Cal 3-34, survey is better than expected....

[Morgan donor]

Centerline, Buying a boat is crazy business isn't it? If you walk away you get to pay another surveyor...again. Guys are telling you to get the engine surveyed. More money!
Get a mechanic to do a compression test on it at least, maybe an oil analysis.

The surveyor or broker you're working with can run the last two years of Cal 34 selling prices. Real world prices paid. That will tell you more than all the free advice here.

One thing in your story that stood out: PVC in the exhaust. To me, this speaks of a dangerous misunderstanding of how the world works. If this is indicative of the rest of the work the PO did I'd consider walking (maybe running) away.

Now let me cheer you up. I drove 10 hours to look at a C&C landfall, meet the surveyor etc. The was an older boat broker showing an unrelated buyer a boat. We struck up a conversation. He said he never gets a boat surveyed anymore. "If he likes it he buys it". "They all have water in them somewhere" and "everything can be repaired". That experience has stuck in my mind. I've had SO much money tied up in surveys...its crazy. But I get his point. (I walked on the C&C after finding high water marks in the hull + survey results, bought a M383). Mainesail's "how to use a moisture meter" is spot on. Complete your due diligence prior to getting a survey. Ya kiss a lot of frogs until the princess finally shows up. BTW, never fall in love with a boat, there's plenty out there.

 

[Sock Puppet]

WALK AWAY. You haven't bought the boat, and you're already unhappy<.>

Huh? Where are you getting this from?

 

[centerline]

For 16K this boat sounds pretty typical for her age. Those survey items are pretty standard on boats of this age especially boats that were built before safety standards existed.

GFCI's, wing nuts, over current protection, LPG etc. etc. will all need to be brought up to current standards for most insurance companies out there. I would prioritize electrical, LPG and any fuel line, tank, vent issues first as these are hot ticket items for insurance companies to nit pick..

If you don't want to carry any insurance then none of it needs to be addressed, but I would not advise going that route..

In my experience these will be the hot ticket items for insurance:

replace non-stainless hose clamps
install 2 clamps each connection below the waterline
install GFCI in 120V system
replace non compliant hoses on seacocks
repair nav lights
repair non-compliant LPG system
replace hot water heater safety pop off
wrong style of main breaker used
reverse polarity at 120v outlet in galley
wing nuts used on batteries
plastic fuel filter bowls (if in an engine space)
fuel filler deck fitting not marked "diesel"
corroded and inadequate number of exhaust hose clamps

These are all pretty minimal items for a boat of that vintage with the LPG system being the largest chore.... Double clamping below water is not an ABYC "requirement", but should be, Most surveyors will note it and most insurance companies will demand it once it is noted. I would strongly suggest using non-perforated hose clamps such as AWAB's...



A little more on "standards"...

FACT: You as a private boater do NOT need to comply with the ABYC

CAUSE FOR CONSIDERATION: Your surveyor surveys to ABYC standards and your insurance company underwrites your boat based on the surveyors report!

These are just a bit of the "insurance/survey" items I have had to deal with over the last few years:

*Bond a keel stepped mast to external ballast (after a strike claim)
*Bond numerous boats for AC Grounding to DC Grounding
*Add over current protection where it did not exist (house banks for example)
*2 Boats for the AC inlet / breaker 10' rule
*1 Boat for an improper AC main breaker (not double pole)
*Multiple boats for GFCI outlets
*Multiple boats for lack of DC over-current protection
*Multiple boats for LPG system issues
*1 Boat for AC/DC isolation (cover for AC) behind AC/DC panel
*Multiple boats for fuel system issues (too many to list)
*1 Boat for a reverse polarity indicator
*Approx three boats for non compliant battery chargers
*2 Boats for ignition protection issues on gas boats.
*1 Boat for lack of a bilge blower
*Improper bonding of chargers and inverter/chargers
*1 Boat for a bilge pump alarm
*Multiple boats for deteriorated below waterline hoses
*Remove a non compliant on-demand water heater (Excel)
*Multiple battery system compliance issues including venting, acid containment, over current protection etc..
*Multiple unsafe termination issues (solder, wire nuts, improper lug stacking etc.)
*Steering system failures (meat hooks etc.)

There are probably more that I am just forgetting... Insurance companies and surveyors today are playing a CYA game. In todays day and age it does pay to use the available safety standards as a solid guideline for boat upgrades. The survey industry uses them so the closer your boat is to those guidelines (ABYC) the better chance you will have a skating through clean on an insurance survey. It is getting tougher and tougher to find a lick & stick surveyor these days due to the litigious nature of our society. I am sure they are out there but NAMS and SAMS are getting very structured and precise in what they want to see...

I had one owner who pulled the "I'm grandfathered because my boat was built before the standards existed." card on the insurance company and they dropped him at renewal. :cussing: Once dropped he had an extremely trough time finding insurance for his forty year old boat. In the end it cost him $700.00+ more per year than the $120.00 in safety requirements the insurance company wanted to see. He's now probably spend 4000.00 more in added insurance premiums over the $120.00 in safety improvements the insurance company wanted D'oh!!!!

NOTE: "Lick & stick" is a term for those of us in states that require State inspection stickers on cars. Anyone who's ever owned an old car knows what a "lick & stick" garage is..... A few extra dollars and the problems just go away and he licks the sticker and slaps it on... (wink)

I want the boat as close to ABYC standards as possible... maybe not by next month, but within a few months... if I ever do decide to sell the boat for some reason, I dont want someone elses survey to have a laundry list like this one reads... I think it DOES play a big part in value and sale-ability (as opposed to sailability) of the boat...

on this boat, there are collectively, dual bank charger, solar charger, electronic system monitors with digital read outs, and a few units wiithout readouts...also navionics and many units with redundent backup systems... I know what the common units do, but I have no idea what they all are or how they all work.... once I get the boat in my possession, I plan to take photos of these unknown devices and post them for identification.... then i'll know more of how the electrical is set up, so that I can address many of the issues you mention concerning the electrical systems.....

all the components seems to have been installed within this century, so kinda modern equipment, as compared to age of the boat itself...

hopefully there will be people here that knows what all the stuff is and can explain to me how it is supposed to operate and if I even need it.....

 

[fa102]

we got the survey results back, and although the boat is not quite as bad as I expected, the value is still down due to all the little stuff that is wrong with it... although the negotiated price and the value as surveyed is almost the same, im still going back and forth on the decision to purchase or pass...

there are soooo many little thing that it must have been done by someone who had no idea what an ABYC standard is, or that there even was such a thing.....

the decks sounded a slightly higher than expected moisture content with the meter.... there is no saturation at all, and the decks measured about the same thru out... due to the higher than expected reading, extra time was put in to hammer sounding, and could find no abnormalities.... suggested core sampling, then drying if neccessary. no rot was found.

there seems to be nothing expensive to repair, individually, but collectivly it may add up to a grand.... if I do the work myself....
the blister repairs and bottom paint, and the dodger and bimini will be quite a bit more....

I have included here what is in the survey...

replace non-stainless hose clamps, install 2 clamps each connection below the waterline, install GFCI in 120V system, clean up wiring and remove deleted/dead wires, replace non compliant hoses on seacocks, repair nav lights, remove extension cords that run to the microwave and tv, install gimbal lock on LPG range, repair non-compliant LPG system, replace hot water heater safety pop off, expired safety flares, mount fire extinguisher, install CO detector, no horn on board, auto bilge pump switch does not work (manual switch does), 120v appliances/outlets all wired on same circuit- split to individual circuit breakers (available but not used), wrong style of main breaker used, reverse polarity at 120v outlet in galley, new 12Vcircuit panels installed, but some switches are mislabled or not marked as spares-2 indicator lights out, corrosion at battery terminal and at starter terminal, wing nuts used on batteries, all wiring is loose, messy and unsecured, clamps used on push-loc hose fittings, plastic fuel filter bowls, fuel filler deck fitting not marked "diesel", fuel level sending unit is moist with fuel (exterior), ABS pipe found in wet exhaust system, corroded and inadaquate number of exhaust hose clamps, dormant zincs, 5-10 hull blisters approaching 1", needs bottom paint.

and in addition to all this immediate attention stuff, there are a few maintenance items that will need to have some attention in due course...
rigging inspection, tie off anchor rode, sea strainer not secured, install cotter pins in place of ring-dings, rub rail is deteriorated, replace twine and plumbers tape that is holding hoses and wiring with marine grade fasteners and chafe protection, kinked freshwater vent hose, crazing in acrylic windows, dodger windows yellowed, loose drive belts on engine, some corrosion noted on engine components, oily film on motor(but not wet), coolant level low, bonding strap contacting trans shift lever.

There are many extras that go with the boat, in addition to the necessary and common equipment such as spinnaker and whisker poles, furler, sails, chute, all the electronics, wind meters, upgraded charging system and inverter, life vests & horseshoe, anchors (3) & chain/rode, ladder, and items that are attached, the boat has also been refit with a new mast and boom (lefiell), with heavier rigging....

and these unattached items
45 watt solar panel, new cabin led light fixtures, new deck fill, new hawse pipe, new guest multi battery disconnect switch, new 8" deck plates, 2 new opening portlights, new raw water pump, new LPG solenoid, 2 gallons west systems epoxy, 3 new GFCI switches, extra sails, 2 genoas, 1 main, 2 WM auto inflate offshore PFD's/harness with tethers and jacklines, 2 50ft marine extension cords with adaptors, evenrude 4hp outboard, life sling, emergency tiller, teak cockpit table, magma propane grill, bulkhead mounted oil lamp, LPG locker, and extra 19gallon fuel tank....

Certerline,

Does not sound like a good deal, considering the sketchy survey notes provided.

Elevated moisture readings (in any cored structure) is a bad situation; will result in structural deterioration. .
Did the survey report denote certain items as critical/essential/must do now repairs?
Blisters (5-10 hull blisters approaching 1") are a significant problem. Were the blisters examined (popped open to see if they were wet/seeping fluid from osmotic process degrading the frp. laminate or "dry" ie. laminate voids; either situation is a problem. (Think about what could be hiding under layers of anti-fouling paint. Blisters do not go away on their own; they increase in size & / or number.)

Unattached items/upgrades can denote neglect / lack of interest / other problems by the selling owner.

Take the deficiency list to a boat yard; get estimates for doing all of the work (especially blister repair / remediation). (Then add a minimum of 25% for the inevitable surprises.)

The boats purchase price should be significantly below the book value for that year & model in good condition (needing no repair / significant maintenance and certainly with out blisters on the hull or wet deck core).

Frank A (marine surveyor Long Island NY)

 

[centerline]

WALK AWAY. You haven't bought the boat, and you're already unhappy<.>

too many people with more experience and better reputations for knowing value and boats in general, have already greatly influenced my decision to purchase....

you obviously havent been following the threads, so why would you make that statement?..... but really, it doesnt matter

 

[gcsitts]

Interesting thread. Reading it seems to tell more about the posters than the subject.
The real, rational advice should be "don't ever buy any boat, they are an expensive PITA." We buy boats for impractical, emotional, non-rational reasons.
We all have known of owners who buy boats, fix them and sail the world. We've known owners who buy them and let them sit, just feeling good they own them.
I happen to like daysailing and some longer overnight costal trips. I also like puttering on maintenance and repairs. I paid about your same amount for my neglected 87 Catalina 34 because it gave me that balance... we are on the boat about a week a month and our general rule is that we sail half the days we are there. That works for us, the other half we get to improve the boat and do off-board activities.
You are not going to get a real, dollar value, answer here, you are only going to learn more about our fellow sailors, a good thing in itself. You have been working with this boat awhile now, does she grab your heart, or not?

 

[centerline]

Certerline,

Does not sound like a good deal, considering the sketchy survey notes provided.

Elevated moisture readings (in any cored structure) is a bad situation; will result in structural deterioration. .
Did the survey report denote certain items as critical/essential/must do now repairs?
Blisters (5-10 hull blisters approaching 1") are a significant problem. Were the blisters examined (popped open to see if they were wet/seeping fluid from osmotic process degrading the frp. laminate or "dry" ie. laminate voids; either situation is a problem. (Think about what could be hiding under layers of anti-fouling paint. Blisters do not go away on their own; they increase in size & / or number.)

Unattached items/upgrades can denote neglect / lack of interest / other problems by the selling owner.

Take the deficiency list to a boat yard; get estimates for doing all of the work (especially blister repair / remediation). (Then add a minimum of 25% for the inevitable surprises.)

The boats purchase price should be significantly below the book value for that year & model in good condition (needing no repair / significant maintenance and certainly with out blisters on the hull or wet deck core).

Frank A (marine surveyor Long Island NY)

I read your post, that is in reply to what I wrote....

and i got some of the same kind of information from a few others that i feel dont know as much about boats as I do or some others on this site...

but you are speaking from the standpoint as marine surveyor, so what I would like you to answer for me, so that I may qualify your professional opinion, is this,....
what should I be expecting from a 37year old boat that looks good from the dock(although not shiny), and in the cabin it looks great and is shiny, and has already had many upgrades done, inside and out... and is at this price point?....

 

[tailwind]

Engine manual access

Westerbeke and Universal are names that are somewhat interchangeable when searching for engine information. They are most often marinized Kubota tractor engines. There are some manuals posted online. Here is one link I found for a Universal m430 that may be your engine:

http://engines1.novosolutions.net/default.asp?id=271

It covers several engines. You should also be able to find operators manuals and parts manuals on line. Filters and the like can be purchased from your NAPA or other auto or tractor parts dealer. Also look to them for hard engine parts as well.

Sounds like you have a boat worth working on... Enjoy!

 

[tailwind]

Bill Browning Yacht Sales has a lot of old sailboat brochures posted on line including your Cal 34.

http://www.floridaboats.net/Default.htm

 

[Leroy McMillan]

Keep looking…. I paid $4396.52 for my 82 Hunter 30. Working Yanmar , new main , RF with older genoa. I had to replace all pumps and light fixtures but I am still waaay ahead.

 

[SailorJeffToo]

Doesn't anybody teach their kids how to barter anymore?

we got the survey results back, and although the boat is not quite as bad as I expected, the value is still down due to all the little stuff that is wrong with it... although the negotiated price and the value as surveyed is almost the same, im still going back and forth on the decision to purchase or pass...

It's a buyers market right now. If this is the boat you want, the go ahead & make an offer on it, but not at the surveyed value. Knock at least 25% for talking room. If the boat was in great shape, you should still offer less than the surveyed value. That's what buyer's market means.

If it's not the boat you want, why are you are still wasting time on it? there are hundreds of great boats out there desperately needing someone to take them home and love them. Go find the one that calls to you.

 

[THECUSCUS]

CL, here is a link to the westerbeke brochure from that era ( I have a 77 Pearson 35 with this engine). I have hard copies of these that came with my boat, so they are the correct ones.

http://www.westerbeke.com/productBrochures/w30.pdf

http://www.westerbeke.com/OnlineManuals/13945_Rev_8.pdf

http://www.westerbeke.com/OnlineManuals/11874_Rev_5_W30_Tech_Manual.pdf

 

[rajhnsn]

Why was the mast and boom replaced?

 

[barnstormer]

It's a buyers market right now. If this is the boat you want, the go ahead & make an offer on it, but not at the surveyed value. Knock at least 25% for talking room. If the boat was in great shape, you should still offer less than the surveyed value. That's what buyer's market means.

If it's not the boat you want, why are you are still wasting time on it? there are hundreds of great boats out there desperately needing someone to take them home and love them. Go find the one that calls to you.

I said it before and will say it again, Walk Away! The P.O. doesn't seem to know anything about how a boat works or how to fix it. Believe me the P.O. of my 30' catalina knew nothing about proper maintenance and I have been redoing or fixing everything he touched for the last 2 years. The total work load on a used boat WILL eat into your sailing time, unless you would rather fix than sail. Let someone else pour thousands into an old boat and work labor and when it comes time to sell it YOU buy it with a big discount on the gear installed and the labor.

 

[shemandr]

Why was the mast and boom replaced?

Excellent question.

 

[Maine Sail]

This thread has become amusing.

I can guarantee that I can walk onto just about ANY 34' boat of posters in this thread and come away with a laundry list that exceeds or equals the boat in question. I do this nearly every day so have some level of confidence in this statement. It is a very, very, very rare boat that passes any inspection of mine without at least a one or two page list.

Please remember this is a 34' 16k boat that is 37 years old. It is not going to be a Hinckley or Morris not at that length and price.. These deficiencies are very minor for a boat of that age and are VERY, VERY typical.. I am sure the surveyor still missed a lot too.

Could a better 34' boat be found for the money? Perhaps, but when you start moving away from the locale the boat is in now we have transportation issues, travel time, vacation days that chew into SAILING vacation, flights or paid captains deliveries to contend with.

This makes the actual price of the boat somewhere around 10-12k. Can we find a 10k 34 footer in Morris or Hinckley condition...??? Pretty doubtful... ANY 16k 34 foot boat will need some work. Show me one that you think does not and I can still find a laundry list, easily.... Most of the items on that survey list are very inexpensive fixes and the boat has relatively dry decks.

A customer of mine recently purchased one of the most incredible condition Bristol 40's on the market. He paid absolute top dollar for it. The boat is like a true museum piece. Still it has had 30k put into it because this owner wants it his way despite it passing the survey with flying colors... Just because a boat is "like new" does not mean you won't spend money on it. One of our most costly boats to own was our brand new 2005 Catalina. We took delivery of in June of 2005 on a 2005 model year boat.. Even though this was the "loaded" boat show model we still spent thousands to get it to where we wanted it. The factory cut many corners, it is a production boat and that is to be expected, that I simply would not tolerate though many folks would.

For those concerned about plastic in the wet exhaust have you thought about all the Vetus water lift exhausts or the hundreds of thousands of boats with nylon thru-hulls for exhaust systems? Heck we don't even really know what this piece is or if the surveyor actually knows what the material is, or where in the wet part of the exhaust it was located?

Here is a 650k boat at the 2013 Annapolis show... Is that "plastic" in the wet exhaust system???

Even though our CS-36T was in immaculate condition, really a top 2% of condition boat, we have still done piles of work to her and she had, and still has, quite a laundry list.

I don't see anything on this Cal 34 that is out of the ordinary or a deal breaker for the price and age of this boat. I get to set foot on hundreds of boats per year and dig around the bilges and examine the systems etc.. You could pay a LOT more for a 34' boat and get even more deficiencies than are listed here, I see it all the time...


Considering the list of spares and parts that come with the boat, most of which an owner would want to have, the boat is really not 16k after you subtract all the extras. I see many boats stripped of EVERYTHING but the flares when sold. This is much more common than letting the boat go with everything as most owners are moving to another boat and bring everything or they think they can sell it.

This boat has thousands of dollars in spare parts & sail inventory. Heck a Westerbeke RW Pump alone is running over $600.00 clams....

45 watt solar panel, new cabin led light fixtures, new deck fill, new hawse pipe, new guest multi battery disconnect switch, new 8" deck plates, 2 new opening portlights, new raw water pump, new LPG solenoid, 2 gallons west systems epoxy, 3 new GFCI switches, extra sails, 2 genoas, 1 main, 2 WM auto inflate offshore PFD's/harness with tethers and jacklines, 2 50ft marine extension cords with adaptors, evenrude 4hp outboard, life sling, emergency tiller, teak cockpit table, magma propane grill, bulkhead mounted oil lamp, LPG locker, and extra 19gallon fuel tank....

If you want a 2% condition boat you are going to:

#1 Pay for it. This will not be a 16k 34' boat and can't be expected to be... In 40 + years I have never ever seen one in that price to length range even when accounting for a soft market..

#2 Spend considerable time looking and searching for it because many of them never even hit the market. If and when they do hit the market they sell within hours as there are very experienced buyers with checkbooks in hand waiting to pounce on a 2 percenter.

#3 Still spend lots of money on it despite it being a 2 percenter..

 

[Bad Obsession]

Mainesail always has a good way of putting technical stuff.

Surveys are important, but remember that they can also make you paranoid. There are lot of owners, like myself, that jump when something new catches our eyes. When you are boating on a budget, like myself, your mind tends to wander to places when you see things that concern you. Usually these are very minor things!

Figure out what you need to do to put the boat in the condition where you want it to be. You are the one sailing it. Don't worry about selling it because selling sucks and you will never get what you have in a boat out of it. Buy the boat, enjoy the boat, and use it as much as possible.

 

[Ron20324]

For $650K, I'd suspect that gray lift is actually gold, with a gray primer on it. Then, MS can do a paint job that will REALLY do it justice!

 

[centerline]

In addition to what Main Sail said, I would like to add, and very gently as I go...

for ANY buyer and seller, the survey is also a tool of negotiation.

and some "unspoken" things to keep in mind (and some may disagree), but an opinion is just that, no matter if it comes from a surveyor or a bystander... the actual value of a boat is determined by many things, but its an "OPINION" of the surveyor has a LOT to do with what it actually SELLS for, no matter what his credentials are...

the current owner did NOT have a survey or evaluation done on the boat.... when I found this out, I called the roughest surveyor I could find to work for ME...

we talked a few times over the next couple of days before the survey was done and thru that I knew he liked the way I treated people and the way I handled myself.... (not that im so special, but we got along great)... if i would have thought he didnt like me, I would have found someone else..

so when the survey day comes, that man was working for ME.... not the owner.
I was there during the inspection and he explained to me what we were looking at and the seriousness of it, and why... and the options for repair.

he knew I was interested in the boat, and we both knew his scribblings on that paper could either help me or hurt me....

to explain, the original asking price was 22G... he could of written the value of the boat at 24G... I would have accepted this, and so would the owner... I would of lost any negotiation power I had, and thought I was getting a good deal at 22...... (in reality, I knew I wouldnt pay 22G for this boat)

or... he may have seen the boat in fair condition with some minor things wrong, but nothing serious, marked up all the things he could find to make a long list, no matter how small or minor, and in addition, came in with a very low evaluation.... (keep in mind, while roughly following the guidelines, it IS only an opinion) and both the seller and the buyer takes his word for it.... it can put the negotiation power in the buyers hands....

and the seller lose's because he has nothing to work from except the buyers survey....

I will agree that there are guidelines that are followed during a survey, but its the OPINION of a SURVEYOR is what people use the work with.. that opinion is written on many pieces of paper.

my point is, just because the paper says its worth 15,500 and I pay 16, means nothing to me, other than making the seller think he got a good deal...

the buyer AND the seller should both have a survey done if they want a fair evaluation of the boat..... and treat your surveyor like you want to be treated, 'cuz it may make a big difference...

I really do like all of the comments, tips and ideas, but it would be my opinion that on here, or in your life, before you make a comment, a decision, or a decision to comment, put things in perspective so that you can justify it, and you will always be remembered in a better light..

 

[BigEasy]

Cl,
Lord knows that you got a lot of diverse opinions regarding the Cal over the last week!
You have a thorough understanding of the condition and deficiencies of the boat. You know what it is going to take to get it in the condition that you want. You are satisfied with the final price. Most importantly, you like the boat. You will enjoy working on the it and certainly enjoy it thoroughly when you complete the upgrades and are sailing. The most important thing is that you are pleased with the outcome, regardless of what others think. If you're happy; I am happy for you! Enjoy your boat.