Catalina 27 - Asbestos Construction

Lost Parent · Apr 4, 2013

Where did you hear this

Joe · Apr 5, 2013

Lost Parent said:
Where did you hear this

I love it when people say "I heard that........" or "Someone told me that...."

Unless you've got some kind of reference... like a link or printed article... don't believe it. Sounds like the Nancy Grace school of journalism.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Apr 5, 2013

It's possible, but not very likely.

Asbestos would have only been used until 1978 or 1979 at the latest. Even in the mid 1970s most manufactures had started to use less asbestos because they knew it was about to be banned. But asbestos was added to many things because it had great properties. It was put in everything and you are probably around asbestos every day and you don't realize it. Home Depot and other building material stores still have some asbestos products on the shelf.

The precautions you should already be taking for fiberglass are pretty close to what you would need to do for asbestos. Wear a respirator, I keep a vacuum on next to the spot I am working to collect as much dust as possible and you can wet the surface down with a mist of water to control dust better.

The only place I have seen possible asbestos on a boat was some exhaust riser insulation. Other than that, if asbestos is present it will be bound in some kind of a matrix, like epoxy for hulls, and is not very likely to be released from normal use of the boat.

If you really want to be worried about the chemicals on your boat, think about the bottom paint and other maintenance products you use.

tommays · Apr 5, 2013

The only boat I know it exists in for a fact is in the vermiculite used to stiffen the keel sumps on early J24s

The only other ways I could see vermiculite being used would be in insulation ?

Scott B · Apr 5, 2013

chambao said:
I was informed today that Catalina 27's built from 1975 onwards contain embedded asbestos
in the fiberglass resin and during maintenance such as drilling, asbestos fibers can be inhaled unless appropriate safety equipment is worn. It is surprising news to me that asbestos is in the fiberglass and now I wonder whether over the years asbestos might have been released as a natural part of aging in my boat and the cabin might contain asbestos fibers in the air. Any thoughts or knowledge on this issue?

Please share where your information came from or provide the members substantiated proof of this allegation.

anchorclanker · Apr 5, 2013

I hope I dont sound dumb or ignorant, but I believe a lot of the trouble with asbestos was factory workers who handled it for years while refusing to wear respirators. Back in the late 60's, all the auto parts stores and brake shops would re-arc brake shoes and everyone knew you didnt want to breath the dust and should use a respirator. Did anyone wear one? No. When my Father worked for the Navy back in the 40's, they told you not to breath the dust and handed out respirators. No one wore them. They handed out safety glasses. No one wore them. They told you not to breath the vapors over cleaning fluid tanks filled with Triclorethylene. Dad said guys would come in Monday with hang overs and breath the stuff to "clear their head". After one or two died they got a little more aggressive about protecting the idiots from themselves.

Now you see some old school on the news and guys dressed is hazmat suits after evacuating the school, they treat the stuff like its radioactive Plutonium. I guess what im saying is, I wouldn't worry about it. As said by JK, above, just use the same precautions you should use working with fiberglass, and you'll be fine. Thats providing the stuff is even in that boat.

Chris Patterson · Apr 5, 2013

If you're grinding or drilling fiberglass, a respirator is in order anyway. Do I? No.
My ol' ladies cooking is more hazardous than breathing "fiberglass/asbestos emanation contamination"..

Merlin Clark · Apr 5, 2013

If it's not true they can't put it on the internet!
Did I ever tell you I'm a French model?

RobertLangdirect · Apr 5, 2013

Unless there is a factual citation noting the content, I think this post should be dumped into an appropriate container.

Brian D · Apr 5, 2013

Since the challenge has been placed to provide some kind of empirical evidence of asbestos in fiberglass, we will wait to see if the OP can provide the data.

Ralph Johnstone · Apr 5, 2013

Rather than Asbestos in Your FG Hull ................

................................. I'd be far more worried about:

The live Asp that was found in the sleeve of a very expensive leopard skin coat which was on sale at Madame Runge's.

Or the enormous alligators that are living in the sewers of New York, having been flushed down the sewers as small, unwanted pets many years ago.

Or the diabolical plot where poisonous spiders are being inserted into Oreo cookies.

I don't make this stuff up .................. it's all there on the internet for everyone to see

.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Apr 5, 2013

Brian D said:
Since the challenge has been placed to provide some kind of empirical evidence of asbestos in fiberglass, we will wait to see if the OP can provide the data.

I think it is worth leaving. Asbestos was definitely used in boats. There have been boat plans/drawings from like Glastron that have showed the designer called for asbestos putty for transom plates, foam blocks in the upper hull and other joints. I just don't know of it ever being used as a filler in fiberglass or on Catalinas. I bet there may be some Canadian boats that used it way past the 1980. Asbestos is still mined in Canada regularly.

The biggest thing to remember with asbestos, and PCBs too for that matter, is it was thought of as a "wonder mineral". It improved everything it was put into, or so it was thought at the time. Anytime you wanted to make something stronger, more chemically resistant, more heat resistant, or more abrasive resistant, asbestos was the "go to" material.

I work doing environmental cleanup associated with construction. I have seen asbestos in just about everything you can imagine: kids pajamas; cigarette filters; wall paper; drinking water filters; Space Shuttle Solid Rocket Boosters; etc. To be honest, in many applications you can't get a better or even similar performing material as you get from one that is asbestos-containing.

If you own a pre-1980 American boat or a pre-1985-1990 Canadian boat, asbestos could be present. But as I said earlier, as long as it is intact and you take some minor proper precautions it doesn't pose a significant risk to boat occupants or those doing work.

But they are finding many other items that can have similar affects, such as fiberglass and silica. They were definitely used in boat making. So the bottom line is use a good respirator, not just a dust mask, when you grind, drill or cut and clean up after your work with a vacuum with a HEPA filter and wet washing.

tommays · Apr 5, 2013

As much as you would love to thinks are safe I will be happy to take a picture of PPG concept color high quality(two part paint)made in 1995 that still used LEAD

I was rather horrified when I took one of the cans out my long tem storage to touch up a nick

Old Skool Neil · Apr 5, 2013

Here's your source - - ME!

I can report first hand that asbestos was used in the sailboat industry up to at least 1973 and likely beyond. It was used in primarily two areas: Woven asbestos wrap for hot exhaust sections and as a thickening agent for resin.

Thickened resin was used for a number of purposes and in a variety of viscosities. Depending on the structural requirements different fill materials were used. For lightweight cosmetic fillers, resin was thickened with a phenolic product called microballoons. For structural purposes, asbestos was used. At Capital Yachts we called it mish-mash. It had tremendous strength and adhesion properties.

The viscosity could be controlled by the amount of asbestos added, from runny thin and pourable to the consistency of dough and everything in between. On the Newport 30 the fiberglass keel stump was filled with thin mish-mash encapsulating the keel bolts before woven roving was laminated over the area to form a flat bilge. The thicker mish-mash was used to fill in around the shaft logs before bonding, under the strut foot to form an aligned bolting base, under the engine pan and mast compression post as the interior liner was lowered into the hull to eliminate voids in those areas.

The ground asbestos fibers were stored in open sacks on the shop floor, we would scoop it out with our hands and stir it into resin in open discarded one gallon tomato sauce cans from the local pizzaria.

I've lost a number of friends from those days to mesothelioma, most of them in the 1990's. It takes about 20 years from exposure for the symptoms to emerge but once symptomatic it goes fast, like less than a year. For me, I used to get chest X-rays annually up to about the 30 year mark since my last exposure, all clear.

Stu Jackson · Apr 5, 2013

"Friable" is the word for the dangerous stuff, whether or not it may be present. It means loose in the air. If used, it's already embedded and unless you're drilling or sanding, it shouldn't get loose.

Joe · Apr 5, 2013

chambao said:
The fleet director of a Canadian sailing cooperative that owns 4 catalina 27's.
He got it from a man who built Catalina 27's in British Columbia in the 70's under licence from the main builder in California.

Your mistake is in singling out the Catalina 27........ THAT is irresponsible...

You lumped the Canadien Catalina 27's into the same pool as all others. I was unaware that there was any licensing of that nature anyhow.... if there was, I would like to know, before purchase, where it was built.

I have never seen a C 27 advertised as a "canadian built" model.... have you?

If.... as has been indicated by some of the other posters... it was an industry practice....then you should have said ALL or MANY fiberglass sailboats of the area used asbestos..... but you didn't. In any event it's poor practice to say "I know a guy who knew a guy who said........"

If you're afraid to go on a Catalina 27...... you should be afraid to go on ANY boat before asbestos was banned in construction.... and any that were built in countries that may have different construction standards.