An intro and a question

[dsmoll]

Hello everyone! I’ve been a long time fly on the wall for all the questions I’ve had pertaining to sailing, design, and how-tos. I finally thought it was time to join the community. My girlfriend, Kate, and I have a Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 ketch in pretty nice shape. We’ve been spending quite a bit of time fixing this boat up, including replacing the original wooden box masts (the main broke in half the day I picked the boat up in March) with aluminum spars.
I had a quick question about sail attachment points aloft...I noticed in the original brochure, and from photos of other H28s that there is a “fractional” sail attachment below the masthead but then also attachments at the masthead. Is there a reason to use on over the other? We don’t have a bowsprit so this isn’t a cutter-like design, there just seem to be two options for raising the sail.

I did not include this fractional sheave/pulley on the new mast as it didn’t make sense at the time, but was wondering if anyone knew anything about this?

thanks,
Dakota

 

[jssailem]

Glad you decided to join us Dakota. Welcome and congrats, I think< on your boat. No boat owner wants to pick up their new boat and have their mast fail. I hope this was more expected than a surprise.

Looking at boat data on your Bermuda 30, it is reported to be a "masthead" rigged ketch.

Do these images look about right?

The upper image gives us some indications as to the original sail plan. It shows foresails, those sails that are attached to the forestay, coming in different sizes and hoisted to the top of the mast where the forestay is secured. You should have a "JIB HALYARD" that is used to hoist your foresail.

1. It would run through a sheave at the mast head and down the inside of the mast to an exit box about 8-10 feet above the base so that you can reach up and draw the halyard down to tie off on the mast.
2. Or you can attach a block to the mast head and run your halyard down the outside of the mast. This is really old school and has the draw back of the halyard banging on the mast during a windy night. Wood spars make less noise. Aluminum spars sound like a clanging bell.

I am a bit confused why you are referencing the H28 when you have a Bermuda 30.

 

[dsmoll]

Thanks for the reply, jssailem. Yes those are the designs for our boat. I have it rigged to the masthead through the sheaves that came with the mast. They are external halyards (and quite noisy in a blow, we keep them pulled out with a bungee).

this is sorta what I’m talking about. This is an H28 with the jib attached lower than the masthead. Our original wooden masts had a tang in this same spot but I didn’t include it in the new masts, I just ran them to the tippy top. It’s been working just fine...just wondering why there would be a difference or if I should add a tang just for the jib?

we usually run a very large Genoa on the Bermuda, as it is pretty underpowered and the summer winds are quite light in the PNW.

 

[dlochner]

Some offshore sailors add a removable inner forestay to the rig. This allows a smaller headsail to be raised as needed when storm conditions arise. When it is not necessary, the inner forestay is disconnected and stored along side of the mast.

The smaller headsail closer to the mast moves the center of effort further aft making it easier to balance the sails. The inner forestay would only be used when the mainsail is deeply reefed or the storm trysail is hoisted. When the sails are balanced the motion of the boat is more comfortable and there is less stress on the crew and the boat.

The inner forestay needs to be properly engineered. There is a lot of force on the forestay and it needs to be tied to hull to transmit those forces to the hull. A simple pad eye and backing plate will leave you with a hole on the foredeck in storm conditions. Not a desirable outcome.

 

[dsmoll]

Here is an original brochure of the Bermuda with the jib attached lower to the tang I’m talking about. (This is a photo not a drawing as you might expect ha ha)

 

[dsmoll]

Dlochner, are you talking about a baby stay? We could definitely use one! But these this design looks different than most baby stays I’ve seen on other boats

 

[dlochner]

Thanks for the reply, jssailem. Yes those are the designs for our boat. I have it rigged to the masthead through the sheaves that came with the mast. They are external halyards (and quite noisy in a blow, we keep them pulled out with a bungee).

View attachment 188259

this is sorta what I’m talking about. This is an H28 with the jib attached lower than the masthead. Our original wooden masts had a tang in this same spot but I didn’t include it in the new masts, I just ran them to the tippy top. It’s been working just fine...just wondering why there would be a difference or if I should add a tang just for the jib?

we usually run a very large Genoa on the Bermuda, as it is pretty underpowered and the summer winds are quite light in the PNW.

It is a little difficult to clearly discern, however, the Herreschoff 28 looks to be a fractional rig, not a masthead. The extra lines may be spinnaker halyards.

 

[dlochner]

Dlochner, are you talking about a baby stay? We could definitely use one! But these this design looks different than most baby stays I’ve seen on other boats

No, a baby stay is different. It is used to keep the mast from pumping and to induce bend in the mast.

In the poster, it might be a solant rig. This is a twin headstay and allows for flying 2 headsails in down wind conditions. When one headsail is used it is usually flown on the inner forestay because it can't be tacked on the outer forestay.

 

[justsomeguy]

referencing the H28

Herreshoff 28

 

[jssailem]

What @dlochner is saying above is spot on about rigging a boat. Your Bermuda 30 was designed with coastal and beyond sailing in mind.

I resolved my question about the H28 on the sail...

Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 is a 29′ 7″ monohull sailboat designed by L. Francis Herreshoff and built by Cheoy Lee Shipyard between 1962 and 1967.​

Your so correct about the winds in the Pacific NW. They can be like light scampering puffs or violent howling gales. I see you are in Port Hadlock. I have cruised by your marina many times using the cut to arrive in Port Townsend. I'll give you a shout next time I'm in the area.

One of the challenges with a "staysail" forestay is the location it attaches to the mast and the deck. As stated the sails are often used when winds are blowing and you are reducing sail to have a better managed sail plan aloft. The mast becomes vulnerable to the mid spar stresses/loadings of the sail. It is the reason "Baby stays" were designed. They address these mid length stresses on the mast by balancing the forces at the mid mast level. Just conjecture, but if your old mast did not have supporting baby stays, then that might have been a contributing factor to the failure.

A consideration of the light winds is to use a light sail. An Asymmetrical is a reasonable option of your boat. Besides the pretty nature of the sail, it can proved a lot of cloth to capture the wind and move your boat along.

I added one this year. Flying in a seven knot breeze, on Possession Sound near Hat Island (Gedney Island if you're looking on the charts).

 

[DArcy]

This is a very old design which may be a way to have a fractional rigged jib without the need for running backstays or jumper stays. If the original mast had a jib halyard at (just under) both the inner and outer stays it could have been intended as a solent rig. These days, a solent is considered to be an inner stay, close behind, and parallel to, the forestay. The idea of a solent is to have more versatility in sail plan. Use the solent (smaller inner) jib for heavy weather or upwind sailing and set the outer jib or genoa for light air reaching and running. With modern roller furling this can be a great, versatile setup.
The rig would, of course, need to be designed to accommodate the loads and attachment of the inner stay. If you are happy with the performance of your rig without the inner stay then no need for the added complications.
You can get similar results to a solent by using a smaller (110% ish jib) and a code zero on a furler set just forward of the forestay. This may require a small bow sprit, fixed or removable.

 

[jssailem]

the Herreschoff 28 looks to be a fractional rig, not a masthead.

Sail Boat Data calls the Bermuda 30 a Mast head rigged ketch.

This data from sail boat guide. supports that claim,
Rig and Sails
TypeKetchReported Sail Area377′²Total Sail Area 300′²
Mainsail
Sail Area175′²P27′ 0″E12′ 11″Mast Height?
Foresail
Sail Area125′²I29′ 11″J8′ 3″Forestay Length31′ 1″

Based on the I and P reported lengths.

 

[dsmoll]

What @dlochner is saying above is spot on about rigging a boat. Your Bermuda 30 was designed with coastal and beyond sailing in mind.

I resolved my question about the H28 on the sail...

Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 is a 29′ 7″ monohull sailboat designed by L. Francis Herreshoff and built by Cheoy Lee Shipyard between 1962 and 1967.​

Your so correct about the winds in the Pacific NW. They can be like light scampering puffs or violent howling gales. I see you are in Port Hadlock. I have cruised by your marina many times using the cut to arrive in Port Townsend. I'll give you a shout next time I'm in the area.

One of the challenges with a "staysail" forestay is the location it attaches to the mast and the deck. As stated the sails are often used when winds are blowing and you are reducing sail to have a better managed sail plan aloft. The mast becomes vulnerable to the mid spar stresses/loadings of the sail. It is the reason "Baby stays" were designed. They address these mid length stresses on the mast by balancing the forces at the mid mast level. Just conjecture, but if your old mast did not have supporting baby stays, then that might have been a contributing factor to the failure.

A consideration of the light winds is to use a light sail. An Asymmetrical is a reasonable option of your boat. Besides the pretty nature of the sail, it can proved a lot of cloth to capture the wind and move your boat along.

I added one this year. Flying in a seven knot breeze, on Possession Sound near Hat Island (Gedney Island if you're looking on the charts).

View attachment 188261

hey that’s great! Please do! We have a drifter sail that we use for light winds but I’d probably be happier with an actual asymmetrical.

 

[jon hansen]

 

[dsmoll]

This is all great info! Thanks guys. I hadn’t thought of a Solent stay. We have an older furler that requires a wire luff sail, which I haven’t rigged up or even looked into making work for our boat. Maybe that would work well as a Solent stayed sail? The idea of running twin headsails is pretty appealing...we decided on the ketch rig for versatility after all!

 

[dsmoll]

View attachment 188262

even in this photo I can just barely see the stay a little ways down from masthead. Looks unused on this boat.

 

[dsmoll]

By the way our masts are 30’ and 24’. I think the original H28 had a main mast height of 36’?

 

[jssailem]

By the way our masts are 30

I am suspecting that the 30' reports the main mast height. That would be consistent with a main mast "I" height measurement reported for your jib = I 29′

Even though listed your jib "I" length may be altered to address certain desired sail characteristic.

 

[Hunter216]

View attachment 188262

Not trying to this but as I have a goal to try to learn something each day I saw this as an opportunity

In the photo there are several “stays” leading off aft of the main masthead.

One appears to support the top of the mizzenmast mast so that makes sense to me (I think ) I think one of the others I see is perhaps a topping lift.

To my eye there are two more:

Are these both backstays for the main? If so would you have to drop the mizzenmast sail so it’s boom wouldn’t contact them during a downwind course?

 

[jon hansen]

please share lots and lots of photos in the future. we love oogaling pretty vessels