60 best Boats 30' and under

[Project_Mayhem]

I'm looking for more of a cruiser with better and faster sailing ability than my O'Day 25. Most of the time it sails OK but the number of times that I've gotten it to tack in the past five years can be counted on two hands. It simply doesnt have the momentum to power through the wind. The shoal keel isn't helping any. I miss how I can spin a dinghy on a dime. The C30 with its fin keel had a bit of that. I haven't been on many other boats over 20ft.


As you can imagine, I'm trying to avoid full keel boats. While very comfortable, they're usually slow and don't turn well. A Nor'sea would be at the top of my list if I was considering coastal or offshore sailing. I find more modern designs more pleasing to the eye but can appreciate some of the designs from the 60's.


@Tally Ho I think your 280 might be at my marina. Small world! She's still looking great! I don't mind fiberglass interiors. They're easy to clean and they don't show age


The Pogo 30 is about ten times my budget of 20-30k

 

[Alan Gomes]

Most of the time it sails OK but the number of times that I've gotten it to tack in the past five years can be counted on two hands. It simply doesnt have the momentum to power through the wind.

Have you tried backwinding the jib?

 

[dlochner]

'm looking for more of a cruiser with better and faster sailing ability than my O'Day 25. Most of the time it sails OK but the number of times that I've gotten it to tack in the past five years can be counted on two hands. It simply doesnt have the momentum to power through the wind. The shoal keel isn't helping any. I miss how I can spin a dinghy on a dime. The C30 with its fin keel had a bit of that. I haven't been on many other boats over 20ft.

This is as much an issue with technique as it is the boat. Build up speed begin the tack at the top of the wave, tack as you go down the wave and let the jib drive the bow over as @Alan Gomes suggests by backwinding it. Once the bow is through the wind release and trim the jib.

If you try to tack while in the trough of the wind, you will have trouble. There is less wind and trying to sail uphill will slow the boat down and you won't be able to make the turn.

Jibbing is the opposite, jibe in the trough. Less wind and more of the mainsail is protected by the wave behind you. Boat speed will also be higher since you just surfed down the wave lowering the apparent wind.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Have you tried backwinding the jib?

Yup. Most of the time the boat wont get far enough into the wind to do so. I have no issues when sailing other boats

This is as much an issue with technique as it is the boat. Build up speed begin the tack at the top of the wave, tack as you go down the wave and let the jib drive the bow over as @Alan Gomes suggests by backwinding it. Once the bow is through the wind release and trim the jib.

If you try to tack while in the trough of the wind, you will have trouble. There is less wind and trying to sail uphill will slow the boat down and you won't be able to make the turn.

Jibbing is the opposite, jibe in the trough. Less wind and more of the mainsail is protected by the wave behind you. Boat speed will also be higher since you just surfed down the wave lowering the apparent wind.

I've tried using waves to my advantage without much more success. Most of the time the boat will go straight up wind, stall for a few seconds before falling back

 

[Alan Gomes]

Yup. Most of the time the boat wont get far enough into the wind to do so. I have no issues when sailing other boats

I've tried using waves to my advantage without much more success. Most of the time the boat will go straight up wind, stall for a few seconds before falling back

I still think it has to do with technique.

When you come about are you just shoving the tiller over hard? Are you trying to come about from more of a close reach or are you making a good turn of speed on a close hauled course before you initiate your tack? It just doesn't make sense to me that you can't get the bow of a boat like that across the wind at least enough to get assistance from a backwinded jib to push you around the rest of the way. That sounds more like a struggle you'd have with a Hobie 14 than an O'Day 25!

 

[Boomer2it]

Biased, but I'd to see the early 80's Hunter Cherubini 30 on the list. Solid build and still sailing strong

 

[dLj]

Biased, but I'd to see the early 80's Hunter Cherubini 30 on the list. Solid build and still sailing strong

Id second this - excellent sailing boats and great interior space. They also sail very well!

I'd be happy costal cruising them, but off- shore I would personally look to beef up some of structure. Buying one, costal cruising, then selling and buying a boat designed more for ocean passages could be good plan. Well, unless I had the time and desire to do the upgrades myself...

dj

 

[Project_Mayhem]

When you come about are you just shoving the tiller over hard? Are you trying to come about from more of a close reach or are you making a good turn of speed on a close hauled course before you initiate your tack?

Tried both techniques. Same result. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm dragging two props?

Biased, but I'd to see the early 80's Hunter Cherubini 30 on the list. Solid build and still sailing strong

I was under the impression that most, but not all, Hunters made better RV's than sailboats. The Cherubini's also had a steel keel if I'm not mistaken? This should receive some interesting responses on a Hunter heavy forum

 

[dlochner]

Tried both techniques. Same result. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm dragging two props?

Why are you dragging 2 props?

 

[PaulK]

Makes one wonder how clean the bottom is, too.

 

[FastOlson]

Tried both techniques. Same result. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm dragging two props?

I was under the impression that most, but not all, Hunters made better RV's than sailboats. The Cherubini's also had a steel keel if I'm not mistaken? This should receive some interesting responses on a Hunter heavy forum

I worked a boat show in '77 adjacent to a new Hunter with a lead keel. It had copious amounts of fairing around the keel to hull joint to fill in many places where the top of the keel casting had voids. Their general build quality was very poor. OK boat for protected waters, for sure. And, while not the only builder aiming at the "uninformed new buyer" market, one of the most successful ones. At the same show were some truly awful "sail boats" from Bayliner/USYachts. And along with the Reinell 22 and 26 sailboats, these defined the "bargain" end of the market. (sigh)
As the saying goes: "it was the best of times and the worst of times."


On a positive note I have a several friends that have sailed O'Day 25's for years and love 'em. Keep the little outboard tilted up and clear when under sail, bottom clean, and if the main is old and resembles a flour sack - replace it. Great little pocket cruisers! Easy to sail and wonderful for a couple to cruise on for days at a time. The rig is not that large or really tall, so it's trailerable to visit faraway places, too.

 

[shemandr]

[QUOTE="Project_Mayhem, post: 1807704, member: 142967”] ... I was under the impression that most, but not all, Hunters made better RV's than sailboats... [/QUOTE]
I just don’t think that’s true. My H356 sailed very well. I chartered a H27 and in my opinion it was a pretty nimble sailer. I think a lot of the negative about Hunters as sailing vessels, or safety issues, is just marketing dis-information. No they are not Hinckleys. But I wouldn’t mind mixing it up with a similar length Hinckley on the race course in my 356. Kicked a Little Harbor's butt in one offshore race, so ….
The difference is that my Hunter was pretty noisy in waves. There was creaking and groaning. People tell me that isn't what you hear in a Hinckley - but I've never had the off shore experience on one. Yeah the 356 bends and twists some. It's not made to be an offshore boat - at least not blue water.
Overall, I think the RV comparison is a bad rap.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Tried both techniques. Same result. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm dragging two props?

You may have misunderstood my point (and likely because I was not clear). Shoving over the tiller hard and/or coming about from a close reach are things I would not do if I wanted to make the boat come about.

 

[dLj]

I was under the impression that most, but not all, Hunters made better RV's than sailboats. The Cherubini's also had a steel keel if I'm not mistaken? This should receive some interesting responses on a Hunter heavy forum

I've sailed several Hunters, several different years. Don't know if you find my comment "interesting" but they all sailed very well.

I've also sailed Persons, Catalinas, Bristol's, and about 20 or so other brands and models of sailboats -monohulls, catamarans and trimarans - day sailors, coastal cruisers and "blue water" boats.

I owned a 1977 Cherubini 30 - it had a lead keel. It sailed very well and had surprisingly large space inside so I would have not had a problem living in it if I'd wanted at the time. Does that make it an RV? If so, it was one fine sailing RV.

The question I have for you, have you ever sailed one? Or are you just regurgitating?

dj

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Why are you dragging 2 props?

The OMC Saildrive is rather unreliable. Like many owners of this fine hunk of aluminum, I also have an outboard. The outboard bracket needs to be tilted more to come out of the water. This O'Day is never ending source of projects and I have a finite amount of motivation and time. I must pick and choose my battles wisely

You may have misunderstood my point (and likely because I was not clear). Shoving over the tiller hard and/or coming about from a close reach are things I would not do if I wanted to make the boat come about.

I've tried pushing the tiller over fast and slow. Slow is usually worse

I've sailed several Hunters, several different years. Don't know if you find my comment "interesting" but they all sailed very well.

I've also sailed Persons, Catalinas, Bristol's, and about 20 or so other brands and models of sailboats -monohulls, catamarans and trimarans - day sailors, coastal cruisers and "blue water" boats.

I owned a 1977 Cherubini 30 - it had a lead keel. It sailed very well and had surprisingly large space inside so I would have not had a problem living in it if I'd wanted at the time. Does that make it an RV? If so, it was one fine sailing RV.

The question I have for you, have you ever sailed one? Or are you just regurgitating?

dj

Based on feedback from owners and non-owners alike. I know not all Hunters will sail the same. It's like comparing Chevy Spark to a Corvette. Totally different vehicles. I thought my own comment that Hunters sail like RV's would yield some interesting responses. I asked as I suspected that it was not true

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Now that we have that out of the way, what should I look for when researching boats? How can I figure out what a boat was built for if I can't rely on the specs?

 

[dlochner]

Based on feedback from owners and non-owners alike. I know not all Hunters will sail the same. It's like comparing Chevy Spark to a Corvette. Totally different vehicles. I thought my own comment that Hunters sail like RV's would yield some interesting responses. I asked as I suspected that it was not true

Warren Luhrs was an innovative racer and designer. I would expect many of his boats would be fairly quick sailboats. Some of his innovations haven't stood the test of time, the unstayed mast and the B&R rig come to mind.

 

[shemandr]

Really?
It seems like the unstayed mast was pretty successful a la Nonsuch and Freedom. The Hunter version, which I don’t remember the name of, was popular with at least one owner I met in an anchorage. They raved about it.
The B&R rig? I had one and I thought it was fine. Better than fine. I think it's been written in these threads that there isn’t a documented failure of the rig i.e. dismasting. I’m sure there have been rigs lost but I’m unaware that those losses are any greater than any other rig.
I’m not sure Lures is responsible for the arch but it was another innovation from Hunter that was in my opinion a great step forward. Furthermore, my 356 was the only boat I owned that had most or all of the sub waterline thru hulls in one location, under the companionway steps and easily accessed. That is good design. I could go on but the bad rap on Hunter is, in my opinion, BS.

 

[FastOlson]

The thing about the B&R rig, that many newbies do not understand is that the cost of a re-rig is quite high compared to a conventional rig. I know a long term pro rigger and he sez that explaining that is a painful awakening for most Hunter owners. And then, like any rig with swept spreaders there is the problem with chafe on the main when off the wind.
This is unrelated to the unstayed spar on the Hinterhoeller boats, altho they can also invoke real sticker shock if the spar needs replacement. It has special requirements where it must be strengthened at the deck piercing point.

While all boats will have costs with new rigs or spars, some designs are speedier than others.

 

[dlochner]

Really?
It seems like the unstayed mast was pretty successful a la Nonsuch and Freedom. The Hunter version, which I don’t remember the name of, was popular with at least one owner I met in an anchorage. They raved about it.
The B&R rig? I had one and I thought it was fine. Better than fine. I think it's been written in these threads that there isn’t a documented failure of the rig i.e. dismasting. I’m sure there have been rigs lost but I’m unaware that those losses are any greater than any other rig.
I’m not sure Lures is responsible for the arch but it was another innovation from Hunter that was in my opinion a great step forward. Furthermore, my 356 was the only boat I owned that had most or all of the sub waterline thru hulls in one location, under the companionway steps and easily accessed. That is good design. I could go on but the bad rap on Hunter is, in my opinion, BS.

To the best of my knowledge, no one makes a larger boat with an unstayed mast. It was an innovative idea, build a 30' boat with no rigging to tune and in the case of the Nonsuch, only one sail. Some people liked them, many more didn't. Sort of like limburger cheese, an interesting flavor, but not for most people.

The B&R rig is too difficult to tune properly for most people and the extra rigging an unnecessary expense when it is time re-rig. Recently there was a discussion here about re-rigging a B&R mast and the prebend had to be induced while the mast is off the boat. That seems an unnecessarily complex task for the average sailor. That few if any other builders used the B&R rig is telling.

Our sport needs innovation. Some innovation works well, some not so much.

 

[dLj]

Now that we have that out of the way, what should I look for when researching boats? How can I figure out what a boat was built for if I can't rely on the specs?

You ask nearly an impossible question to answer.

Your budget is the $20 to $30k. So you are looking at used boats. You want to coastal sail, some overnights and you like heavy weather. Enclosed head and internal engine - you prefer gasoline but could do diesel. Personally I would never want a gasoline engine, but that's me.

So making a list and looking at "the numbers" i feel is an exercise in futility. Given your price point, what I feel you should be looking at are the boats that are for sale in the region where you are looking. Look at 30, 40 - pick a number - of boats in your area and see which ones you like. Make a list of each boat you see, list out the good and bad etc of each boat you visit.

The more time you spend looking at actual boats, compare what you see to the numbers quoted for that boat, and make your conclusions.

Boats in you size/price range should show a large number of boats for sale. Each of them will be aged (not to say old) so in each will find that specific systems will likely have been changed/upgraded/degraded to varying degrees. There are few boats you should not visit based solely on original specs/numbers. You are really looking for the boat that best fits what you want.

Mainesail has a writeup on inspecting the aged boat (something like that). He recommends a moisture meter that is quite inexpensive and works well. I would recommend buying one, with the calibration plate, and go look at boats. Find one that you feel is worth looking at and then check with the moisture meter to see about wet decks. I would also recommend not wasting time on boats what might have cored hulls, but that's just me. Otherwise, just go look. Make lists. See systems. See what you like. Then ask us questions about what you see.

dj