Catalina 27 - Asbestos Construction

[Maine Sail]

Was this post edited???

No it was not edited. Brian made mention of that. We have numerous instances were people have tried to use this site as a bully pulpit against a manufacturer and we've been put in the middle many times. We simply do not allow overt brand bashing or unsubstantiated claims against a manufacturer unless the claims can be substantiated.. Discussing issues is 100% fine, unless that is all you do against one particular brand, constantly.

I remember reading a part about the how important is was to SBO to maintain a 'stellar' reputation with the builders. It so, why was it removed? And honesty, why do you care?

Because above and beyond this being a FREE sailing forum, it is a BUSINESS! This is a business that sells parts for many brands of boats. Some of these parts are directly supplied via the manufacturer, Hunter comes to mind, so our customers have access to these parts and in many instances at far less than going direct to the manufacturer.. In some cases Phil has sourced "out of production" or obsolete parts by having and maintaining a good relationship with a builder. Not all are "friendly" but we still care about not allowing them to be tarnished without due cause. We "care" because in some cases maintaining these relationships helps keep the DOORS OPEN... This is why we "may" ask for a "source" when a claim is made against a manufacturer.

And in the bigger context, is that more important than this type of information being discussed?

We have never limited discussion of valid issues, INCLUDING THIS ONE. We may ask for substantiated data when claims are made that could hurt a manufacturers reputation or that may be untrue or potentially misrepresented. Not really a heck of a lot to ask...

This groups tearing into the OP and other and using the justification of 'wording' and 'phraseology' is terrible.

He was simply asked to clarify the statements by one of the moderators. Some other posters/members also took issue with the post and reported it. It is how we wound up here.....

I owned two Catalina's of this vintage and was up to my elbows in glass. I wanted to know what was going on.

And we have NOT limited you from knowing what was going on at all. In fact asking for "clarification" aided in a better understanding of the subject.

Seemed too many here were worried about poor Catalina, or what Catalina Corp might think. That's a shame.

What is a shame is that some here can't understand this FREE forum is 100% supported by a business. Again we DO NOT limit discussions of legitimate "issues" and we have not limited it in this thread just asked for "clarification" on the claims..

Also this thread DOES NOT fall into brand bashing at all but the OP did come across as one that needed some clarification.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Back on topic

Okay, what have we learned?

Q: Do vintage Catalina 27's have asbestos?
A: Probably but only inferred from standard industry practices of the era.

Q: Do J24's have asbestos?
A: You betcha.

Q: Do other brands have asbestos?
A: Yes, including but not limited to the entire Newport line of the era.

Q: Is there an asbestos cloud hanging in our boat cabins?
A: Not unless the components containing asbestos have been damaged or otherwise disturbed. Concerns are a personal matter but are generally considered less than minimal.

Q: Were Catalina 27's built in Canada?
A: Yes. For the record, Catalina 22's were also built in Australia and Europe under different names.

Q: Have there been any incidents of the guys who built our vintage boats contracting mesothelioma and dying as a result?
A: Sadly, yes.

Have we learned anything else?

 

[Jackdaw]

What is a shame is that some here can't understand this FREE forum is 100% supported by a business. Again we DO NOT limit discussions of legitimate "issues" and we have not limited it in this thread just asked for "clarification" on the claims..

Also this thread DOES NOT fall into brand bashing at all but the OP did come across as one that needed some clarification.

Maine,

I have NO issue at all with the commercial aspect of this site. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the underlying dynamics. But I don't agree with your notion of this being FREE to 'us', that's kind of an old concept. When something is 'free' to internet users, it really means these users are YOUR product. Its us being here that drives all of the sites revenue. In a sense you sell us, our hits, our clicks, our comments, our pageviews. We both should look at this forum and other like it as a quid pro quo. It it was not, SBO would not have a forum.

But back to my original posting; I'm curious why do you have to maintain good relationships with builders? I don't seem them advertise here, and your store I suppose competes with them in the parts and accessories business. And why does it matter so much what 3rd parties say on this forum? I would assume that the DCMA would give you safe harbor against things that 3rd parties post here; thats well worn case law. Is it your position that these companies would somehow bear a commercial grudge against SBO if something bad was said here that happened to not be true? How would that manifest itself? When MacGregor goes out of business, do they fail the test?

I'm not trying to be augmentative, just trying to understand. This struck a nerve with me, and other it seems as well.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Have we learned anything else?

Is it only C27s or other Catalinas? Were any other Catalinas licensed to be made in Canada? Is it only the ones made in Canada?

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Is it only C27s or other Catalinas? Were any other Catalinas licensed to be made in Canada? Is it only the ones made in Canada?

I don't know.

In the course of this thread the OP's comment that Catalina 27's were built under license in Canada was challenged ("I am not aware of any foreign built Catalina's") so I went looking for myself. I found that in fact C-27's were built in Canada as the OP said and also learned the C-22 info as part of the search. Having found my answer I stopped looking further.

edit: found more foreign built info. I guess I'd better cite my source for those who are not aware of any foreign built Catalina's

http://sailboatdata.com/view_builder.asp?builder_id=72
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In 1975 Russell Marine (U.K.) made an arrangement with US builder, Catalina Yachts to build some of their models under license and selling them in Europe as JAGUARS. (JAGUAR 22, 25, 27, and 30). Russel Marine built it's last boat in 1980.[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Man, I'm trying to step away from this and then another post pops up and I'm drawn back in.

Also this thread DOES NOT fall into brand bashing at all but the OP did come across as one that needed some clarification.

Actually it was your own moderator who first mentioned brand bashing within the context of this thread, post #49. It did not appear anyone was even thinking that way, well except for maybe one particularly annoyed C-27 owner, until your own guy brought it up.

Maine,
I've been remiss in not thanking you sooner for hanging in there on this. I know I've been nitpicky but I saw an ugliness in this thread and wanted to call attention to it in the hopes it wouldn't be repeated. Some of the stuff that went on here is not good for the forum and not good for the business that supports it.

Thanks again

 

[Ross]

I would bet good money that if asbestos had/has been used as a filler at any time in this industry it was used by all of the the makers of boats in the same market sector.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

In defense of the moderators, they have a monumental task riding herd on a forum of this size. It's likely they were alerted by a disgruntled Catalina 27 owner (who read things into the original post that simply weren't there) and tried to defuse the situation, some better than others. Let's give them some credit for trying. There were three moderators involved and I can report as fact the site administrator was involved in the background. As I said and appreciated, Maine Sail hung in there long after the others departed. He actually admitted at one point the moderation could have been better and I respected that. It's a thankless job.

I know it doesn't change the outcome but can we separate the problems that emerged here from those who were trying to rectify them?

 

[Scott B]

READ my posts.

Did take a weird turn here, huh?

(Note to future posters: Don't say anything about a Catalina, you will be dealt with harshly)..

My response was to this post only and was also to point out that anyone starting a post with allegations against a brand or manufacturer will be asked for proof of their statement. We cannot catch all of the statements, especially if they are contained within threads. We can't read every line of every post. That's why theres a report button.

You did not seem to be reading what is being said, instead keep putting words in my mouth. I simply asked for proof from the OP his source of information. He was attacked by the Mods. As MS said, we cannot read and digest every single post. There are far too many. I scan the titles and will look into something that twigs my curiosity. A hot topic such as asbestos, threat or no threat, needs to be substantiated. As I've stated many time, it was my opinion that the OP stated a FACT. I asked for proof of that FACT. Read the original post.

 

[Scott B]

Was this post edited???

I remember reading a part about the how important is was to SBO to maintain a 'stellar' reputation with the builders. It so, why was it removed? And honesty, why do you care? And in the bigger context, is that more important than this type of information being discussed? This groups tearing into the OP and other and using the justification of 'wording' and 'phraseology' is terrible. I owned two Catalina's of this vintage and was up to my elbows in glass. I wanted to know what was going on. Seemed too many here were worried about poor Catalina, or what Catalina Corp might think. That's a shame.

I have no idea where this is coming from Get your facts straight before you accuse me of something.

 

[Jackdaw]

I have no idea where this is coming from Get your facts straight before you accuse me of something.

Please re-read that. Is was not an accusation. It is a question. And Maine cleared it up (it was in another moderators post) . But the issue about the treatment of the OP is still open, as is the issue of why that happens. You can collectively choose to answer that or not. But please do not over-read things in my words.

 

[Brian D]

Seeing that there is no more discussion about the original topic, and seeing that this thread has taken a huge turn, I think it best we close it. It will be up to Phil to open the discussion if he feels there is more information regarding the OP.

 

[Phil Herring]

Looks like I picked the wrong day to sleep in.

I feel I should add the final word to this thread regarding moderation, site policy, and my personal bias.

For starters, I am not aware of any policy on this site, ever, about maintaining a "stellar reputation" with builders. (FWIW, of the four active builders represented here, one has been cooperative and extremely helpful from Day 1, another has threatened to sue us, another has been modestly helpful when requested, and another has strategically ignored us for 15 years.) Our reputation with the four of them is what it is and I cannot ever recall removing a post because a builder would think poorly of it.

While this operation is a business, we try _very_ diligently to separate the public responsibility of the forum from the business operation. We don't get it right every time, but that has been at the foundation of our company's values since the beginning.

That said, we are undoubtedly more sensitive to brand bashing than other, similar forums. First, because our sites are organized around brand ownership and if you own a certain boat you're not logging in to read that they are built with prison labor and only safe in small ponds.

Second, but most important, it is my strong personal belief that boat builders are more valuable to us if they remain in business. (Citation: any owner of ann O'Day, Irwin, Endeavor, ad infinitum.) The economic problems since 2008 have damaged every builder. It has also damaged their suppliers. It has caused supply chain problems, customer service issues, distribution and service shortages, all of which roll up into incidents that are judged as quality slip-ups from their pre-2008 standards.

The continued existence of these companies cannot be taken for granted, and it is in our common interest to root for their survival.

When I say this, I do not mean we should forgive a manufacturer their mistakes. They are responsible for their errors and how those are perceived by the marketplace.

However, since 2008 we have a seen a greater number of owners attempt to use our forums as a way to bully, threaten, and damage builders with the leverage of public opinion. We all know the internet is a very powerful tool for that. (Citation: ever had something embarrassing get indexed by Google?)

Sometimes people send us evidence of an author's malicious intent and we act accordingly. But usually we have to use our judgement and yes, sometimes that means parsing words.

I can tell you that Scott, Maine Sail, and I all had the same reaction to this thread because it fit the profile of a disgruntled owner. (Brian was also on this thread right away but I don't recall if he voiced an early opinion.)

Maybe we jumped the gun a little but moderators have to make a call and there's nothing to base it on but what's on the screen. I was right there with them on this thread and given what we had to look at I would make the same call again. Perhaps we could have asked the OP for clarification, and perhaps he could have asked his question as more of a question. Sometimes threads go sideways, it's unfortunate, we all learn from our experiences and move on. I hope that the new thread Maine started will get some activity regarding the substance of the topic.

One final word about moderation. You may have noticed that SBO forums have tighter moderation than many other sailing forums. Scott B, Maine Sail, and Brian D work with an incredibly difficult set of standards that require judgement calls every day. They work hard to make this a forum where new sailors can feel safe, but diverse opinions and intense discussions can still run their course. That is remarkably difficult and leaves them open to constant criticism.

Their job takes considerable time, focus, and impartial decisions worthy of a judge. Well, better than many judges. They do this as volunteers from their commitment to the sailing community. It is a royal pain in the ass. Their work largely defines these forums, and if you like what you see here some appreciation is in order, too.

They are human, you are human, and you may not always agree with them. But from where I sit, they are best moderators of any forum I know.

Sorry for the Wall of Text. This thread will remain closed but if you have additional comments please PM me.