Are we too soft or too hard on newbies ??

[Maine Sail]

Hi All,

Yesterday I asked about a boat that washed up on a beach in NH. Here is what I know so far and it is second hand information through my mother.



1) He left the boat unattended on an anchor in the open Atlantic Ocean. This anchorage offers almost no protection.

2) He had recently purchased the boat in Portland, ME for a reported 5k and was reportedly en-route to Florida.

3) He allegedly had no insurance.

4) He was reported to have little sailing knowledge. This opinion/info comes through a buddy who is a Mass Maritime graduate. The wrecked boat came to rest in front of his house down by the "wall" or the big cement sea wall along North Beach.

5) He was apparently kicked out of Hampton Harbor because he had no insurance so he found his way to Plaice Cove, NH in North Hampton, which is on the open ocean. When I was a kid we had a nice fleet of 16-20 foot day sailors and some commercial lobsterman moored in the "cove" but no one kept a boat larger than about 25 feet there for more than an overnight. Plaice Cove used to be a USCG rescue boat station and when I was a kid there were about 18-24 boats moored there. Today there are five or six, max, mostly center console fishing boats. It is still on the open ocean and quite unprotected.




So that is what I know thus far. As more info become available I will let you guys know.


I know many here have been accused of being harsh on newbies by preaching the need for a basic set of skills before you head off. Stuff like; anchoring, repair, reefing, sail handling, plotting etc. etc. This guy was apparently somewhat lacking in the anchoring skills dept. This essentially ruined his boat. I also don't know how he'll pay for the clean up and removal of the boat or if the local tax payers will shoulder that burden?

If he had made better decisions for the local waters / conditions he would have likely sailed back to the Kittery/Portsmouth area, after being kicked out of Hampton Harbor, where there are lots of protected spots to anchor most with very good holding. It's only one more hour+/- up into the river from Plaice Cove.

If this guy had come here we may have scared him off? I hope that would not have been the case? Perhaps when events like this happen maybe we are not being direct enough??

I do however think it is the duty of fellow sailors to not just shrug off suggesting a basic set of skills before attempting a trip from say Maine to Florida??? This is an accident that was easily 100% avoidable IMHO..

So do we let these guys off too easily or are we too harsh on them by suggesting a basic skill set?

 

[Phil Herring]

Re: Are we soft or to hard on newbies ??

IMHO, it's all about how the message is delivered. A newbie won't be run off by a vet explaining what needs to be learned.

But he will be run off by folks telling him he's an idiot.

 

[kendall]

Re: Are we soft or to hard on newbies ??

Agree, delivery means a lot.

When asking about a boat, as in "I'm looking at an O'day 22 , what can you tell me about them?" Most answers will run to surveys, what line he has to switch everything to, (spectra or curent flavor of the week), best furler, what anchor he needs to have, what sailing schools he needs to get into, or that he should buy a 26 footer instead because a 22 is too small. All answers given with no knowledge of the boat, his sailing area, or the guy's skill level, and none of them answering the question which is "what can you tell me about the O'day 22".

ken

 

[Warren Milberg]

Re: Are we soft or to hard on newbies ??

One of the real attractions, among many, of this site, compared to a number of other sailing blogs, is its kind, gentle, and nurturing nature. Every now an then, a newbie will ask a question that may produce a flame, but it is usually short-lived and then becomes self-extinguishing. It's easy to dismiss a question that most experienced sailors know the answer to, and it takes some effort to explain things to someone new to the sport. Yet, someone always steps up to the plate and offers an in-depth answer, often with images or a url reference. I hope it stays that way

 

[Tim R.]

Stern but sincere

A well composed delivery is always a good way to start. Some newbies can be pretty stuborn though. They ask a question trying to get confirmation and the vast majority disagree. He then does it his way anyhow.

One issue I have with public forums is the quality of the responses. Some offer help based on second hand knowledge which can be inaccurate. I try to only respond when I have real world experience with the subject, not just what I heard down at the docks.

On an experience related note. I saw a boat that was stuck on a windward shoal this weekend up in the freeport area. the wind had been blowing from the NE for 2 days. The charts are very clear to show that the area was not deep and has a very narrow, shallow channel that leads nowhere. How did they get there? At the time I saw him, it was nearly high tide(rising) so he must have been there a very long time(see the red flag)

 

[Tom]

I think we try to keep it real...

If a guy starts out by asking for help, he can get good solid advice here. Heck we were all newbies once, I wish the web was around when I started out. It's the guy that starts out with 'well I just bought a 65 foot sailboat and I'm single handing around the world leaving saturday, did I buy the right boat? and what is that really tall stick standing up in front of the bathtub like thing in that you stand in??' that frightens the heck out of me. No, we are not too hard on the newbies.
Tom
s/v GAIA

 

[TimCup]

Maine Sail, your post brings up alot of points-

and, sadly, I'm gonna respond!

Soft or too hard? definitely not too soft. Why? Almost invariably, someone will point out the posters lack of knowledge/experience/vocabulary. And even though most will be polite, the newbie doesn't know if the rude guy is a regular, or some other new guy having a bad day. The poster will only remember how badly he was made to feel for "asking a stupid question".

Is that fair to the forum? No, but we're big boys, right?

As for your basic skill set? I think your term "preaching" is pretty accurate. I'll bet alot of those newbies feel preached to, but I don't know a better way to get the point across. We spend alot of time talking about it, but those that should be listening usually aren't reading this forum, are they?

"If he had even the most basic set of skills". Wow, where to start...

Understand, Maine Sail, that the only info I have is from your post, but-

1-He anchored in a cove where 5 or 6 other boats where anchored- seems a reasonable approach, particularly since he was ousted from his last spot, and was probably just looking for a place where he wouldn't be 'evicted' again. Yes, fairly unprotected, but THOSE boats seem okay...

2-He would have clearly sailed back to the Kitt...? He's from Maine, going to Florida. He's found an unfamiliar place where other boats are anchored. Doesn't sound too awful...

3- "the guy was young". You backpedalled nicely, but your slip IS showing. If it meant nothing, why bring it up? Me thinks your not just the messenger!

4- His ground tackle broke. He fouled some pots, and the fisherman cut him loose. Cleats gave way. Or something else, other than he improperly set the anchor? You are probably right, he set wrong. But we don't know that, and your post belittles the guy without having the facts. Just reading your post might intimidate a newbie enough to where he won't ask for help.

5-"he grew up on the water and knows a boater with little skills when he sees one"- I'm sure the guy knows his stuff, but your post says the boat washed up in front of his house. As I understand it, it was anchored, broke free, sailed out to sea and then came to rest there. It doesn't sound like the boat was anchored in front of his to start with, unless the boat went out and came back in the same place(?), so when did your friend have the opportunity to judge this guys skill set?

Maine Sail, I hope I don't have to reiterate my respect for you, in virtually all aspects, but if this were about driving big rigs, and you were an aspiring trucker, how would you read the tone of your post? As others have said, it's all in the delivery.


cup

ps- I've GOT to go offline now. I'm not ignoring, just gotta go. I'm sure I'll have mail to answer tomorrow!!

 

[Ross]

Re: Stern but sincere

There is a wide assortment of newbes that come here. Some are so green that they can't ask a question or the question is so broad that it defies an answer. My approach with those is to ask that they narrow the question a little.
One that I remember was, " How big a boat do I need to take everything the great lakes has to offer?" I told him that nobody knows . That the Edmond Fitzgerald was lost in a great lakes storm. He rephrased his question.

 

[Rick D]

We Can Be Condescending and Sarcastic...

...sometimes. Mostly not, but we should take a deep breath and stop before hitting 'submit'. I have seen my share of good folks get blown away by curt replies. I disagree that someone should be tough enough to handle it if they post here, at least in the beginning. Further, I do not believe it's necessary to give a USCGA lesson in reply to a new poster's question. It does not hurt to use a tad bit of diplomacy in the answers to an obviously inexperienced question, and a point to archives or a link to one on the same subject is a good way to answer a redundant one. The truth is that not everyone starts out with a PHD in sailing. I am more careful than most, even when I was new at it fifty years ago. However, my contemporaries pretty much learned eventually, and perhaps even better by trial and error rather than by research and planning. Yes, people can get killed in this recreation, but they have to go a ways to accomplish it. At least that's my take on it.

 

[Maine Sail]

"If he had even the most basic set of skills". Wow, where to start...

Understand, Maine Sail, that the only info I have is from your post, but-

1-He anchored in a cove where 5 or 6 other boats where anchored- seems a reasonable approach, particularly since he was ousted from his last spot, and was probably just looking for a place where he wouldn't be 'evicted' again. Yes, fairly unprotected, but THOSE boats seem okay...

Those boats are permanently moored not anchored in a open ocean "divot" in the shoreline on permanent moorings. The mooring for our old Rhodes 19 was roughly 5000 pounds of granite. It may say Plaice Cove but it is not a cove like one would think and is exposed about 170 degrees. This time of year the boats that moor there have usually been hauled. Six boats is mid summer numbers not October sorry for the confusion.

2-He would have clearly sailed back to the Kitt...? He's from Maine, going to Florida. He's found an unfamiliar place where other boats are anchored. Doesn't sound too awful...

I guess not if you think anchoring in the open Atlantic Ocean in October, then leaving your boat unattended, is a good idea when good protection is roughly an hours sail.

3- "the guy was young". You backpedalled nicely, but your slip IS showing. If it meant nothing, why bring it up? Me thinks your not just the messenger!

You're right I have removed that irrelevant portion of my post. Thanks for keeping me in line! My whole point in bringing this up was to open dialect around the issues surrounding mishaps that involve loss of property that could have potentially been avoided...

I just found out he was actually "early 30's" according to my buddy who spoke with him so my mothers sense of "young" is off. Of course if he met my mother he might think she was 80 not 65?? I was thinking 18-19 maybe 20 from her description. That's why I did not specify an age..

4- His ground tackle broke. He fouled some pots, and the fisherman cut him loose. Cleats gave way. Or something else, other than he improperly set the anchor? You are probably right, he set wrong. But we don't know that, and your post belittles the guy without having the facts. Just reading your post might intimidate a newbie enough to where he won't ask for help.

The guys boat was dragging around for a long time. It moved out to sea with the NW winds then back again. At one point it was a third of the way between Boars Head & Plaice Cove. I don't know what happened just that it had been dragging for a while, my mother reported it to authorities BTW. I never actually said anything about setting or how it happened just that it did happen. The bottom line is this. His boat is destroyed because he did not secure it sufficiently for the conditions. That's all, and I think most would agree that it falls under the anchoring skills category.

I don't know which particular part of anchoring he messed up on and won't speculate.. Please keep in mind that we did NOT have a storm. His boat wound up on the beach due to normal October conditions while he was away from it..

5-"he grew up on the water and knows a boater with little skills when he sees one"- I'm sure the guy knows his stuff, but your post says the boat washed up in front of his house. As I understand it, it was anchored, broke free, sailed out to sea and then came to rest there. It doesn't sound like the boat was anchored in front of his to start with, unless the boat went out and came back in the same place(?), so when did your friend have the opportunity to judge this guys skill set?

You're right the boat was not anchored in front of his house to start with but it wound up there. My buddy talked to him when he showed up to observe his vessel and did talk with him. Apparently today he came back and removed a bunch of stuff from the boat but it's still there..

Maine Sail, I hope I don't have to reiterate my respect for you, in virtually all aspects, but if this were about driving big rigs, and you were an aspiring trucker, how would you read the tone of your post? As others have said, it's all in the delivery.

I guess I would read it as use your e-brake not just "park" and also set your wheel chocks??

Seriously though I would hope people would read it and realize that the ocean is no place to take chances and no place to take lightly and that one should acquire some basic skills before embarking including some level of prudent decision making, anchoring and securing of your vessel among others.

I can only report what I have for info, and it may change if we get more. I think it should serve as a reminder about how powerful the Ocean can be even in "normal" conditions and that one should respect it and be careful....

 

[Ian4781]

Boy oh boy...The great father has spoken!!! With only fifty years on the water I would not dare to ask or answer a question on this forum....lets get all the facts before you judge.I seem to think that there are few of us who have not made errors in our lives..

 

[Scott B]

Yes / No / Maybe

Some people are more rash and will jump into something with both feet without even looking back to see what they did right or wrong. Others, like me, will research something 100 times over before making a descision or acting.

I've seen posters come on here and get flamed to the point that they delete their original post and leave for a while. Fortunately they came back, unfortunately the one (s) responsilble are still around.

I think that after seeing the 100th post on whether a Hunter is Bluewater capable or what boat should I buy, people get edgey and shoot from the lips. It may be the original post was legit ( sometimes I wonder if the posts are made up to stir things up ) and was asked in all good intentions. People don't always think to research or search on a topic before just asking, since its easier to ask than search.

As for this guy with the beached boat, it can only be guessed how he ended up buying the boat and if he had the intentions or sense to go looking for help on what to do with the boat.

 

[Maine Sail]

Boy oh boy...The great father has spoken!!!

Did I piss in your Cheerios or something??

With only fifty years on the water I would not dare to ask or answer a question on this forum....

That's really too bad. We'd love to hear from you and your experiences more often..

Lets get all the facts before you judge.I seem to think that there are few of us who have not made errors in our lives..

I always try to share my errors here so others wont repeat my "Darwinesque" mistakes. I'm clearly NOT perfect, or anywhere near it, nor would I expect anyone else to be. I only passed on the info I was given, being careful to not state second hand knowledge as fact, despite it coming from very good sources. The only facts we really know are:

1 His boat is totaled
2 It was anchored in the open Atlantic Ocean in October
3 It was left unattended anchored in the open ocean.

 

[Ross]

Boy oh boy...The great father has spoken!!! With only fifty years on the water I would not dare to ask or answer a question on this forum....lets get all the facts before you judge.I seem to think that there are few of us who have not made errors in our lives..

Ian, with fifty years of sailing under your keel you seem to be ready with a rebuke but very short on sharing your years of experience. I looked at your public profile and presume that you must be a very private person. We could benefit from your years of sailing experience if you could find time to share with us.
Thank you for your interest in this discussion.

 

[Stillraining]

IMHO, it's all about how the message is delivered. A newbie won't be run off by a vet explaining what needs to be learned.

But he will be run off by folks telling him he's an idiot.

I could not agree more...treat them like you would want to be treated if it was your first post or keep quite if you cant.....my kids can't hear me for my screaming.

How many so called "true idiots" have any of us actually been successful in changing their behavior in any way anyhow? Teaching is only successful to thoes whom want to be taught...the trick is getting them to want to.

I like to sail in 40 knt of wind come to find out...calling me an Idiot hampers both of us as it shuts down the communication to learn from each other.


Too bad ..nice looking boat

 

[Ross]

Stillraining, Just for myself I must ask, "How much sail do you fly in forty knots?" My early physics says that energy equals mass times velocity squared. That means that the force of the wind at forty is sixteen times as great as the force of the wind at ten knots.

 

[Randyonr3]

There are, I would think, a good number of, those of us with a number of years sailing who just hang around and let those who do, do just that.
figure I've got 45 years of sailing under my belt, and a good number of that, in salt water somewhere. Taught my sons to sail and now working on the grandkids.
I see a regular theme abound in this forum, and that is if you dont go along with the pack, your ousted by the numbers..
Blue Water Boats is a good example, as I've read a number of responces from those posting to a newbe that speak as a god to say the only blue water boat made should have a full keel and spade rudder, because they read it somewhere.. and in the background, I'm laughing and thinking there full of crap...
What I'd like to see, And I know its wishfull thinking, is that you only responded to a question when you had practical experance in the subject.
If a person is asking about a perticular anchor for using in the south pacific, they shouldnt get a reply from someone using an anchor in the south of Florida or in a lake in Texas...... Or from a person that was told by someone that they read an artical about someone that knew a guy who crewed on a boat that the captain used this anchor on an around the world trip.......
Sometimes I just have to set back and laugh at some of the crap as advice that some put out.............
Edit to the post.........
Theres a post with a question from a newbe on the forum, concerning using as 40 foot hunter in the mid 80s vintage for cruising...
And a number of posts from the regulars on the forum, but not a one from someone that really knew what the mid 80s hunter is..
All the posts stear the newbe away from the hunter and to what they would think is a more "sea worthy boat".. And even to the point I made mention before, posting names of books as to what was a "real" blue water cruising boat...
I guess that none of you are familar with the 40 foot hunter of the mid 80s.. a boat built tough as nails, and from personal experance, I've sailed one and they are a lot tougher than a lot of the ocean cruisers built today..

 

[Ross]

There are, I would think, a good number of, those of us with a number of years sailing who just hang around and let those who do, do just that.
figure I've got 45 years of sailing under my belt, and a good number of that, in salt water somewhere. Taught my sons to sail and now working on the grandkids.
I see a regular theme abound in this forum, and that is if you dont go along with the pack, your ousted by the numbers..
Blue Water Boats is a good example, as I've read a number of responces from those posting to a newbe that speak as a god to say the only blue water boat made should have a full keel and spade rudder, because they read it somewhere.. and in the background, I'm laughing and thinking there full of crap...
What I'd like to see, And I know its wishfull thinking, is that you only responded to a question when you had practical experance in the subject.
If a person is asking about a perticular anchor for using in the south pacific, they shouldnt get a reply from someone using an anchor in the south of Florida or in a lake in Texas...... Or from a person that was told by someone that they read an artical about someone that knew a guy who crewed on a boat that the captain used this anchor on an around the world trip.......
Sometimes I just have to set back and laugh at some of the crap as advice that some put out.............

Randy, We used to tell new guys on a cross cut saw that if they were gonna ride they should pick up their feet.
If you believe that a fin keel, shallow draft boat is suitable for ocean sailing, pipe up and say so. Don't sit back with a smug grin and murmer to yourself "what a bunch of pompus know-it-alls" Step right up and let us benefit from your years of experience.

 

[Maine Sail]

Hmmm..

The Vendee Globe boats are fin keel dual spade rudders and do it at 20+ knots in the roaring forties they are built very, very lightly... I also have friends who have done circum navs on fin keelers with spade rudders.. Though of course, as you know, it "can't be done safely"

I always pose this chalenge: Please show me one production boat be it Hunter, Catalina, Bene etc. that came apart at the seams because they got in rough weather and the boat sunk due to structural issues.. It's been a while and no one has stepped forth... We see LOTS of production boats here in Maine with hailing ports of WA, CA an Alaska... I just can't figure out how they made it??

I think people get religion on what ever type (fin, full, ketch, cutter) boat they own and that's just human nature. Please do chime in and give us more real world experiences we could use more!

 

[SoSound]

Care for a "newb's" opinion?

I don't think you guys are too hard at all. No more so than the previous forum (not sailing) that I spent a lot of time on. One thing that the tone of your posts will not affect; the personality traits and learning/sporting style of the person reading (or not) your posts. Some people prefer to learn from their mistakes - others may never know that they made one...

One thing that I wouldn't mind seeing from a technical perspective though, is a few more categories for classifying posts in the shared forums. We currently have "Ask all...", "Trailer...", and "Site Talk".

I spend a reasonable amount of time browsing through posts to see what I can pick up, and it would be a little easier and more structured if I could concentrate my browsing to more specific categories. Maybe something like "Hull Maint/Repair", "AC/DC (electrical systems!)", "Iron Genny's", and last but not least "Rules of the Road and Navigation" (we already have Sail Trim (could add "and rigging") and the Head Mistress.

Otherwise - I continue to learn and learn from this site. I'm glad that it exists and I hope I never do anything "newb" enough to feel the wrath of the tribe...

Dave