Anchor Weight Question

Malcolm Young · Sep 22, 2007

A 33kg Rocna??

John,What size of boat do you have? I checked your information and there was none. 33 kg is 72.6 lbs

Craig Smith · Sep 22, 2007

Rocna knock offs

More than just minor variations. You get what you pay for.http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/manson-supreme-anchor.php

newly anonymous · Sep 23, 2007

malcom,

She's a bit huge; check out the avatar: That's a Catalina 42 anchored to starboard, and a Catalina 34 to port, all hanging off my hook in Half Moon Bay. The boat in the middle with all the freeboard, s/v Bashful, is a 46' sloop displacing 15 tons. And she likes to charge the anchor in a stiff breeze. We anchor out a lot, and I subscribe to Steve Daschel's dictum: "When the fellows in your marina start laughing at the size of your anchor, it's almost big enough."

Stu Jackson · Sep 23, 2007

john f, your own great C36 SF Bay area group

did a group purchase of Rocnas earlier this year. See if Ken Murray is still around to help.

Malcolm Young · Sep 23, 2007

Thanks for the information John

Your avatar says it all. I respect your decision to go with a 33 kg anchor (Rocna) with your boat. You might be able to go with a size smaller for your boat according to the tables, however you will sleep better with the 33kg Rocna. Hope you don't ever have to pull it and the attached depth of chain up by hand...By the way, I am convinced that the Rocna tables are conservative - if you go by the Rocna table you will have more holding power than following the tables that many other manufacturers use. I like companies that take that approach. I expect that it is typical of their general approach to the design and manufacture.

Old Salt · Sep 23, 2007

Speaking of Knock offs - the Rocna is a knockoff

Of the SPADE. The ORIGINAL concave anchor.Also, thats BS about about the Manson Supreme. Its as good any anchor out there . I know 3 people with them and they said its as good, but 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of the overpriced and hard to get Rocna.I don't know about you all but I am getting VERY tired of Craig pushing his product (for profit) on this board .I want to ask how much is Craig Smith paying Sailboatowners.com for all this biased, unchalenged and FREE advertising. I don't see Alain Pourad (original inventor of the SPADE) hawking his wares on hereYou're pushing it Craigy-boy. Lighten up and back off - In fact you should DELETE your last post - we're sick of your shamless hawking of your product.If this is becoming a site to be an adverstising schill for manufacturers then I think it will lose me and many other subscribers. I know I'll nver come back if thats what Phil wants this site to become, then thats too bad .

Craig Smith · Sep 23, 2007

Malcolm

Our sizing chart figures are calculated with 50 knots wind in mind - only moderate holding, and allowing for surge. As you say, conservative, and the old lore to "always go one size up" need not be applied.Although, John, you might not still be large enough to satisfy Dashew

- follow the linkhttp://www.setsail.com/s_logs/dashew/dashew420.html

Maine Sail · Sep 23, 2007

Please...!!!

Old Salt,Quote "The Rocna is a knock off of the SPADE. The ORIGINAL concave anchor."Really that's new info to me! I own two Spades a Manson Supreme and a Rocna and I can tell you without a doubt that the Rocna is the best performer with the Manson Supreme just a tad behind but the Spades do not even come close to the setting and re-setting performance of the Rocna or the Manson. So if the Rocna is a knock-off how does it perform SO MUCH better? The Rocna is also a far better built anchor than the Manson is and that is why there is a clear price difference. As a person who drives about 80k per year I can assure you that there are plenty of tire knock-offs that fit your definition. If I follow your logic and buy a set of Kelly tires, with virtually the same tread pattern to the Michelin's, they should be the same right? Hmm how come I can't seem to get past 40k on any of the knock-offs I have ever bought, even with proper rotation, alignment and air pressure yet I can regularly turn 70k out of a set of Michelin's with even tread wear and no cupping. The treads look the same so the must perform the same??? No??Quote: "Also, thats BS about about the Manson Supreme. Its as good any anchor out there . I know 3 people with them and they said its as good, but 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of the overpriced and hard to get Rocna."Again, as perhaps the only person out there that actually owns both a Manson Supreme and a Rocna I can assure you that the Rocna is a far better built anchor! Is it worth 1/3 more than a Manson? I don't know but for me I look at an anchor as cheap insurance and I want the best possible anchor I can buy to rely on. The Manson proved the concept for me, and was the best performing anchor I had eve owned then I bought a Rocna! While they both perform similarly I do believe that for length of service I'd spend the money on the better built anchor. Great you know three people who don't own a Rocna, never used a Rocna, and bought the cheaper knock-off yet they have told you it's the same so it must be true? How about real data like from an un-biased source like me. How can I be un-biased? I own both and have no stake in either company. Trust me I'm as much for finding a good value when I can but the Rocna is still a much better built product. How can someone who has never used, touched or felt a Rocna, Spade, Manson, CQR, Fortress, Delta, Bruce etc. comment on them? I have actually owned and used all of the above anchors in my search for the ultimate anchor. You will not find me commenting on the Hydrobubble or Sarca unless it's to reference a particular test and the results. How can three people who have never owned a Rocna make up your sample size of "as good as any anchor out there"?Quote: I don't know about you all but I am getting VERY tired of Craig pushing his product (for profit) on this board .I don't know about you but I have yet to see Craig start a thread on any board about his anchor where he blatantly try's to sell it pro-actively! Craig only responds to discussions where there has been misinformation spread about his product and he tries to correct the misleading info and educate folks about anchoring. Many of his posts are about rodes, kellets, types of anchoring techniques etc. not just about the Rocna.Quote: "I want to ask how much is Craig Smith paying Sailboatowners.com for all this biased, unchalenged and FREE advertising. I don't see Alain Pourad (original inventor of the SPADE) hawking his wares on here."Unchallenged? Biased? Craig is responding to questions, slanderous insults and misinformation to protect the good name of his product. He also references independent tests that were actually BIASED against the Rocna! How would you respond if we decided to have a thread that turned towards Old Salt bashing? Would you defend yourself? What if you made a marine product and folks all of a sudden started bashing it without merit or fact or even first hand experience with the it! Would you just sit back and watch your product get lambasted by folks who had never even seen one up close or let alone used it? I personally don't think Craig is pro-actively selling but more responding with facts instead of unsupported rumors. Trust me Alain would be on here personally insulting folks, as he was famous for, but alas he has sold Spade and thus has no interest in defending a product he no-longer owns or sells.Quote: "You're pushing it Craigy-boy. Lighten up and back off - In fact you should DELETE your last post - we're sick of your shamless hawking of your product."Ummm once again Craigs last post was in defense of his product when a member stated that the Manson Supreme is basically the same product for a lot less $$$ Craig was merely trying to point out the differences and defend his producct not pro-actively hawk it.Quote: "If this is becoming a site to be an adverstising schill for manufacturers then I think it will lose me and many other subscribers. I know I'll nver come back if thats what Phil wants this site to become, then thats too bad ."Get over yourself Old Salt! If you don't like a thread don't read it just like TV you can change the channel or never read any post by Craig Smith or Peggie Hall or any of the others who defend their products even if they are just books..By the way Craig's most recent post links to a site owned and operated by a lifelong cruiser, NOT by Rocna, who goes against the wisdom of what Rocna recommends. Rocna says don't go up one size as we've built in the safety factor for you yet The Dashew's tout going up one size even when they are using a Rocna!

Old Salt · Sep 24, 2007

Mainsail Read it again

"The Rocna is a knock off of the SPADE. The ORIGINAL concave anchor"The SPADE Anchor has been around WAY before the Rocna OR the Manson Supreme. Get your FACTS straight. The folks on "Morning Cloud" who have 100,000 miles of offshore sailing and 16 years of sailing in the high latitudes have said "We think this anchor (SPADE) is the next best thing to sliced bread!"http://morganscloud.com/stuff/stanchoring.htmPlus, don't try and Spin this. I never said the Ronca was a bad anchor You said "How can someone who has never used, touched or felt a Rocna, Spade, Manson, CQR, Fortress, Delta, Bruce etc. comment on them? " What kind of 'downeast' BS statement is that? How do you know what I have owned and used? I have owned and used on my boat and others all the anchors (and MORE) above except the (interestingly enough) Bruce. PS. Still don't him or anyone on here selling his stuff unless all the other vendors were rebutting . Its not a fair debate if only he is on here selling his stuff

Old Salt · Sep 24, 2007

Rocna Graph has been MODIFIED ! *pop

How unbelieveably DECEPTIVE of Craig Smith and Rocna !I bet no one on here knew that the graph that Craig Smith and Rocna posted on here has been MODIFIED from the original Sail Magazine published. Sure there is probably some fine print somewhere but I bet no one knew that.In seems that Craig Smith and Rocna modified the Chart and scaled the original findings in proportion to anchor weight to generate their chart.Any way you spin it. I don't care if the underlying Data is what Rocna used (they used a "weighting factor) That chart that Craig Smith posted is not the exact same chart that you would have seen in the Sail Magazine Article. I will quote someone much more knowledgable about anchoring than I dare say, anyone on here."I still don’t think it is a good idea for manufacturers to unilaterally change the result of independent tests. The Rocna is a great anchor and I don’t think that it needs this kind of manipulation of the data to sell; in fact I think it may even be detrimental in the long run.I would also question the implied assertion that holding power to weight is the only valid criterion for anchor evaluation. If this were so, aluminum anchors like those from SPADE and Fortress would be clear winners." My sentiments EXACTLY ! We don't need biased and deceptive manufactures on Sailboatowners bulletin board.

newly anonymous · Sep 24, 2007

apologies to Steve?

I hope I wasn't misquoting Dashew there, although I'm certain I got the gist right even though my version was worded differently than the quote in Craig's link. I visited a yacht club down in Marina Del Rey in 1999, and was assigned a berth two slips over from a Deerfoot 72. After a couple of days I knocked on the hull and asked the captain whether this was Steve Dashew's boat. The gentleman answered no, that this was Steve Dashew's father's boat, and gave me a tour. When we got to the anchor, he related Steve's heavy-metal philosophy in pretty much the same words that I related in my previous post, if memory serves.If I had my druthers, I'd just as soon go with the Rocna 25kg model, but their sizing recommendations for a 46' boat advise the 25 only up to 12 tons, which puts me three tons over. On the other hand, the 25 would provide significantly greater holding power than the OEM Delta that came with the boat. More to the point, the 25 wouldn't stress my windlass the way the 33 might.Conversely, one of the reasons I tend to prefer an oversize anchor is that I spend enough time anchoring out that I no longer wake up every time the wind gusts or the tide shifts. A few years back we had another couple aboard who spent a sleepless night in the guest cabin when a gale moved through the anchorage. When they described the storm to us the next morning, my wife and I realized we'd both slept through it without waking up.That's when you need a big hook.

Maine Sail · Sep 24, 2007

If your basis..

Old Salt,If your basis of knock off is perhaps one similar design criteria out of the perhaps 45 that go into an anchor then I guess it's a knock off. By the way the Spade was not the first concave design but I figure you already knew that! Craig and Rocna have never represented that chart in any forum I've seen as the actual chart from Sail magazine. "The testing was written up in SAIL magazine (USA) and Yachting Monthly (UK) and the graph below is BASED upon SAIL's own."I don't know why they did that either because they do not need to. The performance of the anchor and the current data in it's original form speaks for it's self.Hell even I used to say the Spade (steel only) was the best anchor I had ever used, like Dashew, but that was before I had used a Manson or a Rocna. I'm sure the Rocna will not be my last anchor either as I am always on the lookout for good insurance. Quote: "You said "How can someone who has never used, touched or felt a Rocna, Spade, Manson, CQR, Fortress, Delta, Bruce etc. comment on them?" What kind of 'downeast' BS statement is that?"Perhaps I was not clear as I referenced your comment about your three friends who owned Manson's who made the comment that "it is as good as any anchor out there". I was merely expressing my concern that people who make blanket statements without ever laying eyes on the competitive product to be ill informed information. I was not directly referencing you or what anchors you have used just that you were taking second hand information as fact. Because I actually own both the Manson and the Rocna I can tell you with 100% certainty that the Manson is not as good as a Rocna in terms of construction, attention to detail or robustness". So as far as the Manson being as good as any anchor out there they obviously have not done a side by side comparison that's all. It was not a "Down East" BS personal attack on you but rather an attack on the spreading of information without the basis for it.Quote: "My sentiments EXACTLY ! We don't need biased and deceptive manufactures on Sailboatowners bulletin board."Then we also don't need people stating information as fact when and attacking a manufacturers product without ever using it. Craig's information may be biased but no more than the bias Sail magazine used to try and "coax" results out of the WM Performance 20, CQR and the Claw. They did not give preferential treatment to any of the other anchors in the test! Deceptive is the wrong word all together. Rocna used the actual data from the Sail tests but sorted it by anchor weight that's all. It's simple really just plug the raw data into an Excel spread sheet and select your sort criteria! The data is still the same you have just sorted it differently! Just because Sail did not do this, perhaps to keep advertisers like Lewmar happy, I would say Sail could have been just as "deceptive" by your own definition and by their omission of weight sorting. I guess if you call that deceptive then you need to stop buying most all products because ALL manufacturers sort data to paint them selves in a better light!

Craig Smith · Sep 24, 2007

Easy

folk, you're not going to take the thread anywhere positive arguing with someone without a registered account who knows such a great deal about Manson's and Poiraud's opinions.John: I was kidding - you're quite right concerning Dashew's quote, he has said it many times, I was merely commenting that he goes way to the extreme, witness that page on his site. We recommended a 70Kg for his boat, and he insisted on the 115Kg that he has... and he says even now that if he was doing it over he'd go "one size larger again". Kind of crazy, but in a good way

Obviously Dashew's site is the best source of info on his ideas but those looking for a third party report and concise tour of his current boat would be pressed to do better than this PassageMaker article:http://www.rocna.com/press/press_0511_passagemaker_dashew.pdf

r.w.landau · Sep 24, 2007

Another boater, get some guts and use a name!

I agree but atleast show some self respect.r.w.landau

Ross · Sep 24, 2007

I have a great deal of trouble with people who

hide behind anonymity. I posted this on the bow roll thread but it is just as applicable here. I was a farmer long before I was a sailor This is what I know about plows. If you want a plow to run deep you must set the beam so that the point is angled into the ground. If you want it to run not so deep you change the angle of pull. It is time to do the math. a 5:1 scope is about 11 degrees from the horizontal 8:1 is about 7 degrees and 10:1 is about 5.7 degrees. If the angle that the anchor makes with the beam is less than the angle of pull the plow comes out of the ground. If a plow anchor won't hold at a 5:1 scope don't condemn it until you have determined that it won't hold at any scope. If you must anchor in areas that demand a 5:1 scope then choose an anchor that works at that scope.

John Howitt · Sep 24, 2007

anchors away

A 10Lb kellet will improve the performance of any anchor and it is cheap. But then you couln't say that " I spent 900.00 dollars on my anchor"

Craig Smith · Sep 24, 2007

Morgan's Cloud

Everything from John Harries on anchors that you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask:http://morganscloud.com/aacblog/labels/Anchoring.html(The unreferenced quote from Salt above comes from John also).On kellets:http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/kellets.php

Rick D · Sep 24, 2007

I Think You Guys Want It Both Ways...

Most of the time, there are posts griping that there isn't a manufacturer's rep available to post when there is a question (since most have a policy against it), and then when someone has the guts to step in it and post, they get kicked around unmercifully, thereby just demonstrating why other commercial vendors don't. You are smart enough to have your own opinions for and against. Post them and let it be. Good grief, you expect the guy not to be an advocate for his own product? It wouldn't be worth owning if he were not, huh? Rick D.

Craig Smith · Sep 24, 2007

Thanks Rick

but there's no need to speak against the community - it isn't a member who's doing the "kicking", if you see what I mean

Anchor Weight Question

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

another boater , not associated with any anchor

.

.

.

.

.

.