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Beneteau 45 Code 0 vs Spinnaker

May 10, 2007
42
Beneteau 45 Annapolis
I'm trying to decide if I should order a spinnaker along with the code 0 for my Beneteau 45 or if the spinnaker would pretty much be redundant. Has anyone sailed at 45 downwind with the code 0 and / or a spinnaker?
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
6,871
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
What does your sailmaker say? The trend for off wind cruising has lately been a hybrid sail that could be called a "cruising code zero" CCZ. When you're getting quotes.. mention the CCZ to the sailmaker.
Unless you have plenty of energetic crew... changing sails is unnecessary any more. Full roach main, possibly furling. Furling upwind sail.... 110%. And a reaching and offwind sail such as the CCZ that can be left on the bowsprit with a top down, continuous line furler.
 
May 10, 2007
42
Beneteau 45 Annapolis
We are definitely getting the CCZ with a UV cover. I plan to leave it up and ready to go. Currently I have a Catalina 42 with a spinnaker pole converted to bow sprit. I can fix the pole to the deck using a ring near the bow. I fly a spinnaker that is just slightly asymmetrical. The Catalina does quite well at a fairly deep angle with this setup. I'm wondering if the CCZ will go down far enough, or I should consider a setup like the Catalina has. I have not asked the sailmaker, but I will do so.
 
Nov 8, 2010
10,812
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I would think hard about the code 0.

With your boat's sailplan (non-overlapping headsail), you weakest point-of-sail will be light air reaching. A code is made for that.

But in addition, it also makes a decent spinnaker. You just cannot go as deep as a traditional asym, but unless you are racing that will not matter much.

It also fly much better with less watching, as the luff is MUCH less likely to collapse. And being of a furler is easier to set, douse, and gybe.

Just don't leave it up. BAD.
 
May 10, 2007
42
Beneteau 45 Annapolis
Leaving the CCZ up = bad? I am being told if it has the UV cover it's better to leave it up than to stuff it in a bag. Take it down over the winter and coil it up in as large coils as possible. Perhaps there are pros and cons to each.
 
Nov 8, 2010
10,812
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Leaving the CCZ up = bad? I am being told if it has the UV cover it's better to leave it up than to stuff it in a bag. Take it down over the winter and coil it up in as large coils as possible. Perhaps there are pros and cons to each.
Who told you that? I'd be interested in hearing one PRO to that idea.

Leaving up adds HUGE windage. Right in from of your jib.
It can unfurl at the WORST possible times.
If you don't back off the halyard tension it messes with the rest of your rug tune and is bad for the gear. Slacking it makes the furler zero flop around in the breeze.
It made of nylon. furling and stuffing in a bag has absolutely no bad effect.

You don't want a UV cover on it. Have you ever seen a zero furl?? Its a mess. Unlike a jib it has absolutely no clean edge to the furl. I can't image it.

I didn't just read this stuff, I sail with zeros all the time.
 
Last edited:
Aug 5, 2012
3
Catalina 320 Lansing, NY
Check out Doyle's UPS spinnaker. It's a furling all purpose spinnaker. I use it from 75 degrees apparent to deep downwind. Couldn't be easier to deploy, and I use it frequently sailing singlehanded on my Catalina 320. Going wing-on-wing gives me a much deeper downwind angle.
I also have an asymmetric that I use when racing, with a crew, and when going deeper downwind. More sail area, fuller sail. But it's hard to beat that continuous line furler on the UPS.
 
Oct 27, 2010
106
E-22 e-22 Stratford
I'm trying to decide if I should order a spinnaker along with the code 0 for my Beneteau 45 or if the spinnaker would pretty much be redundant. Has anyone sailed at 45 downwind with the code 0 and / or a spinnaker?
Steve: The current thinking is to fit the boats with a 'reacher' / 'screacher' / "code zero minus'/
This is effectively a large free flying full genoa that sheets to your spinnaker blocks. It is a light air genoa up to about 10-12 true, adding a big does of fun to upwind lightair work and then anytime you are reaching or heavier are running.
Once you are into the upper teens you can sail as low as 145d apparent and be smoking fast with it up. It's weak point is say between 5-15c at low angles..(can be helped with a wisker pole).
We do these all the time..made from a light laminate or radial dacron 5.6oz in your case AND with a cover. As the whole idea is to make the sailing simple, you can leave it up most the time, unless the wind is going to go snotty or if you are going to be away from the boat for sometime. People that use them, favor the ease of handling for the loss of 'true' light air off the wind performance an asymmetric spinnaker will give you and absorb the bigger cost of the furling gear over that of a dousing sock for same reason. If you're sailing in MD...then you just have to think about the type of sailing you do to help with the idea of using one. Check with Fred or Chris at Annapolis Yacht Sales...they can make a pretty good case for these as they have used them.
Attached is a picture of a new Beneteau F21 and F25 showing off this type of sail.
Bob Pattison
 

Attachments

Nov 8, 2010
10,812
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Steve: The current thinking is to fit the boats with a 'reacher' / 'screacher' / "code zero minus'/
This is effectively a large free flying full genoa that sheets to your spinnaker blocks. It is a light air genoa up to about 10-12 true, adding a big does of fun to upwind lightair work and then anytime you are reaching or heavier are running.
Once you are into the upper teens you can sail as low as 145d apparent and be smoking fast with it up. It's weak point is say between 5-15c at low angles..(can be helped with a wisker pole).
We do these all the time..made from a light laminate or radial dacron 5.6oz in your case AND with a cover. As the whole idea is to make the sailing simple, you can leave it up most the time, unless the wind is going to go snotty or if you are going to be away from the boat for sometime. People that use them, favor the ease of handling for the loss of 'true' light air off the wind performance an asymmetric spinnaker will give you and absorb the bigger cost of the furling gear over that of a dousing sock for same reason. If you're sailing in MD...then you just have to think about the type of sailing you do to help with the idea of using one. Check with Fred or Chris at Annapolis Yacht Sales...they can make a pretty good case for these as they have used them.
Attached is a picture of a new Beneteau F21 and F25 showing off this type of sail.
Bob Pattison
Bob,
Far out, I learn something new!

Questions:
1) People REALLY leave those things up all day? Fascinating!
2) Use the standard spin halyard? Enough luff tension?
3) On the 25s the sail looks small (and a bad lead angle to the clew) was it sized for the pole?
4) I host the Beneteau First 260/25s Facebook page, can I use that image and your text (with your contact details as well?)
 
May 10, 2007
42
Beneteau 45 Annapolis
Steve: The current thinking is to fit the boats with a 'reacher' / 'screacher' / "code zero minus'/
This is effectively a large free flying full genoa that sheets to your spinnaker blocks. It is a light air genoa up to about 10-12 true, adding a big does of fun to upwind lightair work and then anytime you are reaching or heavier are running.
Once you are into the upper teens you can sail as low as 145d apparent and be smoking fast with it up. It's weak point is say between 5-15c at low angles..(can be helped with a wisker pole).
We do these all the time..made from a light laminate or radial dacron 5.6oz in your case AND with a cover. As the whole idea is to make the sailing simple, you can leave it up most the time, unless the wind is going to go snotty or if you are going to be away from the boat for sometime. People that use them, favor the ease of handling for the loss of 'true' light air off the wind performance an asymmetric spinnaker will give you and absorb the bigger cost of the furling gear over that of a dousing sock for same reason. If you're sailing in MD...then you just have to think about the type of sailing you do to help with the idea of using one. Check with Fred or Chris at Annapolis Yacht Sales...they can make a pretty good case for these as they have used them.
Attached is a picture of a new Beneteau F21 and F25 showing off this type of sail.
Bob Pattison
Thank you Bob. Our plan is to order the Code 0 and see how it goes. We may end up ordering a spinnaker as well, but we can make that call after sailing with the Code 0 for a bit.
 
May 27, 2015
35
Beneteau Oceanis 41 Havre de Grace MD
I am told by my local sail maker that a CCZ will work great for our boat in the light summer winds that we get on the bay. "Oh honey look what I found for the boat" Yeah that should do it. :rolleyes:
 
Oct 27, 2010
106
E-22 e-22 Stratford
Jackdaw,
Yes...the 'technology' came from Cats and maybe volvo round the world boats...early 'screachers' were light weight laminate or nylon...too light for UV covers..it didn't take long for us to figure out everyone would be better served with a real uv cover and a sail that would be strong enough to close haul with in light airs. Cruising cats love these sails and as they don't really sail super low anyway it was a natural. Then came the newer gen. Beneteau's both the OC and sense models which are quite a tick up in hull design/performance and the transition to this type of sail was pretty easy. Some of the Tartans and the blue jacket 40 have picked up on this as a built in.
The sails are not really code zeros as the mid girth is only like 55% of the foot length, compared to the 75% of a code...so we call them screachers on multihulls and reachers on monohulls.
Typically we like to see the halyard as a 2:1 at the top...the more tension on the luff the better it performs as a 'genoa'. Smaller boats maybe not needed.
25 clew height...the sheeting position is a bit further forward than the 21 relative..and as you see it in the picture the sheet is about dividing the clew angle which is what I'd expect with a reaching sail...so the compromise was getting a clew height that makes for a good sail of this sort (higher) but still sheet..so if we go bigger, the clew would get lower and with fixed sheeting point, it would be less of a good reaching sail.
Yes, you can use the image. Beneteau France is starting to equip these two boats with this system instead of the kites, as they found customers just weren't using the spinnakers...which is what we are finding on the bigger boats as well.
Bob
Bob,
Far out, I learn something new!

Questions:
1) People REALLY leave those things up all day? Fascinating!
2) Use the standard spin halyard? Enough luff tension?
3) On the 25s the sail looks small (and a bad lead angle to the clew) was it sized for the pole?
4) I host the Beneteau First 260/25s Facebook page, can I use that image and your text (with your contact details as well?)
 
Nov 8, 2010
10,812
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Jackdaw,
Yes...the 'technology' came from Cats and maybe volvo round the world boats...early 'screachers' were light weight laminate or nylon...too light for UV covers..it didn't take long for us to figure out everyone would be better served with a real uv cover and a sail that would be strong enough to close haul with in light airs. Cruising cats love these sails and as they don't really sail super low anyway it was a natural. Then came the newer gen. Beneteau's both the OC and sense models which are quite a tick up in hull design/performance and the transition to this type of sail was pretty easy. Some of the Tartans and the blue jacket 40 have picked up on this as a built in.
The sails are not really code zeros as the mid girth is only like 55% of the foot length, compared to the 75% of a code...so we call them screachers on multihulls and reachers on monohulls.
Typically we like to see the halyard as a 2:1 at the top...the more tension on the luff the better it performs as a 'genoa'. Smaller boats maybe not needed.
25 clew height...the sheeting position is a bit further forward than the 21 relative..and as you see it in the picture the sheet is about dividing the clew angle which is what I'd expect with a reaching sail...so the compromise was getting a clew height that makes for a good sail of this sort (higher) but still sheet..so if we go bigger, the clew would get lower and with fixed sheeting point, it would be less of a good reaching sail.
Yes, you can use the image. Beneteau France is starting to equip these two boats with this system instead of the kites, as they found customers just weren't using the spinnakers...which is what we are finding on the bigger boats as well.
Bob
Clever stuff. I agree that using a sturdier cloth is better for this application, and slimming the MG helps it furl much better as well as making the luff easier to keep under control and not fluttering. It might however cause trouble (or help!) with your ratings board.

I'd figure that the 25 is probably the end of a 1:1 halyard for the sail; maybe a bit bigger because as you note it truly not a zero nor intended for the loads you'd expect in that application. Nice design for the purpose!

What endless line furler are you having best luck with? The Pogo we sail on switched from a Facnor to a Karver this season; goodness what an improvement!
 
Oct 27, 2010
106
E-22 e-22 Stratford
Jackdaw,
Beneteau France has a couple of videos of the F20 and F25 with the new sail configuration. Note: these were the prototypes, so I'll say up front that the jib on the 25 was a bit long on the foot (you'll see it' sheeted right to the back of the track) but great shots of them sailing with the screacher/CZ's.
The Mains are our 'spitfire' head fitted with all full battens and coupled with completely new and novel lazy bag system.. this, the screecher and the small jib make both these boats really easy and fun to sail.
Here are the links for the youtube vids:
F25 video::
F20 Video:

To answer your question regarding the furlers...both of these are using the Facnor FX900..simple and seem to work pretty effortlessly. I haven't tried the Karvers at this size.

bob pattison
 
Nov 8, 2010
10,812
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Bob, that's very very cool, thanks for sharing that!

I wish Bene would have opted for a sprit for the 25 like they did for the 20. We used to have a Sparcraft pole but I took it off; for the amount of time we used it (normally going symmetric) it was just mostly in the way. The sprit would be nicer for codes anyway. We currently tack our reaching sail to the bow fitting with a short dyneema strop. It works but its not great.



The jib track on the 25 is in the same place as the 260 variant, which makes sense as its position is molded into the deck. But the 260 jib size was limited in size/leech profile by the leech first hitting the D1 stay. As the the 25 has no inners, there is more room for a bigger J. But you run out of track!

PS - I shared the vids on the First 260/2 FB page.

https://www.facebook.com/BeneteauFirst260
 
Jan 22, 2008
7,226
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
In their Chrismas email a day or two ago, Quantum Sails had an extensive writeup on the code zero. It was in my spam inbox, and when I hit delete there was no getting it back. Maybe someone else has it?
 
May 13, 2013
42
Beneteau Sense 50 San diego
My sister ship just completed 20,000 mile two year trip with code zero and uv cover. Used the sail continuously. Never took it off the bow. I went with a two thousand square foot asymmetrical. Faster but spends most of its time in the locker as it weighs more than eighty pounds with the turtle and requires either youth or experience to help me fly it. Last winter in La Paz I rented a locker for it.
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,909
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
I produced this video for Mack Sails this spring...


That is my boat, Endeavour 42, and a Hylas 46 in the vid. My boat has a Bamar continuous line furler and the Hylas has their CZ on a triditional headstay furler with genoa and staysail aft of that.

I have had my Mack Sails Code Zero now since April and love it. We have done 4k in 6k winds from 45 apparent to dead downwind with a Velocity whisker pole.