Cal 3-34, survey is better than expected....

[Rick D]

Your Commitment?

If you buy this boat, are you prepared to spend a year bringing it up to a reasonable standard? Not full time work of course and not that you can't use it, just understand you will spend a lot more time fixing than sailing. That's the first question you should seriously ask yourself.

As for the survey, the result would be typical of what I have seen in similar boats of that vintage. Certainly there are ones requiring less time or money, but they are in my experience the exception; for the price range in that size and vintage, the condition seems to me to be typical.

If you are not willing to commit to the projects, you should consider a smaller boat for the same money but newer and more up to date. However, if you are serious about this boat, you should understand this is also an opportunity to learn the boat well, understand what it will take to maintain her, and learn new skills which will save you money, time and frustration later. The key is to prioritize the list, take one at a time and stick with it until it is done, otherwise you could get overwhelmed. Much of what is on this list isn't immediately critical. This forum will provide good answers for your questions and provide guidance.

IMHO, if I were looking, I would consider this boat to have better assets than liabilities based upon the survey results. Others may not agree.

Good luck!

 

[Sumner]

How far will you be from the boat? Will you be able to get to it in less than an hour? If so and knowing you I would just pick away at those jobs. To finish them I'd budget a little more than I think you mentioned....maybe $1500 to $2000. Like you mentioned the bimini and dodger well add about $2000 more together if you buy the materials and do the sewing. I think that is about what we have in ours and we did all the work and had the sewing machine.

The propane will probably cost about $200 and needs to be done now if you are going to use it and that wouldn't count a bottle, just new lines, regulator, shut-off solenoid (we had to do this also).

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the sea-cocks/thru-hulls. Do they all work and seal and are they ball valves. We had to replace 8 of different sizes and that will easily cost you $1000 with you doing the work and it is a fairly big job but not the difficult (I pretty much followed MS's tutorial). I feel the boat is much safer now than when we got it.

I agree that you could easily spend $4000-$5000 traveling and looking at boats outside the region and not have the time to spend with them like you have here. Even if you don't buy this boat I wouldn't go outside the area for a boat in that price range. If you were spending $50K or more then you might just travel to see boats that are in very good condition. We spent about $500 and a couple days going to look at one boat that looked like the perfect boat on the Internet to find that it had been really neglected since the pictures had been taken.

If the blisters are in one area that will be much easier to address than if they were spread all over the boat and scattered.

Have you considered what you are going to do insurance wise. We have liability only and have our necks stuck out but I just couldn't see paying over $2000 a year for a boat that is as old as ours. 15 years and we would of paid for it twice almost. The insurance was high since we hadn't owned a large boat before. It is probably less now that we have owned her a couple years even though she hasn't been in the water.

How about mooring and or slip fees. You have that figured out? You probably also need to factor in having the bottom clean every month or two depending on what people have done in that area.

If you are close to the boat and can get the safety stuff done quickly and start sailing and do the rest over the next year or so I'd say it might be a good deal for you. At some point you have to forget about if you are going to make money (unlikely), break even (also unlikely) or realize that you are going to get so much enjoyment out of the boat that is worth the cost now, the work and all the expenses down the road. How do you put a value on the enjoyment part. We aren't here this long and the enjoyment part has to come before all the price points,

Sum

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[centerline]

How far will you be from the boat? Will you be able to get to it in less than an hour? If so and knowing you I would just pick away at those jobs. To finish them I'd budget a little more than I think you mentioned....maybe $1500 to $2000. Like you mentioned the bimini and dodger well add about $2000 more together if you buy the materials and do the sewing. I think that is about what we have in ours and we did all the work and had the sewing machine.

The propane will probably cost about $200 and needs to be done now if you are going to use it and that wouldn't count a bottle, just new lines, regulator, shut-off solenoid (we had to do this also).

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the sea-cocks/thru-hulls. Do they all work and seal and are they ball valves. We had to replace 8 of different sizes and that will easily cost you $1000 with you doing the work and it is a fairly big job but not the difficult (I pretty much followed MS's tutorial). I feel the boat is much safer now than when we got it.

I agree that you could easily spend $4000-$5000 traveling and looking at boats outside the region and not have the time to spend with them like you have here. Even if you don't buy this boat I wouldn't go outside the area for a boat in that price range. If you were spending $50K or more then you might just travel to see boats that are in very good condition. We spent about $500 and a couple days going to look at one boat that looked like the perfect boat on the Internet to find that it had been really neglected since the pictures had been taken.

If the blisters are in one area that will be much easier to address than if they were spread all over the boat and scattered.

Have you considered what you are going to do insurance wise. We have liability only and have our necks stuck out but I just couldn't see paying over $2000 a year for a boat that is as old as ours. 15 years and we would of paid for it twice almost. The insurance was high since we hadn't owned a large boat before. It is probably less now that we have owned her a couple years even though she hasn't been in the water.

How about mooring and or slip fees. You have that figured out? You probably also need to factor in having the bottom clean every month or two depending on what people have done in that area.

If you are close to the boat and can get the safety stuff done quickly and start sailing and do the rest over the next year or so I'd say it might be a good deal for you. At some point you have to forget about if you are going to make money (unlikely), break even (also unlikely) or realize that you are going to get so much enjoyment out of the boat that is worth the cost now, the work and all the expenses down the road. How do you put a value on the enjoyment part. We aren't here this long and the enjoyment part has to come before all the price points,

Sum

Sum, good thoughts, and i have answers...

as for the last sea trial today, it went as well as I hoped it would...
we have came to an agreement on the purchase price, which is where I expected it would be, and am happy with....

the engine may be tired, but it has no leaks and runs great.... we ran it WOT for about an hour(6.8kts) without any issues... the trans may be getting a bit warm at that speed, as it was almost too hot to hold my hand on, but it cooled right down in about 15 minutes after we cut the speed back to 5.5kts... we were out for about 2.5 hrs...
at wide open throttle, it does have a bit of oil smell from the exhaust.. but nothing noticable at less than WOT... im not sure, but it could be because the engine is about an inch over full of oil on the dipstick, which can sometimes be damaging in itself..

I have seen this oil burning effect in other diesel engines that were over full with oil, that were otherwise a perfectly fine and normalrunning engine without excess wear.
my point is, the problem may go away if I suck the excess oil out of it.
im fine with the engine as it is... if a rebuild becomes necessary, sooner rather than later, well, that means ill have a fresh engine sooner than expected.

I live less than an hour from the boat, but as a mobile service tech, im in the area of the moorage several times a week... my plan is to stay on the boat sometimes, or during a short day, and chip away as you say, at the list...

the propane system is first on the list, right after pulling the sails off, and the dodger, and head to the repair shop.... if I recommission the propane locker, i will need to purchase a broad squatty bottle (10lb?).
also needed is a new regulator and new hoses to run to the appliances... there are 2 new 12v lock off valves included with the spare parts....

the boat insurance is being handled by my business insurance people.

all the seacocks are bronze ball valves, all recently replaced and in good condition... one has a spot of green on it that needs inspected and cleaned off, as per the surveyor.

the moorage fees in this area run from 200 to 325 per month, depending on location and amenities... yearly lease is a bit lower.. lots of small marinas to choose from along the columbia river.
as for the bottom cleaning, I am also a professional diver, although I dont do that for a living, I am fully equipped to take care of the underwater stuff myself....

I know it will take awhile to get things in order, as I am one to take a bit of extra time doing things in an attempt to get it right the first time...
I know it will be fun, and a bit of a challenge at times, but I think I can keep the expense down, except for when it comes to the engine refresh...

 

[higgs]

You are putting all this info out here so I can only assume you are looking for feedback as opposed to reinforcement. I keep hearing new reasons to walk away from this deal. An engine overfilled with oil is recipe for damage. The oil will foam and lose its lubrication qualities. How long has this engine been run like this A rebuild is a major expense and a major project - even if you do it yourself. This sounds like a very tired boat that would go for a few thousand around here. I would be interested to hear from you a year from now. You could come to the Great Lakes, find a much better fresh water boat and truck it out for less than you are going to put into this Cal. My opinion, but you seem determined to buy this boat. the one saving grace is that the Cal is a fine design and a well constructed boat.

 

[Sumner]

... You could come to the Great Lakes, find a much better fresh water boat and truck it out for less than you are going to put into this Cal...

I guess I'd have to look at that from say the roles were reversed and the cheap boat was in the NW. For 16K could you go there and start hunting down a boat, inspect it and get it back to the Great Lakes and still save money? He has already spent more than a couple weeks just with this boat and another and he could of been back to square one and spent a lot more time. Unless you are in another area for work or vacation or something I just can't see this working for a boat in this price range.

If you sell through a broker and have it listed where it is easy to find from what I've learned so far, might be wrong, they are going to want a minimum of $3000-$5000 for the sale. So then a person that is selling a 16K boat has to say do I want to go through a broker and end up with 10-13K after the sale? We probably won't go that way, so it will be harder to find our boat listed if someone is searching.

I'd tend to agree with you on boats over 30K or so as you can find listings for a lot of those and possibly narrow the search down before you get those airline tickets and the rental car and book motel rooms.

After hearing about the limited extent of the blisters and that the thru-hulls have been replaced I personally don't see any big problems if he likes the boat. He is a mechanic so has the engine situation under better control than probably 95% of us on here including myself and I've built and installed a number of gas engines. Worst comes to worse he has $4-$5K in the engine at some point and now has an engine he knows the history on and will last a long time. I did the same with our Suburban a year ago, $3500 for a new engine and a transmission rebuild in a vehicle that was worth about $3500. Now we know that it is good to go for as long as we will be around and if we would of sold it and spent $3500 we just would of had another vehicle with 150,000 on it and a wore out engine/trans. I have a shop and can do the above so it made sense for us but probably not for most. I think with CL's skills and such he isn't going to make money on this boat but by the time he has $30,000 into it total it will be ready to take him anywhere in the world safely and conveniently probably more so than if he started with a 10 year old boat selling for a lot more.

The key to the whole thing is does he like it and will he like it 5 years for now. Some of us like to hold onto things forever, me being one guilty of that ,

Sum

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[THECUSCUS]

CL, I just want to comment on the high oil level. These engines were originally built for industrial use, mounted in a level position. The dipstick is thus marked for full. Now take the engine, mount it on an angle Ina boat and use the same dipstick. The oil level will read above the mark. It is recommended to completely drain the oil, and add the correct amount, then scribe a new line on the dipstick. I believe Westerbeke even has a bulletin about this.

 

[centerline]

CL, I just want to comment on the high oil level. These engines were originally built for industrial use, mounted in a level position. The dipstick is thus marked for full. Now take the engine, mount it on an angle Ina boat and use the same dipstick. The oil level will read above the mark. It is recommended to completely drain the oil, and add the correct amount, then scribe a new line on the dipstick. I believe Westerbeke even has a bulletin about this.

THECUSCUS, great information... as Stu Jackson said, i need to gather all the TSB's and manuals on this engine and go thru them....

anyone who has all this information already gathered, feel free to send me a link...
I want all I can get on the engine, trans, and gear box....

the engine will get a service immediately... in addition to the oil being over full, the belts are a bit looser than i would like, and the secondary fuel filter has not been change since 2007...
the PO has already changed ALL rubber and plastic lines thruout the entire boat... on the engine, all thru hulls, new cockpit drains and lines, sanitation system... exhaust lines(but used ABS for a section of it)...


and im not really looking for reinforcement or acceptance that im making the right choice, but i am looking for knowledge... with knowledge, I can make a sound decision all by myself

since joining this forum, I have found it is so easy to give decisive advice to someone else, when its not my pocketbook involved... (and so many others do the same)
now, here I am looking to spend a handful of dollars on something I dont really need, and its hard to justify... I gave the worst description of the boat that i fairly could, and yet no one convinced me that it was not a wise choice to pursue... (although some tried)
when the survey came back, it put things in balance, and i feel it shows there is nothing to be afraid of at this price... and in perspective, the boat looks better to me now.


some may have quite a bit higher budget for their boat than others do, but I have found the cost of something has very little to do with what makes it safe, worthy, or enjoyable...or repairable...
and I have long since learned, no matter if you're poor, or have money to burn, there are many levels of the "right way" to do something, but if the results turn out wrong, it doesnt matter how you got there, its still not done "correctly"... I have learned to do more with less, and even though i may be more fortunate now than when I was growing up, I still practice doing more with less as my first and second choice.... my third choice is to throw some money at it and make the problem go away

some people have life changing events take place and just need to get out of what they are in, especially when, just by having something in their name, its costing them 6-800 dollars a month... money they already dont have... I believe in taking advantage of the cost savings in a deal like this..
and even though i could afford to pay many times more for a boat than this costs, I dont want to... the cost here is so little that i have no worries about a payment, high insurance costs, or high maintenance costs to keep it nice and holding its value... if I do my part, the boat value should hold its own, in relation to what i put into it... after putting 6grand into it, I could see the value rise to 21-25 thousand easy... my labor?.. thats the cost of boat ownership. i have no illusions about what all that entails...

so i feel I have gotten to where I want to be, at this time with this boat... now I need more information passed my way about a Cal 34-III, and its components....

 

[BigEasy]

CL,
Well stated, I do believe that you have done your due diligence in researching this boat.
With your background and knowledge; I think that you know what you are purchasing, as well as anyone can. I think that you have a firm grasp on what will be involved in getting the Cal back in good shape. Congratulations on your decision & purchase. Keep us updated on the progress. Enjoy the journey & don't forget to go sailing along the way!

 

[FastOlson]

Don't forget, a "classic" like the Cal 3-34 has rather high Row Away Factor number too......


Some years ago I did a coastal delivery on one and it has a really gentle motion in a seaway - that same boat later took the owner and his wife to Central America and back to the NW, for a two year cruise.

Loren

 

[jibes138]

Think of it this way. Assume the boat depreciates 1500.00 a year on your capital investment. At $16K you can get 10 or 11 years out of the boat before the depreciated value is zero. Try taking a vacation anywhere for a week and it will cost you a lot more than 1500 bucks, that would just cover a hotel and a few meals. Hard to believe you can go wrong here since nothing looks like it will be an imminent disaster. Constant work and repairs on a boat are normal activities. Show me anyone with an older boat that doesn't have a long list of projects, same thing for any old house or car for that matter. If the canvas on your dodger and bimini is not all rotted out you can restitch them and put in new windows and zippers pretty cheap. I think a home sewing machine will work but if not buy a Sailrite for say 700 bucks and some thread and window material, for well under a grand you will be all set. I made a whole new dodger by taking mine apart in pieces, using them as a pattern and then sewing the new one. Probably cost 400 bucks in materials but that one project saved the cost of the sewing machine. Since I've made a new sail cover (200 bucks), bimini, multiple sails, etc. If a home machine works on the window material and you don't need to buy a machine all the better.

 

[jibes138]

Here's another thought. For $16K you are getting a kitchen, a bedroom, a bathroom, a living room, and a back porch to sit on a nice day. But this house also has a motor so you can move it to a new location when you are sick of the view, or for 16K you can get an old worn out pick up truck with about 60K miles on it. Good luck and enjoy.
Oil in the motor should be checked after it has been run and warmed up. If you checked it cold and it hasn't been run in a while it will show higher and will be a little lower running because of the oil in the valve cover and pump lines. Change the oil and filter, fill it with the recommended amount, run it to warm it up, check the level then fine tune the amount.

 

[shemandr]

. If the canvas on your dodger and bimini is not all rotted out you can restitch them and put in new windows and zippers pretty cheap. .

We had a sailmaker replace the windows on our dodger. I think it was less than $200. He used a better product than the original. Yellowed dodger windows aren't a deal breaker.
After all the posts, I have a suggestion. Buy the boat.

 

[centerline]

Don't forget, a "classic" like the Cal 3-34 has rather high Row Away Factor number too......

Loren

not sure what a row away factor is, but if a higher rating is better, then I like it...

I rolled porky over and rubbed his belly, and money came out of the slot on his back... so I have plenty enough loose change and will pay cash. the paperwork goes in tomorrow...

 

[Bad Obsession]

I have been watching this but I didn't believe that I should weigh in.

Congratulations on making a decision and getting a new boat.

The best advise that I can give you is to make a list and work through it. Do some before and after pics of the boat.

The wonderful thing about working on a boat is that you can make a lot of difference quickly. Simple projects make huge differences and you see them right away. Working on a boat is so much better than working on a house because of this. The satisfaction you get when you get a project done right is a great feeling.

Learning to enjoy the work, priceless!

 

[Roadking Larry]

It's been interesting and educational following your saga. I hope to soon be following a similar path. Looking forward to seeing lots of pictures.

Congratulations.

 

[centerline]

It's been interesting and educational following your saga.

Congratulations.

Its an understatement to say that it absolutely has been for me also...

the surveyor took 435 photos of this boat.... I have all of them.

about 20 are not legible and many are duplicates or different angles of the same item...

about 50 are actually very interesting and enlightening... as I am a picture taker, I will have the before and after pictures posted in my albums.

the survey is in a format that I can copy and use as a checklist for the repairs.

as this is the first survey form that i have ever seen, so without knowing what is normal for a form, I can only say it lists the deficiency at the top of the page, and at the bottom it gives a general idea of what needs to be done to bring it to muster.... so I already have a pretty fair list to work from

the interior is so perfect and nice, there is nothing i can do to make it better, 'cept move ourselves into it and make it ours...

 

[Chris Patterson]

It being you, buy the boat. I know many, many people, (none on here, that's not what I'm saying), that have no business with a project. I can take a single glance at that service truck of yours and know immediately that a man doesn't own that kind of mechanical equipment, without being very well versed on how to use it. At least not long.

 

[Rusty south]

There are so many on the Market, I would walk away as there is always the items you do not know about that you also had to add up. Or throw a low ball offer as it is a buyers market right now.

 

[Maine Sail]

For 16K this boat sounds pretty typical for her age. Those survey items are pretty standard on boats of this age especially boats that were built before safety standards existed.

GFCI's, wing nuts, over current protection, LPG etc. etc. will all need to be brought up to current standards for most insurance companies out there. I would prioritize electrical, LPG and any fuel line, tank, vent issues first as these are hot ticket items for insurance companies to nit pick..

If you don't want to carry any insurance then none of it needs to be addressed, but I would not advise going that route..

The ABYC is not a "code" meaning enforceable by code inspectors. ABYC can conduct spot inspections of manufacturers, whom are building to ABYC standards, but you'll never find the "ABYC boat police" checking up on you.

However if you are insured, and go through an insurance survey, the insurer could care less about when your vessel was built and what the safety standards were at the time. They care about underwriting losses & about safety..

FACT: As a private boater do not need to comply with the ABYC standards.

CAUSE FOR CONSIDERATION: Your surveyor most likely surveys to ABYC standards and your insurance company underwrites your boat based on the surveyors report.

Below are just a few of the "survey" items I have had to deal with over the years with respect to insurers:

*Bond a keel stepped mast to external ballast (after a strike claim) This is not even an ABYC requirement. I argued this topic direct with customers insurer they claimed their internal data suggested less hull damage on lightning bonded sailboats. Their call, they underwrite it, I bonded it.

*Fix wiring in boats for AC Grounding to DC Grounding non-compliance
*Add over current protection where it did not exist (house banks for example)
*2 Boats for the AC inlet / breaker 10' rule
*Multiple boats for an improper AC main breaker (not double pole)
*Multiple boats for lack of GFCI outlets
*Multiple boats for lack of DC over-current protection
*2 Boats for no reverse polarity indicator and single pole branch breakers.
*Multiple boats for LPG system issues
*1 Boat for AC/DC isolation (cover for AC) behind AC/DC panel
*Multiple boats for fuel system issues (too many to list)
*2 boats for non IP battery chargers in engine spaces
*Approx 4 Boats for ignition protection issues on gas boats
*1 gas boat for lack of a bilge blower
*Lack of case bonding of chargers and inverter/chargers
*2 Boats for a bilge pump alarm
*Multiple boats for deteriorated below waterline hoses
*Remove a non compliant on-demand water heater (Excel)
*Multiple battery system compliance issues including venting, acid containment, terminal protection, hold downs/mounting & over current protection
*Multiple unsafe termination issues (solder, wire nuts, improper lug stacking & multiple unsafe AC wiring issues including exposed terminations
*Steering system failures (meat hooks etc.)

There are more that I am surely just forgetting...

Insurance companies and surveyors today are clearly playing a CYA game. In today's day and age it does pay to use the available safety standards as a solid guideline for boat upgrades.

The survey industry uses them so the closer your boat is to those guidelines (ABYC) the better chance you will have a skating through clean on an insurance survey.

The hot button items I have seen with insurers are:


Seacocks & Hoses
Navigation Lights
Bilge Systems
LPG Systems
Ignition Protection Devices
AC Systems
DC Systems
Fuel Systems
Placards & Labeling
Exhaust Systems
CO & Smoke Detectors

It is getting tougher and tougher to find a lick & stick surveyor these days due to the litigious nature of our society. I am sure they are out there, but NAMS and SAMS are getting very structured and precise in what they want to see. Heck most insurers I deal with will now only deal with NAMS or SAMS certified surveyors. The insurers seem to be trying hard to put unqualified & un-certified shingle hanging surveyors out of business these days. A couple of them now apparently want to see repairs done or inspected by industry certified technicians.

About 5 years ago I had an owner who pulled the "I'm grandfathered because my boat was built before the standards existed." card on the insurance company. Sadly for him they dropped his coverage at renewal and he was on his own..

Once dropped he had an extremely trough time finding insurance for his forty year old boat, beautiful as it was. In the end it cost him $700.00+ more per year than the $120.00 in safety upgrades the insurance company wanted to see. He's now probably spent $4000.00 more in added insurance premiums over the $120.00 in safety improvements the insurance company wanted to see... Grandfathered? Not with his insurer... Opps....

NOTE:"Lick & stick" is a term for those of us in states that require State inspection stickers on cars & trucks. Anyone who's ever owned an old car knows what a "lick & stick" garage is..... A few extra dollars and the problems just go away, and he licks the sticker and slaps it on... (wink)
.. (wink)

 

[arelic1949]

WALK AWAY. You haven't bought the boat, and you're already unhappy<.>