Catalina 27 - Asbestos Construction

[Scott B]

Since the challenge has been placed to provide some kind of empirical evidence of asbestos in fiberglass, we will wait to see if the OP can provide the data.

I posted this query in good faith hoping to locate anyone who might offer an informed opinion on the presence of asbestos in the Catalina 27 construction process. I find it strange that "some" respondents see this post as some kind of nuisance distraction to the usual discourse on this web site and therefore deserving of immediate elimination by some arbitrary moderation process. |I am the one canvassing this site for "emprirical" evidence that someone might provide based on a credible source I mentioned already. Thanks for your assistance those who offered adult responses

No, you posted it as fact, not a query.

You also did not provide any source or backup to substantiate that fact. Hence my question and Brian's repsonse.

Too often people come on to post misinformation to stir up the pot. That's where we come in. We cannot let threads stay as such and we especially see this kind of post from new members.

You've provided your source and as such will keep the thread open for discussion. However, please refrain from name calling etc. in the future.

Thanks,

 

[chambao]

The Catalina 27 was built under licence in BC Canada, for several years in the 70's-early 80's. It was only for domestic sales not exports.
I own at 27 so thasts why I posted the query pertaining to that model.
The person who built the boats under licence in Canada owned a 27 and it is he who told the fleet director they were built using asbestos during somke part of the process. I am not an irresponsible person, and never have been and I take exception to your rude remark, which was not in the leasr constructive or helpful.

Your mistake is in singling out the Catalina 27........ THAT is irresponsible...

You lumped the Canadien Catalina 27's into the same pool as all others. I was unaware that there was any licensing of that nature anyhow.... if there was, I would like to know, before purchase, where it was built.

I have never seen a C 27 advertised as a "canadian built" model.... have you?

If.... as has been indicated by some of the other posters... it was an industry practice....then you should have said ALL or MANY fiberglass sailboats of the area used asbestos..... but you didn't. In any event it's poor practice to say "I know a guy who knew a guy who said........"

If you're afraid to go on a Catalina 27...... you should be afraid to go on ANY boat before asbestos was banned in construction.... and any that were built in countries that may have different construction standards.

 

[Joe]

I posted this query in good faith hoping to locate anyone who might offer an informed opinion on the presence of asbestos in the Catalina 27 construction process. I find it strange that "some" respondents see this post as some kind of nuisance distraction to the usual discourse on this web site and therefore deserving of immediate elimination by some arbitrary moderation process. |I am the one canvassing this site for "emprirical" evidence that someone might provide based on a credible source I mentioned already. Thanks for your assistance those who offered adult responses

That's not the way you asked it.... You said any Catalina 27, not a few that may or may have not been licensed to build in Canada, as if you are a lawyer looking for a class action suit.... I am not aware of any foreign built Catalinas.... but you might check with www.catalina27.org for confirmation.

If you're serious.... your first call should be to the industry associations, Catalina Yachts, government agencies, etc. that are directly involved in construction and regulation..... that would be in Canada also, which may have had different standards at the time.

Not to a forum of anonymous sailing enthusiasts who have emotional attachments to their beloved fiberglass boats.

I have read many, many articles on boat and fiberglass repair.... safety precautions when sanding, drilling, cutting etc are always recommended with no reference to asbestos..... just the other things like fiberglass and chemicals.. I have never read any reports of random asbestos particles floating around for years after the repairs......... Is that the type of "Informed Opinion" you're seeking?

 

[chambao]

Very helpful post. Thanks Old Skool Neil for your remarks. Your confirmation
at least allows me to ensure proper protection when drilling the fiberglass etc. Have a great day.

Here's your source - - ME!

I can report first hand that asbestos was used in the sailboat industry up to at least 1973 and likely beyond. It was used in primarily two areas: Woven asbestos wrap for hot exhaust sections and as a thickening agent for resin.

Thickened resin was used for a number of purposes and in a variety of viscosities. Depending on the structural requirements different fill materials were used. For lightweight cosmetic fillers, resin was thickened with a phenolic product called microballoons. For structural purposes, asbestos was used. At Capital Yachts we called it mish-mash. It had tremendous strength and adhesion properties.

The viscosity could be controlled by the amount of asbestos added, from runny thin and pourable to the consistency of dough and everything in between. On the Newport 30 the fiberglass keel stump was filled with thin mish-mash encapsulating the keel bolts before woven roving was laminated over the area to form a flat bilge. The thicker mish-mash was used to fill in around the shaft logs before bonding, under the strut foot to form an aligned bolting base, under the engine pan and mast compression post as the interior liner was lowered into the hull to eliminate voids in those areas.

The ground asbestos fibers were stored in open sacks on the shop floor, we would scoop it out with our hands and stir it into resin in open discarded one gallon tomato sauce cans from the local pizzaria.

I've lost a number of friends from those days to mesothelioma, most of them in the 1990's. It takes about 20 years from exposure for the symptoms to emerge but once symptomatic it goes fast, like less than a year. For me, I used to get chest X-rays annually up to about the 30 year mark since my last exposure, all clear.

 

[Joe]

I don't quite see how I'm perceived as stirring up the pot by asking a legitimate question about asbestos construction on the Catalina 27.
I've used this site for several years without criticism or anyone questioning my motives, and usually have received supportive, helpful replies. This occasion is the exception. Now you allege I'm name calling. Please point out where in my post I have called someone a name? I have always been respectful with my words on this site so I am a little confused by your remark?

You have singled out the C27..... not realizing that the process would likely have been the same for the C22, C25 and C30 models of the same era.

Then... after your resource was requested... you admitted that it was someone known to someone you know...... nothing in print, no name? ... and that the subject boats were four C27's built under license in Canada.

I ask you this......... how do you tell a Canadian built boat from a US built one? Have you had anyone check your boat specifically for the dangers that concern you.....

If I came out and said....."I heard that owning a Cat27 could take 5 years off your life expectancy..." how would you react?

 

[Jackdaw]

For me, I used to get chest X-rays annually up to about the 30 year mark since my last exposure, all clear.

Good for you, Brother!



Now, back to our regularly scheduled dung-fight, already in progress. Nannies v truth-seekers. I used to have to go to Sailing Anarchy for this level of enlightened discourse.

 

[chambao]

Frankly I think its time I moved on. This thread has gone from sensible to senseless to hostile.

You have singled out the C27..... not realizing that the process would likely have been the same for the C22, C25 and C30 models of the same era.

Then... after your resource was requested... you admitted that it was someone known to someone you know...... nothing in print, no name? ... and that the subject boats were four C27's built under license in Canada.

I ask you this......... how do you tell a Canadian built boat from a US built one? Have you had anyone check your boat specifically for the dangers that concern you.....

If I came out and said....."I heard that owning a Cat27 could take 5 years off your life expectancy..." how would you react?

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Very helpful post. Thanks Old Skool Neil for your remarks. Your confirmation at least allows me to ensure proper protection when drilling the fiberglass etc. Have a great day.

No problem. For those of us who worked in the industry back then regardless of which side of the border, a clear X-ray IS a good day.

Before this thread degenerates to borders, boat brands and how many were built here or there (maybe too late) recognize that boats of all brands and country of manufacture have chemical nastiness and prudent precaution should be exercised when working on them.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Perhaps an Apology is Due ...........................

Thanks for your assistance those who offered adult responses

............... from those who offered a somewhat less than serious response (myself included) is due.

Aside from a few laughs, I think what was intended here is to show that the dangers from asbestos are often overblown. Don't get me wrong, mesothelioma is a deadly disease, but the scenarios under which it's contracted are horrendous .............. no breathing protection, great clouds of asbestos dust, no post removal precautions. It wouldn't matter if you were working with silica (silicosis), coal (black lung), or cotton fabrics (brown lung disease or byssinosis) you'd still be in trouble if you removed it under the same conditions.

And here come the nay-sayers ................... "why, just look at asbestos and you're number's up". I've got to wonder just how many people have contracted asbestosis or mesothelioma by removing vinyl asbestos flooring ? How many people have died from asbestos in ceiling tiles, drywall mud, carpeting, and all the rest of the etceteras which contain microscopic amounts of asbestos.

Keep in mind that asbestos removal is a billion dollar industry and fear is what keeps it going. And common sense is the enemy of fear.

Honestly, if there is any asbestos (and I highly doubt it as glass has much better mechanical qualities than many forms of asbestos) in your Catalina 27 fiberglass, just treat it with common sense. Soak any cutting or drilling work (which causes dust) with water and a bit of soap detergent. If you're worried about the interior, spray it with furniture oil on the exposed fiberglass. Avoid HUGE amounts of dust and you'll be just fine.

Go sailing and don't worry about the "GREAT SAILBOAT ASBESTOS DISASTER". There's lot's of other people around who'll do the worrying for you.

 

[Jackdaw]

If I came out and said....."I heard that owning a Cat27 could take 5 years off your life expectancy..." how would you react?

Joe.... Owning? How about building?? At least one person posting here has given first-person testimony that this happened. He now lives with this risk. Have a heart.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

I'm not one of the alarmists. I think asbestos and similar materials can be managed safely without total bans but as for determining risk by exposure concentration, the dear wife of a friend died three years ago to mesothelioma. Her exposure was second-hand. Her husband worked in a food processing plant and his clothes were covered in asbestos fibers after a day's work. She breathed them when laundering his clothes.

He, with the full exposure, has no symptoms. She's dead.

 

[tommays]

Again this a mainstream 90s product not some stuff obscure off brand chines brand

The only good news is i was always a respirator freak because the two part paints were always so dangerous

 

[Steve Dion]

"Friable" is the word for the dangerous stuff, whether or not it may be present. It means loose in the air. If used, it's already embedded and unless you're drilling or sanding, it shouldn't get loose.

Stu: Our local school district spent over $30 mil on our high schoos to remove asbestos. What they should have done is painted all of the heating ducts (which would have sealed the stuff) and built another high school. It would have been fine and the teachers and the students would have been protected from the potential dangers.

 

[Steve Dion]

Asbestos, lead paint..... It is all good when used properly. Unfortunately the ol' pipe fitters and garage mechanics did not know about the possible effects of inhaling asbestos dust. Lead paint, well painters still like the stuff and if you are not sucking on the wood it is probably still a superior product to latex based stuff.

What difference does it make to the new generations they are inhaling aresol and glue. It is not like they have not been warned!

 

[Brian D]

Chambao, we appreciate the good faith. However, we have had some Peter's crying wolf and creating issues with manufactures. SBO has an outstanding reputation with boat manufacture and we wish to keep it that way. Hence the challenge. Please, do not take it to heart. This is how we keep SBO on outstanding terms with all concerned.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Stu: Our local school district spent over $30 mil on our high schoos to remove asbestos. What they should have done is painted all of the heating ducts (which would have sealed the stuff) and built another high school. It would have been fine and the teachers and the students would have been protected from the potential dangers.

You're right. It's call "encapsulating" the bad stuff. Would have been a MUCH better solution.

In essence, any asbestos in a boat is going to be encapsulated anyway, unless one drills or sands, right?

 

[Stu Jackson]

I was informed today that Catalina 27's built from 1975 onwards contain embedded asbestos... Any thoughts or knowledge on this issue?

chambao, please come back.

Had your OP included "for the four C27s made under license in Canada" you may well have received different replies. It could well be that ALL Catalinas and many other boats had or have asbestos in them.

In hindsight, you may well understand why you received some of the replies you did. It wasn't until later that you clarified your OP.

In many cases, their concerns were well expressed.

I've owned two 1981 Catalinas, a 22 and a 25, and our 34 is a 1986 model. I've drilled and sanded inside and outside. Still here. :dance: or ???

 

[Old Skool Neil]

I wanted to reinforce that to my knowledge asbestos was not a component of the lamination process. It was used in specific areas for specific reasons as I mentioned in my original post.

[off topic but germane to this thread]
For those who care about this forum in general, go back through this thread and look for where things took a dark turn. I did and have a pretty good idea where it happened.

Moderator, this isn't new. I've been a target of it myself in the past.

Chambao, I hope your concerns were addressed.

 

[chambao]

Yes, thanks, I got a couple of useful answers to my specific enquiry and appreciate it.
There are clearly other forum issues unrelated to my post which were a distraction and which I unwittingly got caught up in, but there's no excuse for some forum members to use demeaning, sarcastic, or hostile language. Anyway, time to move on...

 

[anchorclanker]

I ask you this......... how do you tell a Canadian built boat from a US built one?

It says "eh" after Catalina.