semi custom vs production boat prices
The price difference is simply labor costs with a bit of NAME premium added to the tab.
The price difference is simply labor costs with a bit of NAME premium added to the tab.
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Is a cheap seaworthy boat possible???
I am talking about a well built simple boat suitable for crossing oceans. Forget the woodwork and all the cosmetics. But a really solid boat that you could take anywhere. Plenty of water ,fuel and storage. A solid engine and rigging. Basic plumbing and a cooking.... More like a workboat than a pleasure palace. Forget the liner, let us see the backing plates and wiring so that they are easy to check and fix. By the way if I had a million dollars to sail around the world I'd spend $200,000 for the boat $100,000 on other stuff and keep the rest to have fun on the way. In Tahiti I'd check into a great resort hotel and enjoy. When in New Zealand I'd go skiing. In South Africa I'd go on safari as far as it was fun and interesting. Maybe all the way to Eygyt!!!! Mountain climbing in the Andes. Eating well all of the time. And I'd never ever have bottom paint on my hands again...
I am talking about a well built simple boat suitable for crossing oceans. Forget the woodwork and all the cosmetics. But a really solid boat that you could take anywhere. Plenty of water ,fuel and storage. A solid engine and rigging. Basic plumbing and a cooking.... More like a workboat than a pleasure palace. Forget the liner, let us see the backing plates and wiring so that they are easy to check and fix. By the way if I had a million dollars to sail around the world I'd spend $200,000 for the boat $100,000 on other stuff and keep the rest to have fun on the way. In Tahiti I'd check into a great resort hotel and enjoy. When in New Zealand I'd go skiing. In South Africa I'd go on safari as far as it was fun and interesting. Maybe all the way to Eygyt!!!! Mountain climbing in the Andes. Eating well all of the time. And I'd never ever have bottom paint on my hands again...
Do You Get what you pay for
I bought a Catalina 36 MKII hull Number 2158 last year in the spring. This was my first non custom boat. After spending the summer sailing the Gulf Islands, a friend and I decided to sail the boat back to Long Beach, CA. We left Vancouver BC at the beginning of October 2003. Nobody could have prepared us for the winds and the size of the waves of the Northern Pacific. Yet, the boat fared very well. I cannot image that a more expensive boat could have done any better. We felt very safe and secure in the Catalina. And that what it is all about.
I bought a Catalina 36 MKII hull Number 2158 last year in the spring. This was my first non custom boat. After spending the summer sailing the Gulf Islands, a friend and I decided to sail the boat back to Long Beach, CA. We left Vancouver BC at the beginning of October 2003. Nobody could have prepared us for the winds and the size of the waves of the Northern Pacific. Yet, the boat fared very well. I cannot image that a more expensive boat could have done any better. We felt very safe and secure in the Catalina. And that what it is all about.
The Ocean Tells the Tale
After reading all of the comments posted thus far, I only have one thing to comment on ... the ocean tells the tale. We are fortunate enough to own a Swan 38, even if she IS more than 20 years old. However, there is no comparison to the way a Swan handles the blue water, versus the way a less-expensive production boat handles the blue water ... if you are even willing to take one offshore. A Swan is exactly that ... like a swan gliding through the water. Having raced offshore in very ugly weather, I would not have traded my boat for any other boat (unless it would be a larger Swan
The hull is so well-built and insulated that when you are slicing and flying off 16-20 foot waves, it is still relatively quiet and calm down below (not to mention how gorgeous the teak is, too Try THAT on a $20,000 boat !
After reading all of the comments posted thus far, I only have one thing to comment on ... the ocean tells the tale. We are fortunate enough to own a Swan 38, even if she IS more than 20 years old. However, there is no comparison to the way a Swan handles the blue water, versus the way a less-expensive production boat handles the blue water ... if you are even willing to take one offshore. A Swan is exactly that ... like a swan gliding through the water. Having raced offshore in very ugly weather, I would not have traded my boat for any other boat (unless it would be a larger Swan
The hull is so well-built and insulated that when you are slicing and flying off 16-20 foot waves, it is still relatively quiet and calm down below (not to mention how gorgeous the teak is, too Try THAT on a $20,000 boat !To you $750K boat owners:
if you are not giving $5,000 a year to the local parks department for the youth sailing classes, you are not going to get to Heaven. Scott
if you are not giving $5,000 a year to the local parks department for the youth sailing classes, you are not going to get to Heaven. Scott
Quality
The answer is simple; quality. To place the Hunter in the same category as the Swan is indicative of the lack of knowledge of what make a good boat. These lesser cost models give you just what you pay for. A toy to sit around he dock and talk "yachtie," go for the weekly club race (no big danger here as you ae out and in before the ice can melt. Give me a break!
The answer is simple; quality. To place the Hunter in the same category as the Swan is indicative of the lack of knowledge of what make a good boat. These lesser cost models give you just what you pay for. A toy to sit around he dock and talk "yachtie," go for the weekly club race (no big danger here as you ae out and in before the ice can melt. Give me a break!
If boats are like cars, then...
How would a Rolls Royce compare to a Hundai? The comparison of a Swan to a Beneteau or Catalina or Hunter is like comparing a Mercedes S-class to a Chevy Impala or a Ford Taurus or a Toyota Camry. Perhaps all those cars will all get you where you're going, but which one will last the longest, retain most of its original value, and look best in the driveway? I'd guess the MB, just as I would the Swan. Don't get me wrong, I like my Hunter, but the Swan would be my preference, if only I could afford it. ;^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
How would a Rolls Royce compare to a Hundai? The comparison of a Swan to a Beneteau or Catalina or Hunter is like comparing a Mercedes S-class to a Chevy Impala or a Ford Taurus or a Toyota Camry. Perhaps all those cars will all get you where you're going, but which one will last the longest, retain most of its original value, and look best in the driveway? I'd guess the MB, just as I would the Swan. Don't get me wrong, I like my Hunter, but the Swan would be my preference, if only I could afford it. ;^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Ego is worth money
Price is directly proportional to builder ego and what the market will bear. Blue sky is expensive.
Price is directly proportional to builder ego and what the market will bear. Blue sky is expensive.
We're all fortunate
Having read some of the comments leads one to believe that rationalization is generally the order of the day. If you have an expensive boat or an inexpensive boat you must justify it to yourself,and maybe your significant other, just so you can live with your choice. So what the hey, life is too short and foul winds don't last forever. Enjoy yours and dream of the next while complimenting the owners of both.
Having read some of the comments leads one to believe that rationalization is generally the order of the day. If you have an expensive boat or an inexpensive boat you must justify it to yourself,and maybe your significant other, just so you can live with your choice. So what the hey, life is too short and foul winds don't last forever. Enjoy yours and dream of the next while complimenting the owners of both.
Does sailing experience count?
Friends of ours have sailed from the west coast all over the South Pacific several times. He also delivers and repairs sailboats as a profession. They sail a Westsail 32 (certainly not a very new boat). My point is that the Swan owner is probably very experienced to be able to sail such a boat. So are our friends. So, if you have the experience, sail what you can afford and what you're comfortable with. Just don't stay home and, do appreciate the skills of everyone who is blue water cruising or racing regardless of the boat they're in. If we don't have the experience then we should wait until we gain it. Until then, we can dream and plan and sail what we can afford.
Friends of ours have sailed from the west coast all over the South Pacific several times. He also delivers and repairs sailboats as a profession. They sail a Westsail 32 (certainly not a very new boat). My point is that the Swan owner is probably very experienced to be able to sail such a boat. So are our friends. So, if you have the experience, sail what you can afford and what you're comfortable with. Just don't stay home and, do appreciate the skills of everyone who is blue water cruising or racing regardless of the boat they're in. If we don't have the experience then we should wait until we gain it. Until then, we can dream and plan and sail what we can afford.
Swans
I have a Hunter 23 which I do enjoy in the area that I sail it. I have also taken a 50' Beneteau out in the Carribean. An area for easy sailing. I would like to buy a larger boat. Maybe not as big as the 50'er. 40 would do. I visit shows and marinas to compare. Well, I saw an older 38'Swan and just started drooling. Who ever said it is exactly right. One gets whghat they pay for. But also again I can't afford a Swan so I sail what I can to get the pleasures at least of being out on the waters. Maybe tomorrow I will win the lottery or someone will invite me to come sailing with them on their Swan. I don't care if it is new or old. I have seen some well kept older boats and some junky newer onss. Best to all. Maybe the sailors will visit my site at www.windnwave.com and help me to make that next step.
I have a Hunter 23 which I do enjoy in the area that I sail it. I have also taken a 50' Beneteau out in the Carribean. An area for easy sailing. I would like to buy a larger boat. Maybe not as big as the 50'er. 40 would do. I visit shows and marinas to compare. Well, I saw an older 38'Swan and just started drooling. Who ever said it is exactly right. One gets whghat they pay for. But also again I can't afford a Swan so I sail what I can to get the pleasures at least of being out on the waters. Maybe tomorrow I will win the lottery or someone will invite me to come sailing with them on their Swan. I don't care if it is new or old. I have seen some well kept older boats and some junky newer onss. Best to all. Maybe the sailors will visit my site at www.windnwave.com and help me to make that next step.
"All is relative." -- A. Einstein
Cool subject. And the responses have been very enlightening. I have wondered about the same thing myself. I think what it comes down to is "How much should I spend on a boat?" And that comes down to what you are going to use it for, and to some degree, how much disposable income you have. Most people I know that own expensive big boats can afford them. If they don't use them for a while because other things demand their time, they are not concerned. I, on the other hand, would feel guilty if I owned a 300,000 dollar boat and it just sat there. So I have an inexpensive boat and go crew with my friends in more expensive larger boats. The real question is, "how much fun are you having?" Sometimes I see dinghy sailers that are having more fun than anyone! All things are relative. I thought a Lightening was a "big" boat when I was a kid.
Cool subject. And the responses have been very enlightening. I have wondered about the same thing myself. I think what it comes down to is "How much should I spend on a boat?" And that comes down to what you are going to use it for, and to some degree, how much disposable income you have. Most people I know that own expensive big boats can afford them. If they don't use them for a while because other things demand their time, they are not concerned. I, on the other hand, would feel guilty if I owned a 300,000 dollar boat and it just sat there. So I have an inexpensive boat and go crew with my friends in more expensive larger boats. The real question is, "how much fun are you having?" Sometimes I see dinghy sailers that are having more fun than anyone! All things are relative. I thought a Lightening was a "big" boat when I was a kid.
What is a boat worth?
I have an old Cal 34 that gets me where I want to go. And I suppose if I had the money i would buy a new boat; a J boat or Bavaria or one of the boats I have sailed on. But a Swan or Hinkley or boat of that reputation ....no way! The prices asked for "those" kinds of boats are asked of people who don't know how to spend their money wisely.
I have an old Cal 34 that gets me where I want to go. And I suppose if I had the money i would buy a new boat; a J boat or Bavaria or one of the boats I have sailed on. But a Swan or Hinkley or boat of that reputation ....no way! The prices asked for "those" kinds of boats are asked of people who don't know how to spend their money wisely.
Not worth the difference
Is a BMW worth twice the cost of a Chevy ? Is a Home in boston worth 4 times a home in florida ? The simple answer is no way, but worth is in the mind of the buyer.
Is a BMW worth twice the cost of a Chevy ? Is a Home in boston worth 4 times a home in florida ? The simple answer is no way, but worth is in the mind of the buyer.
A proper yacht
I believe that hull construction, oversized equiptment, some for rigging and some additional equipment are the main reasons for the price differential. It would be worthwhile to see a dollar breakdown of above.
I believe that hull construction, oversized equiptment, some for rigging and some additional equipment are the main reasons for the price differential. It would be worthwhile to see a dollar breakdown of above.
Fred, it depends on ...
What you're going to use the car for, and location, location, location. I don't have a BMW, but I do drive a 1990 Porsche. Is it worth twice as much as a Chevy? YES, and plenty more! I say that knowing that it has out-lasted and will likely out-perform (on the track) a Chevy that was originally half its price back in 1990. As for the house in Boston vs. one in FL. Location matters more than almost anything else. If it didn't, houses in Beverly Hills, CA or Palm Beach, FL or mid-town Manhattan would cost the same as the same sized house in rural Mississippi. Sometimes you actually do get what you pay for! ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
What you're going to use the car for, and location, location, location. I don't have a BMW, but I do drive a 1990 Porsche. Is it worth twice as much as a Chevy? YES, and plenty more! I say that knowing that it has out-lasted and will likely out-perform (on the track) a Chevy that was originally half its price back in 1990. As for the house in Boston vs. one in FL. Location matters more than almost anything else. If it didn't, houses in Beverly Hills, CA or Palm Beach, FL or mid-town Manhattan would cost the same as the same sized house in rural Mississippi. Sometimes you actually do get what you pay for! ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
something to be said for beauty
Those of us in the daysailer class may not be able to relate to this weeks quiz exactly, But I saw an $8,000 12 foot row boat once. I didn't buy it, but I believe it was worth every penny. It was a floating work of art.
Those of us in the daysailer class may not be able to relate to this weeks quiz exactly, But I saw an $8,000 12 foot row boat once. I didn't buy it, but I believe it was worth every penny. It was a floating work of art.
Include All Factors:
Skill, ability, enjoyment, affordable, entertainment, seaworthy, safety, plus other factors apply. Love of sailing is first. Can a total loss be taken with no insurance? Does sailing in a storm get included in good experiences? Out on the water is what it's all about. Respect your and all others sailboats.
Skill, ability, enjoyment, affordable, entertainment, seaworthy, safety, plus other factors apply. Love of sailing is first. Can a total loss be taken with no insurance? Does sailing in a storm get included in good experiences? Out on the water is what it's all about. Respect your and all others sailboats.
Gord, I think I'd get more than 28 feet...
Cost is largely determined by length. But it's even more determined by displacement, and also by systems, construction technique, and finish. Even if I were looking to build my fantasy 36-footer, it still would be a boat that would displaces no more than 5 tons, that sleeps at most five, that has one, manual head, that has its first five feet dedicated to a collision compartment and storage, that has it aft eight feet dedicated to cockpit and lockers, that doesn't try for standing headroom forward of the mast, that has no generator, no power winches, no power windlass, no bow thruster, and no AC, that has very little exterior brightwork, that shows simply the unfinished, inner part of the hull on most interior surfaces (something that I think looks quite fine on a cold-molded hull, but that a lot of people would view as "rough"), that has at most two cabins, that has no more than 12' of beam, and that sails circles around most production 40 footers. Yachts get expensive partly because people want them fat, stuffed with the interior of a modern condominium, and full of push-button, powered systems. Both low-end and high-end builders aim for those long checklists, though in different ways. People would get more boat and better quality for a less money if they went for good design done simply and straightforwardly. But there's a precious small market for that.
Cost is largely determined by length. But it's even more determined by displacement, and also by systems, construction technique, and finish. Even if I were looking to build my fantasy 36-footer, it still would be a boat that would displaces no more than 5 tons, that sleeps at most five, that has one, manual head, that has its first five feet dedicated to a collision compartment and storage, that has it aft eight feet dedicated to cockpit and lockers, that doesn't try for standing headroom forward of the mast, that has no generator, no power winches, no power windlass, no bow thruster, and no AC, that has very little exterior brightwork, that shows simply the unfinished, inner part of the hull on most interior surfaces (something that I think looks quite fine on a cold-molded hull, but that a lot of people would view as "rough"), that has at most two cabins, that has no more than 12' of beam, and that sails circles around most production 40 footers. Yachts get expensive partly because people want them fat, stuffed with the interior of a modern condominium, and full of push-button, powered systems. Both low-end and high-end builders aim for those long checklists, though in different ways. People would get more boat and better quality for a less money if they went for good design done simply and straightforwardly. But there's a precious small market for that.
Perfection has a price, not necessarily a value.
Like all products at the top of their category, the last percentage of excellence - be it equipment, fit and finish, seaworthiness, or ocean performance - all come dearly and the cost is exaggerated by its rarity in the market. The production boats listed are tremendous values because their engineering and design experience has been applied toward making compromises away from the cost of perfection, while the designers at Swan, Oyster, and Hallberg apply their skills toward removing such compromises. Just as the buyer of a Bentley isn't shopping against an Acura, the Acura buyer benefits from a business where perfection has a market. I suspect most Swan buyers sacrifice less financially for their purchase than the buyers of Catalinas. The battle for value in the production boats is cutthroat which makes the boats ther rest of us buy almost a steal.
Like all products at the top of their category, the last percentage of excellence - be it equipment, fit and finish, seaworthiness, or ocean performance - all come dearly and the cost is exaggerated by its rarity in the market. The production boats listed are tremendous values because their engineering and design experience has been applied toward making compromises away from the cost of perfection, while the designers at Swan, Oyster, and Hallberg apply their skills toward removing such compromises. Just as the buyer of a Bentley isn't shopping against an Acura, the Acura buyer benefits from a business where perfection has a market. I suspect most Swan buyers sacrifice less financially for their purchase than the buyers of Catalinas. The battle for value in the production boats is cutthroat which makes the boats ther rest of us buy almost a steal.
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