Catalina 27 - Asbestos Construction

[kenn]

In grade 5, we used to use asbestos-based modelling clay in art class. I can recall the teacher at the back of the classroom scooping gray powder into a bucket then mixing it all up. I'm still here

There are other 'dusts' besides asbestos (silica dust, fiberglass dust etc) that can cause lung problems, but I believe the asbestos fiber is the smallest and nastiest of the bunch, so for that reason it's not suitable for most consumer products, especially where fibers are shed into the air as part of the natural use or decay of the product.

I'm certain that any asbestos used in fiberglassing is well and truly encapsulated and therefore safe, and we should all be wearing respirators whenever cutting/sanding fiberglass anyway :naughty:, so I wouldn't consider a pre-75 fiberglass boat to be any sort of additional respiratory hazard.

 

[Joe]

It says "eh" after Catalina.

Catalin-eh........ good one. Comes with plaid sails and a respirator

Listen you guys....... when someone makes an unsubstantiated claim against any particular boat based on hearsay then he should expect to be challenged.

We have to protect the integrity of this forum..... otherwise .... what's to keep anyone from posting any prejudicial, non supported opinion they please that may influence another with less experience?

If the original question had been: "Does anyone know the extent of asbestos use in fiberglass sailboat construction and does it pose a problem today?" that would qualify as an interesting subject that wouldn't offend anyone.

This thread, however, did not begin that way.... I implore you to re read the original statement.....

I'm sorry that chambao's feelings were hurt. I'm even more sorry that he doesn't see the issue with his post that caused so many of us to challenge it.

 

[Steve Dion]

chambao, please come back.

I've owned two 1981 Catalinas, a 22 and a 25, and our 34 is a 1986 model. I've drilled and sanded inside and outside. Still here. :dance: or ???

Stu: Yes you are here, but for how much longer?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Steve,

THUD


Joe, well said. I hope the OP reads it and understands.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Y'know guys, I'm reading this entirely different. The OP said he was told something about the Catalina 27, it surprised him and does anybody here have any such knowledge or opinion? I've read it more than a few times and that's what he said. He was in disbelief himself.

• Reply #2 "don't believe it" He said himself it surprised him. By reply #14 maybe he should believe it.
• Reply #5 "Please share where your information came from or provide the members substantiated proof of this allegation." yet no such demand was made to Reply #4 which alleged as fact "The only boat I know it exists in for a fact is in the vermiculite used to stiffen the keel sumps on early J24s " That was accepted without reference and singled out a particular boat. Double standard, no?
• Replies #9 & 10 "Unless there is a factual citation noting the content, I think this post should be dumped into an appropriate container. " and "Since the challenge has been placed to provide some kind of empirical evidence of asbestos in fiberglass, we will wait to see if the OP can provide the data." Read reply #4 again, no problem with that but a big problem is developing over the original post for some reason. Again, the OP said he was told something, it surprised him and did the forum know anything further?
• Reply #15 The OP provides the source of his information.
• Reply #18 takes issue with singling out the Catalina 27 (no problem with singling out the J24 though?) and with the idea that any Catalina 27's were built in Canada. BTW, the OP was correct that some were.
• Reply #19 The OP takes exception to some of the comments. I can't say I blame him.
• Reply #20 "No, you posted it as fact, not a query." No he didn't. He said he was told something that surprised him and asked the forum for help. Same reply "You also did not provide any source or backup to substantiate that fact." No, he came here looking for help with just that.
• Reply #22 is still challenging the idea of Canadian built Catalina 27's even though it had been established as fact. Further, "I have read many, many articles on boat and fiberglass repair.... safety precautions when sanding, drilling, cutting etc are always recommended with no reference to asbestos" yet it had already been established asbestos was used in the industry. Now who's alleging false information? Finally in the same reply, " Is that the type of "Informed Opinion" you're seeking?" Dripping with attitude, nice.
• Reply # 25 More attitude.
• Reply #27 from the OP "Frankly I think its time I moved on. This thread has gone from sensible to senseless to hostile." Can't say I disagree.
• Reply #37 "chambao, please come back." Forget it, he's gone.
• Reply #42 takes issue with the way the original post was phrased, parsing nearly every word, that the original post was offensive. Sorry, I don't see it that way at all.
• Reply #44 "Joe, well said. I hope the OP reads it and understands." I think he understands just fine.

Sorry guys but I think he was jumped on by a few members and his post was twisted to say something it didn't. I'm glad the asbestos discussion carried on through the other stuff, good information was presented.

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

Y'know guys, I'm reading this entirely different. The OP said he was told something about the Catalina 27, it surprised him and does anybody here have any such knowledge or opinion? I've read it more than a few times and that's what he said. He was in disbelief himself.


[*] Reply #2 "don't believe it" He said himself it surprised him. By reply #14 maybe he should believe it.
[*] Reply #5 "Please share your "informant" and provide substantial proof of this allegation. " yet no such demand was made to Reply #4 which alleged as fact "The only boat I know it exists in for a fact is in the vermiculite used to stiffen the keel sumps on early J24s " That was accepted without reference and singled out a particular boat. Double standard, no?
[*] Replies #9 & 10 "Unless there is a factual citation noting the content, I think this post should be dumped into an appropriate container. " and "Since the challenge has been placed to provide some kind of empirical evidence of asbestos in fiberglass, we will wait to see if the OP can provide the data. If not, then appropriate action regarding this post will be taken." Read reply #4 again, no problem with that but a big problem is developing over the original post for some reason. Again, the OP said he was told something, it surprised him and did the forum know anything further?
[*] Reply #15 The OP provides the source of his information.
[*] Reply #18 takes issue with singling out the Catalina 27 (no problem with singling out the J24 though?) and with the idea that any Catalina 27's were built in Canada. BTW, the OP was correct that some were.
[*] Reply #19 The OP takes exception to some of the comments. I can't say I blame him.
[*] Reply #20 "No, you posted it as fact, not a query." No he didn't. He said he was told something that surprised him and asked the forum for help. Same reply "You also did not provide any source or backup to substantiate that fact." No, he came here looking for help with just that.
[*] Reply #22 is still challenging the idea of Canadian built Catalina 27's even though it had been established as fact. Further, "I have read many, many articles on boat and fiberglass repair.... safety precautions when sanding, drilling, cutting etc are always recommended with no reference to asbestos" yet it had already been established asbestos was used in the industry. Now who's alleging false information? Finally in the same reply, " Is that the type of "Informed Opinion" you're seeking?" Dripping with attitude, nice.
[*] Reply # 25 More attitude.
[*] Reply #27 from the OP "Frankly I think its time I moved on. This thread has gone from sensible to senseless to hostile." Can't say I disagree.
[*] Reply #37 "chambao, please come back." Forget it, he's gone.
[*] Reply #42 takes issue with the way the original post was phrased, parsing nearly every word, that the original post was offensive. Sorry, I don't see it that way at all.
[*] Reply #44 "Joe, well said. I hope the OP reads it and understands." I think he understands just fine.

Sorry guys but I think he was jumped on by a few members and his post was twisted to say something it didn't. I'm glad the asbestos discussion carried on through the other stuff, good information was presented.

I have to agree with Neil here. And Joe, I think you were particularly hard on the OP.

Are far as I can tell he legitimately turn to this forum with a question about a boat. We all here rumors all the time about various boats or building techniques. If people turn to this forum for answers we can't attack them because we don't like the question.

I don't know if its the late arrival of spring or what but there appears to be a little more fighting here recently. I think we all need to just get on our boats and take a collective time out for a few.

 

[Chris Patterson]

Did take a weird turn here, huh?

(Note to future posters: Don't say anything about a Catalina, you will be dealt with harshly)..

 

[Scott B]

Y'know guys, I'm reading this entirely different. The OP said he was told something about the Catalina 27, it surprised him and does anybody here have any such knowledge or opinion? I've read it more than a few times and that's what he said. He was in disbelief himself.

• Reply #2 "don't believe it" He said himself it surprised him. By reply #14 maybe he should believe it.
• Reply #5 "Please share your "informant" and provide substantial proof of this allegation. " yet no such demand was made to Reply #4 which alleged as fact "The only boat I know it exists in for a fact is in the vermiculite used to stiffen the keel sumps on early J24s " That was accepted without reference and singled out a particular boat. Double standard, no?
• Replies #9 & 10 "Unless there is a factual citation noting the content, I think this post should be dumped into an appropriate container. " and "Since the challenge has been placed to provide some kind of empirical evidence of asbestos in fiberglass, we will wait to see if the OP can provide the data. If not, then appropriate action regarding this post will be taken." Read reply #4 again, no problem with that but a big problem is developing over the original post for some reason. Again, the OP said he was told something, it surprised him and did the forum know anything further?
• Reply #15 The OP provides the source of his information.
• Reply #18 takes issue with singling out the Catalina 27 (no problem with singling out the J24 though?) and with the idea that any Catalina 27's were built in Canada. BTW, the OP was correct that some were.
• Reply #19 The OP takes exception to some of the comments. I can't say I blame him.
• Reply #20 "No, you posted it as fact, not a query." No he didn't. He said he was told something that surprised him and asked the forum for help. Same reply "You also did not provide any source or backup to substantiate that fact." No, he came here looking for help with just that.
• Reply #22 is still challenging the idea of Canadian built Catalina 27's even though it had been established as fact. Further, "I have read many, many articles on boat and fiberglass repair.... safety precautions when sanding, drilling, cutting etc are always recommended with no reference to asbestos" yet it had already been established asbestos was used in the industry. Now who's alleging false information? Finally in the same reply, " Is that the type of "Informed Opinion" you're seeking?" Dripping with attitude, nice.
• Reply # 25 More attitude.
• Reply #27 from the OP "Frankly I think its time I moved on. This thread has gone from sensible to senseless to hostile." Can't say I disagree.
• Reply #37 "chambao, please come back." Forget it, he's gone.
• Reply #42 takes issue with the way the original post was phrased, parsing nearly every word, that the original post was offensive. Sorry, I don't see it that way at all.
• Reply #44 "Joe, well said. I hope the OP reads it and understands." I think he understands just fine.

Sorry guys but I think he was jumped on by a few members and his post was twisted to say something it didn't. I'm glad the asbestos discussion carried on through the other stuff, good information was presented.

The OP came out with a statement of fact stating " I was informed" and "the news surprised me". He was asked to substantiate those facts same as anyone coming out with such a bold allegation about any brand of boat or manufacturer of accessories. He was not questioning the fact, it was presented as being the truth.

 

[Scott B]

Did take a weird turn here, huh?

(Note to future posters: Don't say anything about a Catalina, you will be dealt with harshly)..

Brand bashing is not allowed against any manufacturer, Catalina, Hunter, Bene etc. There is lots of discussions in these forums on faults on all boats and how to fix them, based on actual experience of the owners.

 

[Maine Sail]

Catalina -27's Asbestos Construction

If a simple question mark had been placed after the title it may have changed the whole tone from a factual type of statement to a question, like this.....

Catalina -27's Asbestos Construction?


Into the body of the original post is were I suspect the other mods saw the flag go up?

I was informed today that Catalina 27's built from 1975 onwards contain embedded asbestos in the fiberglass resin and during maintenance such as drilling, asbestos fibers can be inhaled unless appropriate safety equipment is worn.

As written this certainly comes off as a factually worded statement. Saying "A guy on the dock told me" or even "I heard" instead of "I was informed" changes a lot in the overall delivery tone. The second part goes on to include "Catalina 27's built from 1975 onwards contain embedded asbestos in the fiberglass resin ". This statement too comes off as a statement of fact.

It is surprising news to me that asbestos is in the fiberglass and now I wonder whether over the years asbestos might have been released as a natural part of aging in my boat and the cabin might contain asbestos fibers in the air.

This suggests.... "asbestos is in the fiberglass"

Any thoughts or knowledge on this issue?

Not until the very end is there a "question".. Sadly many read the first few lines of a post and move on. If I was searching for a Catalina 27 and Google came up with "Catalina 27's built from 1975 onwards contain embedded asbestos in the fiberglass resin." , and we all know how google searches tend to populate like that, I might just ditch that as an option on my list and move on.


Guys as moderators red flags go up when we see factually worded posts asserting things against a manufacture especially when no link, documentation or source has been provided. Also this post hit on health issues..

Merely changing a few words would have made the entire original post completely benign.

As a moderator, like Brian, Scott & Phil, I can assure you all there is a big difference between:


"I was informed today that Catalina 27's built from 1975 onwards contain embedded asbestos in the fiberglass resin and during maintenance such as drilling, asbestos fibers can be inhaled unless appropriate safety equipment is worn."

"I heard today that some Catalina's may have used asbestos mixed with the resins in the 70's and possibly further. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this or not?"


As we can see it is not what you ask but how you ask it that sends up the red flags. We have many users here who try to leverage or bully a manufacturer into submission via the use of this site as their own personal fulcrum. It is not tolerated in the terms of use and we watch for this carefully.

Just be careful on how you write something and try to proof read it before hitting send. Merely changing a few words in the OP and this thread never would have even hit the radar. Still would have arrived at the same answers too..

Chambao PLEASE do not take my post as picking on you. That is NOT my intent at all. My intent is to simply show how, why and where your post likely sent up the moderation flags. As moderators we have to read things "as written" and take them at face value and we have to evaluate posts on a "as written" basis...

We hope you stick around as your question, in the end, was a very good one! I apologize for you winding up on the radar but I hope you appreciate the job we have to do here to keep the peace.

 

[dscribner]

Fiberglass is on the suspected carcinogens list. So was asbestos years ago. It's unlikely that asbestos was used in boats. To inflexible as a fiber. It is, after all, a rock. Don't worry about it. Use a shopvac and a HEPA filter if you ever drill it or cut it. In the 70s & 80s, I worked with asbestos shingles. We'd drill, cut, snap and use them to hold our sandwiches on break. I don't know of anybody with mesothelioma. Worry more about the cigarette, or the drunken boater, or the texting teen.

This is an unsolicited editorial and does not necessarily reflect the views or Sailboatowners.com or their affiliates worldwide.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

He was asked to substantiate those facts same as anyone coming out with such a bold allegation about any brand of boat or manufacturer of accessories. He was not questioning the fact, it was presented as being the truth.

Moderators Scott and RC, how is what you interpret the OP said any different than Tommay's statement in reply #4?

The only boat I know it (asbestos) exists in for a fact is in the vermiculite used to stiffen the keel sumps on early J24s

yet that was accepted without challenge or moderation of any kind. It was stated as fact without any substantiation, no different than the interpretation of chambao's original post. Tommays was not asked to cite his source, not subjected to certain members' attitude so what gives? Why one and not the other?

Tommays, I have no issue with your post whatsoever. It was however, a great example in contradiction to the explanatory statements offered.

One other question:

Brand bashing is not allowed against any manufacturer, Catalina, Hunter, Bene etc.

Scott, I realize this was in response to Chis Patterson's comment but are you suggesting chambao was bashing the Catalina brand? I can understand it might be if it was determined asbestos was not present in Catalina's but I don't think that has been determined at all. In fact, with its common use in the boatbuilding industry (which has been clearly established) it's likely the info that surprised chambao may have been accurate.

It's unlikely that asbestos was used in boats . . . . .I don't know of anybody with mesothelioma.

It has been clearly established in this thread that asbestos was used and I know of mesothelioma victims - or more accurately, I knew them (past tense).

 

[Maine Sail]

Moderators Scott and RC, how is what you interpret the OP said any different than Tommay's statement in reply #4? yet that was accepted without challenge or moderation of any kind. It was stated as fact without any substantiation, no different than the interpretation of chambao's original post. Tommays was not asked to cite his source, not subjected to certain members' attitude so what gives? Why one and not the other?

Tommays, I have no issue with your post whatsoever. It was however, a great example in contradiction to the explanatory statements offered.

It's the same thing and ideally should have been "qualified" or a link supplied to the article on Vermiculite in J-24's..

The only difference for me is that J Boats has fully admitted to using Vermiculite in early boats. See HERE. It also is no secret that the mine in Montana, that was the source for about 70% of all Vermiculite sold from the early 1900's to 1990 (source EPA) was also contaminated with asbestos. Some sources claim the Montana mine was the source of 80% of all Vermiculite sold..? This was not the only mine to have had Asbestos contamination. It's pretty hard to admit you used Vermiculite (J-Boats) but then to absolve yourself of any potential Asbestos contained in the Vermiculite.

IIRC it was not until the late 80's or 1990(ish) that they began regulating the content of Asbestos in Vermiculite and J Boats was using this in the late 70's... It is well known, and supported by the FDA, to "assume" that "Vermiculite" also has Asbestos in it. I had to research this for a boat I knew to contain Vermiculate that had gotten soggy, an older J-Boat.... I chose to treat it as the potential for containing Asbestos and also chose not to do the job.

Is this a huge health concern if sanding or grinding Vermiculite? Could be and I would personally treat it as such... Of course ANY sanding on boats requires proper respiratory equipment. Heck I see DIY's grinding lead keels every spring with ZERO protection.. Scary stuff.... You really don't want to breathe anything you grind on a fiberglass boat....

Heck my forearms are still itchy from laying in some fiberglass hole saw dust while installing an Espar last week. I did wear a mask when drilling but did not get 100% dust with the vacuum before crawling into the lazarette like a contortionist.....

 

[Old Skool Neil]

It's the same thing and ideally should have been "qualified" or a link supplied to the article on Vermiculite in J-24's..

Thank you for that.

I wasn't asking for substantiation of Tommay's post but rather pointing out the very different treatment he received from members AND moderators compared to chambao for essentially the same transgression. With my industry knowledge I was perfectly fine with Tommay mentioning asbestos in J24's without further substantiation as apparently you were too. I felt the same with chambao's opening post and I confess it surprised me you didn't.

It suggests there may be more to Chris Patterson's post (#47) than just a clever quip (which is how I think he intended it). It seemed to hit a nerve.

[Aside] I had a rash on my wrists (long sleeve shirts with cuffs taped), waist and ankles for my first 6 months in the industry before my body became accustomed to fiberglass. Scalding hot showers worked well for me. The heat opened the pores to aid in flushing out the fibers.

 

[Ross]

Asbestos was used for many years as a filler in drywall compound and it was wonderful for making smooth slick finishes. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it was also used in fairing compounds. Naturally occuring asbestos can be found in almost every stone quarry in the world. There are about 25 variation of the mineral and like glass they are silicon compounds.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks to Maine Sail

for qualifying the issues surrounding this topic.

Just to add, each and every sub-group of this board has a Forum Guidelines, which has what I consider to be the very, very best "How to ask a question" description I have ever seen, anywhere - internet, school, work, home - you name it.

Wording DOES count.

Spelling? Don't get me started...

 

[Old Skool Neil]

I'm saying in this case the forum guidelines were arbitrarily and selectively applied. I know my opinion is in the minority and I'm fine with that. I think chambao was treated shabbily by some and was likely driven off.

The defense is how he asked the question or a missing question mark in the title?

 

[Ross]

There are many here for whom American English in not a first language and there are many who have difficulty writing a coherent sentence. There are also many with very little sailing experience we should all endeavor to accommodate these variations in our members. Reading comprehension should be considered before we make a reply.

 

[Maine Sail]

I'm saying in this case the forum guidelines were arbitrarily and selectively applied.

When moderating we often take the primary post (the OP that started the thread) with more "weight" than we may with repiles. This I am sure is the same on many forums.

I know my opinion is in the minority and I'm fine with that. I think chambao was treated shabbily by some and was likely driven off.

I certainly hope he was not driven off...

The defense is how he asked the question or a missing question mark in the title?

Not a "defense" at all just a mere explanation of how the mods might have read the post. I was not involved until I read the thread this am... As it stands it has remained unedited and the thread is still open. The mods were not the only ones in the thread to take note of this post and the wording of it.

Remember we can't read every word of every thread. We moderate when we see issues but everyone's definition of "rude" is different. Name calling and direct personal attacks are more clear but I've not seen either of those in this thread. I have seen some sarcasm bordering on the possibility of "rude" but none that I've seen that were worthy of outright deleting. Perhaps the other guys had already "cleaned up".. Some here walk a very fine line and consistently post right on the edge of the guidelines.. It is a fact of life on forums and we deal with it as best we can. You guys can always help by using the report post icon

..

We are aware of some repeat offenders and try to watch them more closely than others. Again, if you feel someone is a trouble maker PLEASE use the report post icon. If we see a trend we investigate and deal with it. If we don't see post reported we simply have to mod on what it is we do get to read.

As I mentioned we simply can not read each and every post. You guys as members have the full ability to aid us in making this place enjoyable.

 

[Jackdaw]

Brand bashing is not allowed against any manufacturer, Catalina, Hunter, Bene etc. There is lots of discussions in these forums on faults on all boats and how to fix them, based on actual experience of the owners.

Was this post edited???

I remember reading a part about the how important is was to SBO to maintain a 'stellar' reputation with the builders. It so, why was it removed? And honesty, why do you care? And in the bigger context, is that more important than this type of information being discussed? This groups tearing into the OP and other and using the justification of 'wording' and 'phraseology' is terrible. I owned two Catalina's of this vintage and was up to my elbows in glass. I wanted to know what was going on. Seemed too many here were worried about poor Catalina, or what Catalina Corp might think. That's a shame.