wind: not required where you sail, unless you tell us more about more extensive cruising outside The Bay Area, or if your slip has no power and you're as you say living aboard.

Solar: now a commodity. Kyrocea gets rave reviews. You can do your own homework on this, too. Why? 'Cuz this forum has many skippers with solar, but they are smaller systems, usually. Wanna find out more, do some reading on www.cruisersforum.com.

Batteries: don't buy them at West Marine. Frankly, though, if you haven't figured out what batteries (type & size) you are going to use, asking this is like asking your mom which girl to marry before you've ever had a date.

Charge controllers: read Maine Sail's excellent writeups, in my Elec 101 ink or on his website.

 

[patrickkidd]

OK, I'll bite.

Wind: not required where you sail, unless you tell us more about more extensive cruising outside The Bay Area, or if your slip has no power and you're as you say living aboard.

Solar: now a commodity. Kyrocea gets rave reviews. You can do your own homework on this, too. Why? 'Cuz this forum has many skippers with solar, but they are smaller systems, usually. Wanna find out more, do some reading on www.cruisersforum.com.

Batteries: don't buy them at West Marine. Frankly, though, if you haven't figured out what batteries (type & size) you are going to use, asking this is like asking your mom which girl to marry before you've ever had a date.

Charge controllers: read Maine Sail's excellent writeups, in my Elec 101 ink or on his website.

Stu, what setups have you had and enjoyed or not enjoyed? Care to share?

 

[Stu Jackson]

what setups have you had and enjoyed or not enjoyed?

There was this blonde in Cabo one spring break...

Really, Patrick? Setup about what? I have a 390ah house bank (3 grp 21s US Battery) and a 60ah reserve bank with my AO fed to the house bank and a 1-2-B switch as a USE only switch with a 130A Yandina combiner. I have been running this successfully for the past 15 years, anchoring out once or twice a month for at least two nights. No built-in solar although I do use an old flex panel for when I'm away from the boat with an inexpensive PWM controller. No wind gen, no windlass. Fridge, some LED lights, autopilot (ST3000) and documented 100ah per day load (see my link from #14). Charger is a Freedom 15 I/C with a Link 2000 battery monitor.

What else, specifically, would you like to know?

 

[John Nantz]

Patrick - This what we’ve used for the solar panel part of equation. Came up with this “quick and dirty” panel mounting as a temporary solution for a short cruise over a decade ago while I tried to come up with a better solution but other higher priority things keept coming up.

On the design side, due to the panel width they had to be elevated somewhat higher than the lifelines so access to the stern cleats could be maintained. The panels can hang straight down when not needed or elevated in 45º increments up {Edit: only limited by the various lengths of PVC support pipes] to 45º above horizontal. So far, for angle supports, I’ve just used three sections of 1/2-inch PVC [per panel] with the ends padded to help prevent slippage [and damage to the panel vinyl backing]. Each PVC piece has a short tether to tie it off to the lifeline so it isn’t lost overboard. Besides holding the panel up one also needs to hold the panel down so the wind doesn’t catch it and a shock cord has worked well for that purpose. [Back when I got the panels they cost ~ $500 apiece and that was considered a good buy]

[Edit: The regulator is a Blue Sky SB2000E "solar boost' from at least over twelve years ago and was the perfect item for the panels at the time. Haven't kept up with what is the new gear on the market but I can't say enough good about how well this one worked. Foggy, cloudy, rainy day the panels were able to keep up with the refrigeration, forced air heater, and other more minimal loads.]

The white “wood” is prime-coated “plastic wood” from Home Depot which never did get painted.

What I would really like to find is some sort of relatively inexpensive way to adjust the panel angle up and down via some device, perhaps 12v powered. As an idea, greenhouses typically have ceiling vents/hatches/(whatever) that have powered hinge-like gizmos to help maintain temperature or humidity.

With regard to shading, there seems to be a lot of concern about shade blocking the panels. With these Kyocera panels this has NOT been a problem. “Read my lips, this has NOT been a problem!” That’s right. And this includes the boat’s mast, boom (even with the sail flaked and sail cover on}, backstays (split backstay), and even a somewhat nearby dock piling. There is no bimini so that isn’t included and when I say “not a problem,” and realize I’m not nick picking it.

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?attachments/100_3553-jpg.41464/

This is with both panels deployed. The stern is set out slightly so as not to cause a problem with passers by on the dock.
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?attachments/100_2915-jpg.41440/

 

[Gene Neill]

What wattage are those panels, John? Your mounting arrangement is similar to the one on my C22, which has worked great for us. They articulate similarly to yours, and this capability does make a world of difference, doesn't it! This pic shows them angled to catch sun on the port side, with the starboard panel at full elevation and the port panel straight at the sun:

On our Albin Vega, I plan to either put panels on a bimini, or build a rack similar to what these two Swedes have on their Vega:

 

[cjm1]

Same type of solar panel (75 watt) on an aluminum frame with one fixed mounted the other with car top carrier suction cups. It works well on our flush deck and if in the way just unplug and stow below.