Boom kicker or topping lift?

[jon hansen]

the tupping lift on my main boom is wire cable. strong like bull

old school. and my sails are cut with lots of roach

why do you what twist in your sails" hint: you'll sail faster

 

[Tally Ho]

Greg, is it catching the topping lift or the back stay?

There are some boats, I think 6 Meters are an example, that have a short batten off the mast head to hold the topping lift away from the sail. It sticks out maybe a foot. That may be a cheaper solution.

It catches on the topping lift. I have to lower the main about 3“, sail clears the TL, and I raise it again.

I have reached out to North Sail who measured and made the sail, but response yet.

Your idea certainly has merit, and there is a little room between the topping lift and the backstay, but I am not sure what sort of batten would hold it out…

I will look for some photos of a 6 Meter to try and get some ideas…

Thanks for the suggestion.


Greg

 

[Tally Ho]

Mack Sails sells a bracket that bolts to the end of the boom. The Mack Pack is then suspended from the bracket.


View attachment 209620

That is the way mine is set up…


Greg

 

[rgranger]

If you have the reef points tied in and for any reason, the reef clew or tack lest go it will tear the sail in two

Not true for a loose footed main.
Just don’t tie around the boom

 

[Hayden Watson]

Not true for a loose footed main.
Just don’t tie around the boom

Nope, if you tie down the reef points to anything (boom or foot of sail) and the reef line to the reef tack or clew lets loose (or you forget to untie them when you shake out the reef) it will put great tension across the face of the sail with the loads concentrated at the unreinforced reef points and tear the fabric.
I can never understand why so many sailors have no problem with setting the full main with a lose foot but are convinced that the reef NEEDS to be tied down to the boom (or foot of the sail).

 

[Hayden Watson]

It catches on the topping lift. I have to lower the main about 3“, sail clears the TL, and I raise it again.

I have reached out to North Sail who measured and made the sail, but response yet.

Your idea certainly has merit, and there is a little room between the topping lift and the backstay, but I am not sure what sort of batten would hold it out…

I will look for some photos of a 6 Meter to try and get some ideas…

Thanks for the suggestion.


Greg

I have seen this situation often on sport boats with fat-head or big roach mains with relation to the back stay because the sail needs to cross the backstay with every tack. The same is not true as regards the topping lift. There is no reason for the topping lift to change sides. On my C30 with minimal roach, if the topping lift is on port when I raise the sail, it will stay on port until I drop it because it travels with the boom.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I can never understand why so many sailors have no problem with setting the full main with a lose foot but are convinced that the reef NEEDS to be tied down to the boom (or foot of the sail).

I think it’s less about restraining the working part of the sail than it is about bundling the loose cloth so it doesn’t flap around and block sight lines.

 

[RoyS]

I do my reefing at the mast. There are two reef lines for the two levels of reef. Each reef line is attached (tied) to the boom and then goes up through a sail cringle and back down through a sheave at the outer end of the boom, then through the boom to a locking cleat at the hinge end of the boom. The topping lift goes from the outer end of the boom up to a sheave at the top of the mast and down to a cleat at the mast bottom. To put in a reef I first lower the main halyard and attach the appropriate cringle to the hinge end boom hook, then tighten and cleat off the halyard. Next I haul down on the reefing line while simultaneously hauling down on the topping lift as necessary to tighten the reef line around the loose part of the sail. Without the aid of the topping lift I would be unable to fully pull in the reef line to bring the sail reef cringle down to the boom. I suppose a crew member could lift the boom outer end while I hauled in the reef line at the mast but the topping lift makes it a one man job all performed at the base of the mast. Can a boom kicker replace a topping lift in that operation?

 

[jssailem]

I agree with David about the sight lines and flapping are a part of it. But maybe more. We are taught that you need a “Ship shape boat”. No loose lines you’ll trip and fall overboard. We are coached to be “Neatniks”. Everything has a place and must be put away.

So when faced with a 1/3rd of a sail lying about on the boom our instincts kick in and we lash it down. After all the wind is going to blow hard, that’s why we shortened the sail.

You need to also be mindful of your actions. If you are going to bind up a loose sail, you need to reverse your actions or you will pay a cost for forgetting your duty.

 

[jssailem]

Can a boom kicker replace a topping lift in that operation?

It can, but I feel it would add another layer of complexity and change to your procedure.

Fine on a racing boat with lots of crew.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Can a boom kicker replace a topping lift in that operation?

I have never used a boom kicker, but it is easy to imagine that when relaxing the halyard for a reef, you can pull down on the goose neck and, with a boom kicker, it will have the effect of raising the end of the boom naturally.

-Will

 

[dlochner]

Nope, if you tie down the reef points to anything (boom or foot of sail) and the reef line to the reef tack or clew lets loose (or you forget to untie them when you shake out the reef) it will put great tension across the face of the sail with the loads concentrated at the unreinforced reef points and tear the fabric.
I can never understand why so many sailors have no problem with setting the full main with a lose foot but are convinced that the reef NEEDS to be tied down to the boom (or foot of the sail).

This is just not correct for a properly built sail. A properly installed reef point has a reinforced clew and tack and a reinforcements along the reef line. If for some reason the clew let go, a poorly tied knot or fabric failure there would be no pressure on the reefing line as the clew would just fall off to leeward. If he tack let go, there would be pressure on the diagonal from the next higher sail slug back to the clew. Of the two, the tack is more likely let go than the clew because of the design of reef hooks. Once there is sufficient vertical tension the tack should stay in place.

If the tack or clew should fail due to fabric failure or construction failure, there are bigger problems than too much pressure on the unreinforced parts of the sail. If your sail does not have reinforced reef points, then you have a poorly made sail.

One real caution is tying in the reef so that the sail does not have a belly to catch water. Rain and spray can collect in the belly adding unnecessary weight on the sail and it will shower the crew on a tack.

The attached photo shows the reef points on a reinforced strip and well reinforced tacks and clews.

 

[mermike]

On my boat, I use a ring in my topping lift to hold up the aft end of my sail-pak. Question for those of you who have a rigid vang and not topping lift with a main sail pack. How do you support the aft end of the pack?

My stack pack has battens at the end. The battens hold the end of the pack up, which helps because I don't use a topping lift. Unfortunately the battens make it hard to tuck the pack out of the way which is useful in light air.

 

[jssailem]

Unfortunately the battens make it hard to tuck the pack out of the way which is useful in light air.

I just confirms... a sailboat is a series of compromises powered by a fickle breeze.

 

[FDL S2]

This thread is getting interesting, I’m learning a lot, but what I really want to know is how simple is it to add a topping lift versus adding a boom kicker?

It took me 45min to install a boomkicker on my boat. The mast side of the kicker has a slide bracket that drops down the track, then the lower end of the kicker attaches to it with a pin. Two holes drilled and tapped in the boom for the bracket. It is very simple and holds the mast up when I have the sail down. I also have a vang to adjust the twist in the sail. I can get you pics if you want when I go out to the boat tonight.

 

[FDL S2]

Some pics of the boom mount, entire boom kicker and vang, and the mast mount

 

[Scott T-Bird]

After reading 3 pages, I've concluded that there really is no good answer! It's really a personal preference. That said, I look at the boom kicker (or rod kicker as it is also called) as basically a small boat feature. I wouldn't put one on your P30. If you want to replace your vang, I'd put a proper rigid vang on instead. Garhauer could easily set you up. Then you don't need your pigtail and you can use your main halyard as others have suggested. If you don't want to add a rigid vang, then definitely add a proper topping lift. It can be a spare main halyard or a useful hoist as you please. I'd guess that you have a spare sheave at top, so may as well run a full topping lift to a cleat on the mast or led back to cockpit, your choice.

I have a rigid vang and glad I do. I also have a proper topping lift, run through a sheave at the top of the mast and led back to the cockpit. It is used to hoist the dutchman sail flaking system.