And this is?

Oct 26, 2010
2,125
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
Had to do some "studying" of lightning protection for some work at a facility that destroyed chemical weapons out in Colorado. There is an NFPA standard for lightning protection that may not be exactly applicable for a sailboat but the key principles seem to apply. Simplified, they are:
1. There will be a "cone of protection" that looks kind of like a christmas tree provided by lightning protection if you can get the strike directly to the ground. It would seem that the safest place during a lightning strike on a sailboat would be in the cockpit where you are protected by the "cone of protection" rather than inside the cabin where the strike might "jump" to try to get to ground (see items 2 and 3 below).
2. Lightning will take the easiest path to ground and that current may "split" and "jump" from the primary ground conductor to wherever it needs to jump to to get to ground. During that "jump" it will create a "spark" like a spark plug and for a boat, that jump might just blow a hole in the hull if it jumps to something like a thru hull or chain plate.
3. Lightning doesn't like to make "sharp turns" along its path to ground and may just escape the grounding wire and jump to something else to get to ground. There is a minimum radius for any "ground wire turn" in design of lightning protection systems. I would hazard to guess that many of our boats with ground wires from the mast to the keel probably violate that minimum radius.

 
Apr 11, 2020
788
MacGregor 26s Scott's Landing, Grapevine TX
Like always bear hunting with an overweight friend, you only need to outrun your friend not the bear.
My masthead is crammed with stuff, the guy across from me has a freestanding mast with large open masthead that serves as a feeding platform for the local osprey. I appreciate him taking the hit for all of us to enjoy nature on his boat.
I think you left an "s" off one of your words.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,939
- - LIttle Rock
....There is an NFPA standard for lightning protection that may not be exactly applicable for a sailboat....
This topic is waaay outside of my professional wheelhouse, but seeing a lightning protection device referred to as a toilet brush caught my eye so I've read the whole thread (one never knows when an opportunity to learn something entirely new may come in handy). You reference the NFPA standard (I know what those are)...Wondering if there is an applicable ABYC standard, I decided to call a friend in Detroit who's an ABYC certified marine electrician to ask him (you can tell I don't have a lot to do this evening) and he referred me to ABYC TE-4 which came out in 2006, revised and expanded in 2019 and renamed TE-4 2019. That's a technical information piece...he's not sure whether it's ever become a standard.

Who'd ever have guessed that someone asking why there's a toilet brush at the top his mast would have started me down a whole new experience! I've learned a lot from this thread that I may never need to know, but it's been fun!


--Peggie
 
Oct 26, 2010
2,125
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
NFPA 780 has a chapter on watercraft: Chapter 10 "Protection for Watercraft" I wonder if the ABYC TE-2019 is derived from NFPA 780? Too bad they charge $50 for the technical information piece.
 
Oct 26, 2010
2,125
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
Interesting, NFPA 780 has a very detailed chapter on "Protection of Watercraft." I had not read it before and frankly didn't know it was in NFPA 780 since I was just interested in the general info and the chapter on protection of facilities that handle explosives. The chapter on watercraft is multiple pages and very very detailed with specifics on ground plates, size of conductors, connection points and what has to be connected, etc. There are specific discussions for sailboats with both metal and non-metallic masts. I was really surprised at the detail. I would imagine that the ABYC technical paper is derived from NFPA 780. There is even a graphic of the "cone of protection" for a sailboat with a mast of 50 ft above the water line.

Very interesting reading.
 
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Oct 26, 2010
2,125
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
@JamesG161 Thanks again as always! While NFPA 780 discusses "technical details" like conductor size, ground points etc. with specific requirements/guidance it doesn't break it down into layman's (or is it layperson's?) terms. These articles do that. Thanks

Interesting minor difference in the Nigel Calder's discussion and the "Understanding Lightning Protection" article at least implied. Calder seems to suggest that being inside the cabin is the safest place when lightning is threatened. The "Understanding" article suggests that you stay as far away from the "main conductor" as possible. Since an aluminum Mast and conductivity path from the masthead/lightning dissiaptor to the keel is the main condutor it would seem staying ouside of the cabin (further from the mast) might be a better choice. That is what I was always taught as well as don't hang on to the stays or metal rigging. What is your take on that?
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Curious if those standards differentiate between salt and fresh water? For example, the square foot dissipation plate at the bottom of the hull might work in salt water but would be pretty much worthless in fresh water.

Years ago when I did more sailing in Colorado and was around a lot of lightning, I had studied lightning protection methods and actually got a patent on a flexible down conductor to a discharge electrode that was kept at the water surface by floats. The last prototype before I abandoned the whole project is shown in the attached picture. Its a floating discharge electrode with four gauge wire back the mast. The four gauge wire attached to the mast passed by the side shrouds forming a spark gap to the metal shroud cables. The flexible wire and float (one on each side) kept the electrode at the water surface even when the boat was heeled while sailing. This used Dr Ewen Thomson's idea of the Siedarc electrodes which placed discharge electrode at the water surface where the strike wanted to go to in the first place. To sell something like this, I would have had to license Dr Thomsons patents. When I abandoned the idea (much better ways to earn a living LOL), I actually sold my patent to Dr Thomson but things went nowhere and a link in this thread says his patents have also expired. Its my opinion that Dr Thomsons idea of placing the discharge electrode at the water surface was the only method that would make any difference in fresh water.

The floating electrode was mostly intended for trailer boats where the mast is almost always ungrounded. Note that in the sailing to hell video, the guy said he had an ungrounded mast.

 

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JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,757
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
That is what I was always taught as well as don't hang on to the stays or metal rigging. What is your take on that?
True!

Lightning Avoidance, on Sailboats, depends on the Situation. Landlubber protection is essentially the same.

Why?

You can move your Sailboat, but tough to move your house.

Please note AVOIDANCE, not protection.

Best example, for Landlubbers, are Water Towers and the Statue of Liberty [tall metal objects]. You do not see them destroyed by Lightning.:dancing:

Simple answer for both, is Electrical Grounding.

By Grounding [water for us Sailors] your Sailboat appears to the Source of Power [Storm Clouds] like the Ground [or water] around you.

Grounding your Sailboat, reduces your chance of a direct strike.

Everyone should now focus on the Water surrounding your Sailboat, for Grounding.

List of a few Situations.

1) Salt Water versus Fresh Water. [ best Grounding is in Salt Water]
2) Sailing [happened to me and lightning hit on both sides of our boat within 30 seconds for each strike, no hit on boat :biggrin:]
3) Anchored [ best for Safety, if possible, when storm clouds approach]
4) Plugged into Marina Power [ not a good thing]

How to protect you and your crew, after reading 1-4 above.

I will respond to this, if anyone is interested.

Wishing all Good Avoidance in 2023...
Jim...
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Grounding your Sailboat, reduces your chances of a direct strike.
I dont think this is true. Grounding definitely can reduce mechanical damage from a strike which is why its a good idea. Grounding a mast may only have a minor influence on damage to electronics because you still get an enormous EM field generated. I dont think you are considering the electric field concentration that occurs at the top of the mast when you ground it.

Without using analogies, what is the theory on why grounding reduces the chances of a strike. I have never seen anyone claim this except you.
 
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JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,757
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
I have never seen anyone claim this except you.[ and Nigel Calder :facepalm:]
Sorry Walt, but I Quit responding to your posts on Lightning long ago. Re-Read the link on my post #28 above so you know Why.

Your friend...
Jim...
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,757
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
From my post # 5 on that link above...

________
You never need a consensus on a SCIENCE!
However several types of sciences involved, thus the confusion.
List in order of your ability to control them...
1) Electrical (flow of electrons)
2) Math (statistics)
3) Religion

If you combine all 3 you can reduce your chances of being a target.
In a nutshell...
1) Ground your boat and Isolate yourself
2) Buy Insurance
3) Pray it doesn't hit you

Jim...

PS: Niger Calder's page on Lightning Avoidance on Sailboats is posted there, I did not post it originally.
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,757
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Ground your boat and Isolate yourself
How to Isolate yourself and crew depends on your Sailboat Size and its Grounding to water.

One person called me when on a Sandy Fresh Water River bank and big storm starting. "We are frightened of the Lightning"

I told them their rain fly tent [out of rain] was grounded, but to sit on their Ice Coolers with no bare feet on the ground.

Best Landlubber spot is Under a Water Tower sitting on a non-metal Cooler too.:cool:

Why?
Water Tower is Super Well Grounded and the cooler ISOLATES you!:clap:

Jim...

PS: Send me a Private Message, if you need Lightning Avoidance help.
 
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walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
FYI, from that post 28, Jim wrote regarding the wire brush things
The use is to help dissipate static charge build up on your boat's mast that occurs just before a strike. Like grounding the static electricity charge when wearing a wool sweater.
What does the expert from the Practical sailor article in post 3 in this thread say (notice that this guy mentions electric fields)

The problem with this approach is that the earth can supply a charge far faster than any set of discharge points can create ions. A bit of math will show that a carefully designed static discharge wick or brush can create a current, in an electrical field of 10,000 volts per meter, of 0.5 ampere. This is equivalent to a 20,000 ohm impedance (R=E/I: R=10,000/0.5 = 20,000). The impedance of a site on hard ground is typically 5 ohms. The ratio of the ability of the earth to supply a static charge is inversely proportional to the impedance of the conductor. In this example, the ratio of impedances is 20,000 : 0.05 = 4,000:1

The earth can supply energy 4,000 times faster than the rate at which a static discharge brush can dissipate the energy! The impedance of saltwater is a great deal less, on the order of 0.1 ohms, making the theory of protection from use of static wicks even more suspect.
.

Im going with the author of the PS article.

Plugged into Marina Power [ not a good thing]
There must be some theory (or analogy) on this also that we dont get to find out what it is? I dont think being plugged into marina power has any significant influence on getting struck. Doesnt make any sense to me that this would matter.
 
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walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I have never seen anyone claim this except you.[ and Nigel Calder facepalm:]

My quote was modified to say that Nigel Calder also says that grounding a mast reduces your chance of getting struck by lightning. Everyone including Nigel Calder (and both Jim and I - we do agree on some things and I hate to argue since I love the weather blog you guys do) say that grounding the mast is a very good idea But I cant find any article or source that says you reduce your chance of getting struck. I don't think anyone really knows and suspect it doesnt matter much on the odds of getting struck. Here is a pretty good article I came across that mentions Nigel Calder.

 
Oct 19, 2017
7,973
O'Day Mariner 19 Littleton, NH
Curious if those standards differentiate between salt and fresh water? For example, the square foot dissipation plate at the bottom of the hull might work in salt water but would be pretty much worthless in fresh water.
Has anyone ever suggested grounding to an all chain anchor rode connected to the lake bottom? Fresh water is a terrible conductor, so your boat represents the best source for ground (albeit, a tiny one. Even worse.) in the middle of an insulator. But, if ground can be conducted to the lake bottom through the anchor and forestay conductor, wouldn't that be a pretty darn good way of keeping the grounded conductor far away from both the cockpit and the interior of the boat?

-Will
 
May 17, 2004
5,631
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Has anyone ever suggested grounding to an all chain anchor rode connected to the lake bottom? Fresh water is a terrible conductor, so your boat represents the best source for ground (albeit, a tiny one. Even worse.) in the middle of an insulator. But, if ground can be conducted to the lake bottom through the anchor and forestay conductor, wouldn't that be a pretty darn good way of keeping the grounded conductor far away from both the cockpit and the interior of the boat?

-Will
There was a similar discussion years ago here - Lightning + Mast = ????

Chain isn’t necessarily a cure-all either, as it’s hard to get a good enough connection to the chain and across chain links to carry the enormous current a strike provides.