Battery post torque

Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Maine: Where would you recommend purchasing batteries then? WalMart is the same, so I am jumping to conclusion less expensive???

Or perhaps: "where did you buy your last set of batteries?"
I would suggest Sam's Club as many of them carry the Deka/East Penn batteries. These are the SAME batteries West Marine sells only with a differnt sticker and for less than half the price. Wal*Mart used to sell a better quality JCI battery than they do today. Some of them like the old group 29 was actually a US Battery DCXC.. US Battery was a supplier to JCI and JCI to Wal*Mart. JCI now has a huge new factory and are building a battery that I don't feel is the quality of the original Everstart Maxx Marine...

This is the SAME battery as the West Marine Sea Volt Deep Cycle 105. They sell the WM Deep Cycle 105 for $249.99, this one is $84.67.. You can pay an $165.32 for the West Marine sticker or you can buy the Duracell from Sam's.... They too ship with hex nuts because it is a Deka/East Penn product...

 
Dec 8, 2007
303
-mac 26M -26M tucson-san carlos mx
Interestingly enough I got a post notification just as my daughter and I were walking into our local Wal*mart... these photos were taken at approx 3:52 PM today, December 12th at Wal*Mart in Falmouth, ME....

All of these batteries are made by Johnson Controls, & labeled for Wal*Mart. They have the Wal*Mart in-house brand label of EverStart ...


G-24 Marine Starting 7/13 Date Code



G-29/31 Deep Cycle 9/13 Date Code


G-24 Deep Cycle 9/13 Date Code


G-27 Deep Cycle 11/13 Date Code


Close up of post cover design:


Front of a G-27 DC


Front of a G29/31 DC



G-24 Marine Starting 12/13 Date Code


G-24 Marine Deep Cycle with old label 7/13 Date Code
Damn now I have to go all the way back to walmart and get pictures for you and learn how to post them on top of it. I suppose next you'll make me find a marine mechanic institute graduate with a huge snap-on dale Earnhardt commemorative tool box cross threading a wing nut with his 80dollar wing nut wrench.I knew I shouldn't have commented on a thread you started no matter how ridiculous the subject matter. I am glad to see you are common sense when it comes to recommending battery brands to uninformed owners who tend to think the most expensive agm-gel-li batteries must be the best when in reality costo and walmart battery's will 9 out of 10 times be the most efficient battery to use both economicaly and performance wise. Kudos to you for that at least.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Damn now I have to go all the way back to walmart and get pictures for you and learn how to post them on top of it. I suppose next you'll make me find a marine mechanic institute graduate with a huge snap-on dale Earnhardt commemorative tool box cross threading a wing nut with his 80dollar wing nut wrench.I knew I shouldn't have commented on a thread you started no matter how ridiculous the subject matter. I am glad to see you are common sense when it comes to recommending battery brands to uninformed owners who tend to think the most expensive agm-gel-li batteries must be the best when in reality costo and walmart battery's will 9 out of 10 times be the most efficient battery to use both economicaly and performance wise. Kudos to you for that at least.
I did not start the thread I just responded to a question. You then chose make up your own stats "98% of all batteries come with wing nuts." and I simply responded to that..

I never recommended an $80.00 wing nut wrench just stated they exist. They are pretty cheap too. Mine is home made by cutting notches in an old socket with an angle grinder. I also commented that I quite often need to chase threads where owners have mangled them with pliers. It happens....

If you want to use wing nuts I could care less, just torque them the same as you would a hex nut and there is no difference. The difference, as has been stated, is human error which is what lead to the changes.......
 

Blitz

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Jul 10, 2007
677
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
They need to be vented..... Usually a grate located as close to the top of the compartment as possible works..
I assume vented to the engine side from my quarter berth would not be desired. The only other way would be through bulkhead to main cabin or through a vented locker.
 

Attachments

fa102

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Apr 21, 2013
25
S2 8.0C (keel center board w/ MD7A diesel) long island
I assume vented to the engine side from my quarter berth would not be desired. The only other way would be through bulkhead to main cabin or through a vented locker.
---
Blitz,
ABYC std.10.7.9 states "A vent system or other means shall be provided to permit the discharge from the boat of hydrogen gas released by the battery."

Venting into engine space problematic if the compartments components are not "ignition protected" (if the boat is diesel powered than the DC & AC electric components are not required to be ignition protected). Venting into cabin space poses same theoretical risk
for the presence of non ignition protected components. (Possible solution would be to run a vent line from battery compartment up to a topside mounted exhaust vent.)

I realize that issues like this appear to be "nit-picking / unrealistic / worst case scenarios " but ABYC standards and CFR's are based on research & experience of hazardous factors.

FA
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
I bought two of the group 29DC batteries last week from walmart. (these are not pictured above) They were only $82 with the trade in. I bought the one that did NOT say "premium" (pictured above) because it had more amp hours than the 29dc that was labelled "premium with 30% more cycles". I am trying to put three or four of these in my house bank, but they only had two at the time. I am replacing an old four battery house bank that had battery plus batteries. My onboard charger, original equipment, is at fault for ruining the old batteries. I am currently trying to rebuild energy production and storage system on my boat. Wow there is a lot to learn. That is why I am trolling the forum, reading Don Casey (who sold me on the flooded batteries), Nigel Calder (who seems to favor Gel Cell), and maine sail's DIY site.
Who could explain why the "premium with 30% more cycles" had fewer amp hours than the cheaper version. They were both the 29DC group.,
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
I would suggest Sam's Club as many of them carry the Deka/East Penn batteries. These are the SAME batteries West Marine sells only with a differnt sticker and for less than half the price. Wal*Mart used to sell a better quality JCI battery than they do today. Some of them like the old group 29 was actually a US Battery DCXC.. US Battery was a supplier to JCI and JCI to Wal*Mart. JCI now has a huge new factory and are building a battery that I don't feel is the quality of the original Everstart Maxx Marine...

This is the SAME battery as the West Marine Sea Volt Deep Cycle 105. They sell the WM Deep Cycle 105 for $249.99, this one is $84.67.. You can pay an $165.32 for the West Marine sticker or you can buy the Duracell from Sam's.... They too ship with hex nuts because it is a Deka/East Penn product...

I don't see the amp hour rating on that battery Maine Sail. I can't buy it because in Don Caseys "This old boat" he says to "bypass any battery that does not list an amp hour rating" (i don't have the book with me right now but it is something like that);)
I note that the battery is labeled 29HM, how does that differ from the walmart 29DC?
keith
 
Dec 8, 2007
303
-mac 26M -26M tucson-san carlos mx
I don't see the amp hour rating on that battery Maine Sail. I can't buy it because in Don Caseys "This old boat" he says to "bypass any battery that does not list an amp hour rating" (i don't have the book with me right now but it is something like that);)
I note that the battery is labeled 29HM, how does that differ from the walmart 29DC?
keith
not sure but isn't 225 amp stamped on top of battery, my magnification doesn't quite go high enough. its a shame don casey wont let you buy that battery. its probably one of the highest quality battery's you'll find out there, see at the top side bottom edge EAST Penn made it.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I don't see the amp hour rating on that battery Maine Sail. I can't buy it because in Don Caseys "This old boat" he says to "bypass any battery that does not list an amp hour rating" (i don't have the book with me right now but it is something like that);)
I note that the battery is labeled 29HM, how does that differ from the walmart 29DC?
keith

The Ah capacity is 105Ah at the 20 hour rate. The 29HM is the same battery as a West Marine deep cycle 105.... If you know what you are looking at some batteries that don't display Ah can be a good value if you know where to look for that info... I agree with Casey that "in general" you don't want to buy a battery without a 20 hour rating but some relabelers tend to omit this data even though the batt does have a 20 hour rating.. The Duracell 29HM is also the identical battery to the Deka DC31DT.....

The current Wal*Mart batteries have JUNK specs, in terms of Ah capacity, that are meaningless and no one at Wal*Mart has been able to get me the correct 20 hour rate..
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
The Ah capacity is 105Ah at the 20 hour rate. The 29HM is the same battery as a West Marine deep cycle 105.... If you know what you are looking at some batteries that don't display Ah can be a good value if you know where to look for that info... I agree with Casey that "in general" you don't want to buy a battery without a 20 hour rating but some relabelers tend to omit this data even though the batt does have a 20 hour rating.. The Duracell 29HM is also the identical battery to the Deka DC31DT.....

The current Wal*Mart batteries have JUNK specs, in terms of Ah capacity, that are meaningless and no one at Wal*Mart has been able to get me the correct 20 hour rate..
bummed
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
i guess ill go ahead and get the other two anyway, since that are cheap. Ill try to keep an eye on the monitor (once I learn how to use the darn thing) and maybe milk them along a season or two.
 
Jun 7, 2004
36
Catalina 320 Middle River, MD
They need to be vented..... Usually a grate located as close to the top of the compartment as possible works..
Perhaps you should have responded to the post about venting via the engine room. I thought that was a no-no as hydrogen gas is combustive.
 
Jun 7, 2004
36
Catalina 320 Middle River, MD
In dealing with Interstate batteries over an issue of selection, they told me for a rough estimate of amp hours, multiply the RC minutes (Reserve Capacity) by 0.60. (I think I have that right by memory.) So RC=650 * .60 = 390AH. Perhaps that is useful.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Perhaps you should have responded to the post about venting via the engine room. I thought that was a no-no as hydrogen gas is combustive.
If in an engine room they still need ventilation. Engine rooms are more of a no-no due to heat which greatly reduces battery life. With proper charging engine rooms can work provided they are well ventilated so any gas can escape. Still any devices mounted in the same space as the batteries should be "IP" or ignition protection rated. Despite millions and millions of boats out there with batteries installed in engine spaces, and in cabin spaces, battery gas explosions are still very, very rare. Boats are pretty leaky and hydrogen gas seems to find ways of escaping even when I don't see vents present..... If your batteries and items in the battery compartment are constantly getting corroded terminals that is a good sign you are lacking good ventilation.

For example this photo was taken at year six of this banks life. Note the lack of corrosion on lugs and terminations. This is a good sign that you have good ventilation...

 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
In dealing with Interstate batteries over an issue of selection, they told me for a rough estimate of amp hours, multiply the RC minutes (Reserve Capacity) by 0.60. (I think I have that right by memory.) So RC=650 * .60 = 390AH. Perhaps that is useful.
Reserve capcity or reservve minutes is the number of minutes the battery will supply at a 25A load before hitting 10.5V.

Due to Peukert constants being different among batteries any translation can only be a rough approximation..650 reserve minutes would be a HUGE battery. Don't confuse MCA, CCA and RC... RC and Ah are not the same and conversions are rarely spot on accurate.

A number of times on this and other forums I have come across situations where a battery owner is confusing RC with Ah or MCA or CCA..

Battery life/longevity is a constant topic of frustration for sailors and there are lots of factors that come into play, which I will not bore you with here. What makes this even more frustrating is the confusion between Reserve Capacity (RC) and Amp Hours (Ah). Reserve Capacity, or more accurately Reserve Minutes, is how long the battery can support a 25 amp load before dropping to 10.5 volts.

RC and Ah are not one in the same. Usually, most batteries that do not have an amp hour rating are often not a purpose designed deep cycle battery. However in many cases a battery is private labeled and may have a 20 hour rate but they chose to omit it in the labeling. Some still are, but have not been Ah tested or the vendor relabeling the battery just chooses not to publish the 20 hour Ah rate..

A safe bet is to always by a battery with a 20 hour Ah capacity rating. This ensures that the battery has been tested and rated for such. You still can use the RC/Reserve Capacity number but this number should generally be divided by two to arrive at a close Ah capacity. There is not really accurate conversion factor I have found.

Keep in mind that the new Wal*Mart rating is pretty much meaningless. For the group 29/31 it says 114Ah @1.. That is about as poor and meaningless a rating as it gets.

A group 31 battery should produce between 100Ah and 130Ah depending upon brand. The 20 hour load for a 100Ah battery would be 5A and the 20 hour load for the 130Ah battery would be 6.5A.

At a 1A load a 100Ah battery would produce 149Ah's with a Peukert of 1.25

At a 1A load a 130Ah battery would produce 208Ah's with a Peukert of 1.25

If in fact the Wal*Mart battery is 114Ah (20 hour rate) then the load at which it will deliver its 20 hour rate is 5.7A not 1A.... Due to the piss poor labeling this rating is either meaningless or completely incorrect. No one at Wal*Mart or JCI can confirm the specifications on these batteries, I have tried to get them...

Back to RC calculations. The Trojan AGM 4D battery is rated at 325 RC and 165 Ah. If you divide by 2 you would get 162.5 Ah's. This is a close approximation to the Ah capacity of THIS given battery but still not exact.

If we take the Duracell 29HM from earlier in this thread we can see that it has 105Ah and a RC of 185 minutes. If we divide by 2 we get 92.5Ah's. If we divide by 2 and add 16 we get 108.5. Still neither hit this exactly. If we do 185 x .60 we wind up at 111Ah's... RC and Ah don't exactly translate due to Peukert....

We as boaters need to be careful because RC/RM is generally almost DOUBLE what the usual Ah rating is. I have even seen rather astute and knowledgeable owners who've stated that their battery had XXX Ah's. The reality is that this battery was never rated in Ah capacity and only in RC/RM so this bank was nearly HALF the size the owner thought it was. This can prove to be an expensive miscalculation.

Using the 29HM from above again, "I have a 185Ah battery so that means 50% SOC is 92.5Ah that I can remove." Remove 92.5Ah from a 105Ah battery and were are you!!!!:cry:

Mistaking RC/RM for Ah can be a dangerous and costly mistake and I actually see it quite frequently. You could kill your batts and be left dead in the water especially if your think after removing 150 AH from a 300 RC bank you are only at half discharge when you are actually closer to flat dead.

There are a few theories on how to determine Ah capacity from RC/RM but none that I have found spot on. Some say to divide RC by 2 then to add 16 to that number while others just say to divide by 2. Some say RC X .60 etc.. None have come up exact when applied to multiple examples of known battery Ah ratings. Why? Each battery has is own Peukert constant. A battery with a Peukert of 1.11 wont translate the same as a battery with a Pekert of 1.49...

Personally I prefer to buy batteries rated for Ah capacity rather than to attempt a guess as any guess could throw off a battery monitor or energy budget or could leave you depleting your bank beyond 50% DOD (depth of discharge) which can drastically shorten its life..

If you buy a specific group size battery eg: group 24, 27, 29/31, 4D, 8D etc. and the one you're buying has a significantly higher "rating" than others of the same physical size that should be a red flag that you may be looking at an RC/RM measurement rather than an Ah capacity measurement..
 
Jun 28, 2005
440
Hunter H33 2004 Mumford Cove,CT & Block Island
Warren,

The problem with wing nuts is they lend themselves, by design, to ineptitude and laziness. Thumb tight for battery cables is NOT okay....:cussing::cussing: This sort of laziness is what has driven the marine industry to pretty much ban them.

The proper method to install a wing nut is at the same torque required by the battery manufacturer. This CAN NOT be done with your thumb and forefinger. It requires a wing nut wrench or other means to apply good torque.. There really is such a thing as a wing nut wrench....

P.S. Do you know who owns the Hunter 28 (could be another size) First Light out of Yorktown? I was in VA last week and snapped a shot of it thinking it may be yours but I see your boat is not named First Light....
As long as you are torquing, and must use wing nuts use a wing nut socket.

With or without wing nuts should you also use a lock washer on Battery Posts?
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Interesting discussion

I gather one can torque wing nuts with wing nut socket or one can torque hex nuts with hex nut socket.

So where does one find a reliable inch-pound torque wrench under 250 USD?

Charles
 
Sep 15, 2009
6,243
S2 9.2a Fairhope Al
Interesting discussion

I gather one can torque wing nuts with wing nut socket or one can torque hex nuts with hex nut socket.

So where does one find a reliable inch-pound torque wrench under 250 USD?

Charles
try Home Depot or Lowes in the tool department or maybe google it and there should be several options......

regards

woody
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Woodster

Many thanks but no joy at any box stores in my region. Tried all of same and the result is - they have click type only - no dial type/no beam type. In addition, these click type lower limits are around 120 inch pounds. I would rather have the lower limit at 0 inch pounds.

Charles

ps MainSail is very resourceful - perhaps he can tell us where he gets the one he uses.
 
Last edited:
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Woodster

Many thanks but no joy at any box stores in my region. Tried all of same and the result is - they have click type only - no dial type/no beam type. In addition, these click type lower limits are around 120 inch pounds. I would rather have the lower limit at 0 inch pounds.

Charles

ps MainSail is very resourceful - perhaps he can tell us where he gets the one he uses.
Amazon...